EU Stealing Your Savings
19 March 2013, 02:30 PM
#61
Not sure what all this fuss is about.
UK goverment's already done this over here, e.g.:
- £66Bn cash bailout into RBS and Llyods alone. That's £2,300 from each of the 29million taxpayers in the UK. It's taken in instalments instead of a 'one-off' hit.
- Gordon Brown's tax 'raid' on pension schemes, estimated £5Bn p.a.
- Etc..
Same thing really except over here it's the taxpayer/pension saver who's taking the hit while in Cyprus it's depositors.
They'll live.
And has any of you any better ideas as to how you raise 6Bn Euro at short notice in a tax haven?
UK goverment's already done this over here, e.g.:
- £66Bn cash bailout into RBS and Llyods alone. That's £2,300 from each of the 29million taxpayers in the UK. It's taken in instalments instead of a 'one-off' hit.
- Gordon Brown's tax 'raid' on pension schemes, estimated £5Bn p.a.
- Etc..
Same thing really except over here it's the taxpayer/pension saver who's taking the hit while in Cyprus it's depositors.
They'll live.
And has any of you any better ideas as to how you raise 6Bn Euro at short notice in a tax haven?
19 March 2013, 03:18 PM
#63
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I think the real answer,purely from a common sense point of view, is to get away from the self seeking prongo's in charge of the Eu and allow our own government to re-generate the strong economy as it was as when NL were elected and before they had a chance to sell us down the river. The last thing we want to do is to let that prat ***** get his hands on the economy for a start.
What are your ideas for a proper solution?
It would be good also to have a PM who keeps the promises he made in order to get elected!
Les
19 March 2013, 03:26 PM
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Maybe Telboy can comment on this, but isn't doing something like this likely to seriously further undermine any confidence that there is left for anyone to invest in the Eurozone? If they can do it to Cyrpus they can do it anywhere. It is unprecedented!
This seems to me like a really stupid thing to do for the bigger longer term picture, but maybe I just don't get it.
This seems to me like a really stupid thing to do for the bigger longer term picture, but maybe I just don't get it.
Personally i don't think it will seriously undermine that confidence, but it won't do it any good, that's for sure. All these peripheral basket cases are still seen as exceptions, and to a large extent they are. But confidence is a human thing, and if that goes, who knows where it will end. For the moment, the doom merchants of the EU (count me amongst them) still have a place at the table. More sellotape, more kicking the can down the road. It has to end somewhere. The trouble is, nobody knows where. You know my views on a new world order and actions like this do nothing to detract me from that view.
19 March 2013, 03:31 PM
#65
I think the real answer,purely from a common sense point of view, is to get away from the self seeking prongo's in charge of the Eu and allow our own government to re-generate the strong economy as it was as when NL were elected and before they had a chance to sell us down the river.
We have still got cuts to make, but the speed at which these are being managed is harming our growth. Since the next election is still quite a way away, expect more of the same. But I'm with the IMF: we need growth.
19 March 2013, 03:35 PM
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I am not a financial expert, but so far it seems to me that being part of the Eu and kow towing to all their orders and demands has not done us any significant good so far. Why is the Euro about to collapse anyway and what is the real reason for the present weakness of the Pound? I remember the Labour treasury minister leaving a message for his Conservative successor to say that there was no money left! What does that tell us?
I think the real answer,purely from a common sense point of view, is to get away from the self seeking prongo's in charge of the Eu and allow our own government to re-generate the strong economy as it was as when NL were elected and before they had a chance to sell us down the river. The last thing we want to do is to let that prat ***** get his hands on the economy for a start.
What are your ideas for a proper solution?
It would be good also to have a PM who keeps the promises he made in order to get elected!
Les
I think the real answer,purely from a common sense point of view, is to get away from the self seeking prongo's in charge of the Eu and allow our own government to re-generate the strong economy as it was as when NL were elected and before they had a chance to sell us down the river. The last thing we want to do is to let that prat ***** get his hands on the economy for a start.
What are your ideas for a proper solution?
It would be good also to have a PM who keeps the promises he made in order to get elected!
Les
So to summarise the above, you don't want the EU in charge and you don't want Labour in charge, you only want some, as yet defined, person or persons in control.
It's an absolute belter of a post
19 March 2013, 03:57 PM
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19 March 2013, 04:06 PM
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Not in the tree huggy sense, in the sense that the standard of living we've become accustomed to as the norm is way overdone, growth in capitalist society isn't (and cannot be) a one-way street, especially if it's built on borrowing. I just see a fairly significant correction in play, albeit at the early stages. Europe's problems are a microcosm of the world economy, in my opinion.
19 March 2013, 04:34 PM
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Yes you are dead right in this case, except I assume you meant "not yet defined" person in control. I cant think of a suitable candidate at the moment,,,can you?
So pleasant to have your support for once, I do hope that you are not going to spoil it all by claiming it to be a footling attempt at sarcasm!
Les
19 March 2013, 04:36 PM
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Cypriot Finance Minister reported as having resigned 
Oh what a mess
I wonder which Russian oligach gave him the option to resign or start choosing a headstone
Oh what a mess
I wonder which Russian oligach gave him the option to resign or start choosing a headstone
19 March 2013, 05:17 PM
#73
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I just took a look at the Cypriot tax system. 
I'm not sure anyone over there could find a way to actually have to pay any!!
Couple that with what the Govt has allowed to happen in their banking sector, and it's time to line their politicians up against a wall blindfolded!!
If I was a German, French etc... taxpayer I would NOT want my money bailing this lot out.
I'm not sure anyone over there could find a way to actually have to pay any!!
Couple that with what the Govt has allowed to happen in their banking sector, and it's time to line their politicians up against a wall blindfolded!!
If I was a German, French etc... taxpayer I would NOT want my money bailing this lot out.
19 March 2013, 05:26 PM
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Yes you are dead right in this case, except I assume you meant "not yet defined" person in control. I cant think of a suitable candidate at the moment,,,can you?
19 March 2013, 05:26 PM
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In Cyprus you have to opt IN to the taxation regime. Whoever thought the EU could work with all these ridiculous sideshow by-laws and financial non-regulations is beyond me
Story is now that the Finance Minister had his resignation rejected That's ok then. What a circus.
Story is now that the Finance Minister had his resignation rejected
That's ok then. What a circus.
19 March 2013, 07:17 PM
#77
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Not in the tree huggy sense, in the sense that the standard of living we've become accustomed to as the norm is way overdone, growth in capitalist society isn't (and cannot be) a one-way street, especially if it's built on borrowing. I just see a fairly significant correction in play, albeit at the early stages. Europe's problems are a microcosm of the world economy, in my opinion.
Yep. I suspect you may be right, and I have maintained pretty consistantly that thing are going to get much worse for the majority
one narrative that attempts to explain the current crisis goes, loosely, as follows:
By the 1970s, the post-war mixed economy model of capitalism had run out of puff. The long post war boom led to a lower rate of profit for capital as full employment meant workers received a bigger slice of the cake.
ultimately capitalism demands the best return on capital, not its most productive use
Unemployment coupled with the free-market reforms of the late 1970s and 1980s broke the power of industrial labor and shifted the focus of western economies from manufacturing to finance.
and financial capitalism delivered higher profits (better returns), and a by product was the suppressing wages (certainly real wages in the US have not risen for the last 30 years). But since market economies can only function if there is sufficient demand for goods and services, a way had to be found to boost consumption.
That was achieved through higher levels of personal debt, (the rise thru the 90's of cheap credit - underpinned by ever rising house prices) cheerfully provided by the newly liberalised financial services sector. Growth rates were kept artificially high, and the tax revenues thereby generated allowed governments to spend more than they could actually afford.
To complete the picture, the debt was shifted across national borders by globalisation, so China would lend America the money to buy the cheap industrial products being made in the factories of east Asia, and Germany would do the same for the less competitive members of the eurozone, such as Greece and Spain.
witness, as I did first hand, row upon row of brand new 50K Audi's used as taxi's in the Canary Islands and Athens airports -- I remember thinking at the time, "how the fvck do these peasants afford these cars"
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 19 March 2013 at 11:21 PM.
19 March 2013, 08:31 PM
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Since then he has contacted the Press to state that he hasn't.
But the mess continues - the vote has now taken place....
Drum roll please....
56 MPs can vote....
There were 36 votes against, and 19 abstentions.
One MP didn't even show up.
So what now?
But the mess continues - the vote has now taken place....
Drum roll please....
56 MPs can vote....
There were 36 votes against, and 19 abstentions.
One MP didn't even show up.
So what now?
Originally Posted by Mats Perrson (Open Europe)
Cyprus blinks: After some face-saving tweaks, but with a depositor levy of some sort remaining in place, another parliamentary vote is held and Cyprus approves the deal. The stakes are simply too high.
The eurozone blinks: Amid fears that a Cypriot exit from the euro will trigger widespread contagion, Germany and other Northern members might give Cyprus more flexible terms. But as German parties have said they won’t vote on the deal until the Cypriots have passed it, will the Bundestag and the Finnish Parliament approve such an agreement? After all, the German government is reasonable in its basic demand: that German taxpayers shouldn’t prop up a bloated financial sector dominated by Russian interests. Furthermore, will the ECB, which has been the most hawkish over Cyprus, withdraw liquidity for Cypriot banks as it has threatened?
Cyprus pursues 'other plans': President Anastasiades suggested today that his government is making 'other plans'. It’s not clear what those are, but as we have long noted, additional rescue cash from Russia remains one option. Other options include a financial transaction tax or plans to convert deposits into deposit certificates with fixed long term maturities. But there are numerous problems with these options.
Cyprus goes down: No compromise can be found and Cyprus runs out of cash. The two largest Cypriot banks would go without recapitalisation and could see their liquidity assistance (sanctioned by the ECB via the Bank of Cyprus) cut off, leading to insolvency and collapse. In turn, this would put the €30bn of insured deposits at risk, since the government would not be able to guarantee such a figure. Combined, this would bring down the Cypriot financial system. With the financial sector close to or in the process of collapsing, and no support to be had from the eurozone or ECB, Cyprus could even be forced to ditch the euro and begin printing its own new currency. This currency would have little international trust and could lead to a spiral of hyperinflation and further political and economic chaos.
The eurozone blinks: Amid fears that a Cypriot exit from the euro will trigger widespread contagion, Germany and other Northern members might give Cyprus more flexible terms. But as German parties have said they won’t vote on the deal until the Cypriots have passed it, will the Bundestag and the Finnish Parliament approve such an agreement? After all, the German government is reasonable in its basic demand: that German taxpayers shouldn’t prop up a bloated financial sector dominated by Russian interests. Furthermore, will the ECB, which has been the most hawkish over Cyprus, withdraw liquidity for Cypriot banks as it has threatened?
Cyprus pursues 'other plans': President Anastasiades suggested today that his government is making 'other plans'. It’s not clear what those are, but as we have long noted, additional rescue cash from Russia remains one option. Other options include a financial transaction tax or plans to convert deposits into deposit certificates with fixed long term maturities. But there are numerous problems with these options.
Cyprus goes down: No compromise can be found and Cyprus runs out of cash. The two largest Cypriot banks would go without recapitalisation and could see their liquidity assistance (sanctioned by the ECB via the Bank of Cyprus) cut off, leading to insolvency and collapse. In turn, this would put the €30bn of insured deposits at risk, since the government would not be able to guarantee such a figure. Combined, this would bring down the Cypriot financial system. With the financial sector close to or in the process of collapsing, and no support to be had from the eurozone or ECB, Cyprus could even be forced to ditch the euro and begin printing its own new currency. This currency would have little international trust and could lead to a spiral of hyperinflation and further political and economic chaos.
19 March 2013, 11:36 PM
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Could the EU be trying to get rid of Cyprus, who are preventing Turkey from joining the EZ?
The Turkish economy is in growth, whereas we know the state Cyprus is in. Then again, why would Turkey want to join now everyone can see what the EU is really like.
The Turkish economy is in growth, whereas we know the state Cyprus is in. Then again, why would Turkey want to join now everyone can see what the EU is really like.
20 March 2013, 01:33 PM
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Have I got this right?
If the Germans stick their boot in and insist that Cypriots take the hit on their savings then if/when the banks open there will be a run and they will collapse with literally no money left. So the Russian boys will lose out big time as their dodgy money will be gone.
So in that eventuality the Russians are going to have to sort this mess out.
Buy the oil/gas exploration rights?
dl
If the Germans stick their boot in and insist that Cypriots take the hit on their savings then if/when the banks open there will be a run and they will collapse with literally no money left. So the Russian boys will lose out big time as their dodgy money will be gone.
So in that eventuality the Russians are going to have to sort this mess out.
Buy the oil/gas exploration rights?
dl
20 March 2013, 02:13 PM
#86
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Have I got this right?
If the Germans stick their boot in and insist that Cypriots take the hit on their savings then if/when the banks open there will be a run and they will collapse with literally no money left. So the Russian boys will lose out big time as their dodgy money will be gone.
So in that eventuality the Russians are going to have to sort this mess out.
Buy the oil/gas exploration rights?
dl
If the Germans stick their boot in and insist that Cypriots take the hit on their savings then if/when the banks open there will be a run and they will collapse with literally no money left. So the Russian boys will lose out big time as their dodgy money will be gone.
So in that eventuality the Russians are going to have to sort this mess out.
Buy the oil/gas exploration rights?
dl
The alternative of the Russians is taking over the gas fields. The EU gets 34% of it's gas from Russia and Russia has form in cutting off supplies as it showed when it did so to Ukraine.
20 March 2013, 02:16 PM
#87
Cyprus accepts a deposit tax - soon as banks re open - run on bank - collapse
Cyprus rejects a deposit tax - banks may never open again - collapse
EU give in and offer favorable terms to Cyprus - Greece Portugal Spain Ireland kickoff - Merkel loses job
Russia steps in and saves Cyprus - EU snubbed - unknown outcome - possibly Cyprus leaves Euro/EU
Cyprus rejects a deposit tax - banks may never open again - collapse
EU give in and offer favorable terms to Cyprus - Greece Portugal Spain Ireland kickoff - Merkel loses job
Russia steps in and saves Cyprus - EU snubbed - unknown outcome - possibly Cyprus leaves Euro/EU
20 March 2013, 02:20 PM
#88
Part of the banks should be nationalised if they are bailed out by a government.
If this doesn't happen the same mistakes will get repeated.
It is nice to play on someone else's back without facing the consequences, isn't it?
Read this when you get a chance: http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...23more&act=url
If this doesn't happen the same mistakes will get repeated.
It is nice to play on someone else's back without facing the consequences, isn't it?
Read this when you get a chance: http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...23more&act=url
