EU Stealing Your Savings
#152
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Oh I completely realise that there are pro EU people out there, what I am amazed at is that they support such a obviously anti-democratic regime for all of the European member states, not just ours. If you think that makes me a little Englander then maybe you should check your vision before going for the ad hominen attack
#154
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Well it looks like the flood gates have been opened. So much for Cyprus being unique!
Originally Posted by Jeroen Dijsselbloem
What we've done last night is what I call pushing back the risks.
If there is a risk in a bank, our first question should be 'Okay, what are you in the bank going to do about that? What can you do to recapitalise yourself?'. If the bank can't do it, then we'll talk to the shareholders and the bondholders, we'll ask them to contribute in recapitalising the bank, and if necessary the uninsured deposit holders.
If we want to have a healthy, sound financial sector, the only way is to say, 'Look, there where you take on the risks, you must deal with them, and if you can't deal with them, then you shouldn't have taken them on'.
The consequences may be that it's the end of story, and that is an approach that I think, now that we are out of the heat of the crisis, we should take.
If there is a risk in a bank, our first question should be 'Okay, what are you in the bank going to do about that? What can you do to recapitalise yourself?'. If the bank can't do it, then we'll talk to the shareholders and the bondholders, we'll ask them to contribute in recapitalising the bank, and if necessary the uninsured deposit holders.
If we want to have a healthy, sound financial sector, the only way is to say, 'Look, there where you take on the risks, you must deal with them, and if you can't deal with them, then you shouldn't have taken them on'.
The consequences may be that it's the end of story, and that is an approach that I think, now that we are out of the heat of the crisis, we should take.
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So you mean that money isn't being taken from peoples bank accounts then? The whole point of this thread? Saying that it is outrageous is "parrot-style, regurgitated prejudice" France and Holland's referendums ignored? Irish told to vote again because they got the wrong answer when asked, TWICE? The Greek PM removed when he said that he was going to hold a referendum. Bellisconi just removed from office? Those things represent successful and healthy democratic process to you? How bad does it have to get before that light bulb goes on for you?
#156
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So you mean that money isn't being taken from peoples bank accounts then? The whole point of this thread? Saying that it is outrageous is "parrot-style, regurgitated prejudice" France and Holland's referendums ignored? Irish told to vote again because they got the wrong answer when asked, TWICE? The Greek PM removed when he said that he was going to hold a referendum. Bellisconi just removed from office? Those things represent successful and healthy democratic process to you? How bad does it have to get before that light bulb goes on for you?
There are some good bits, but the bad is beginning to outweigh them...
#157
I have to say that I cannot think of anything which is good enough about the Eu to overcome the disaster it would be for our country if we became federated to it.
Unless of course you find the thought of an intolerant totalitarian government and the loss of any significant democracy appealing!
Les
Unless of course you find the thought of an intolerant totalitarian government and the loss of any significant democracy appealing!
Les
#158
"Savers will be raided to save euro in future crisis, says eurozone chief"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...one-chief.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...one-chief.html
#159
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"Savers will be raided to save euro in future crisis, says eurozone chief"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...one-chief.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...one-chief.html
#160
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- When a bank goes bust you lose all your money unless; there's sufficient money in your deposit protection scheme; another big, unaffected bank takes it over; the Govt bails out the bank; or the EU, ECB or IMF, etc come up with a bailout plan to recover some or all of of the money. But "EU rescues (most) Cypriot deposits, wealthy depositors lose out!" just doesn't make good headlines.
The whole point of this thread?
- Unmitigated EU-bashing. Have you not noticed the title?
Saying that it is outrageous is "parrot-style, regurgitated prejudice" France and Holland's referendums ignored?
- Ignored? The French and Dutch rejected the EU constitution in 2005 so now there's no EU constition. Ignored? How?
Irish told to vote again because they got the wrong answer when asked, TWICE?
- Irish were the only contry to hold a referendun on Lisbon treaty. 67% of them approved it second time round. In an EU-rigged ballot, no doubt!
The Greek PM removed when he said that he was going to hold a referendum?
- Papandreou resigned to "make way for a govt of national unity" that could run the country in the worst debt crises Greece has known.
Bellisconi just removed from office?
- He lost his majority in a debt crisis budget vote in the Italian parliment. When that happens you resign. It's happened in Westminster, too.
But as we know... it's all the fault of the EU!
#162
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I have to say that I cannot think of anything which is good enough about the Eu to overcome the disaster it would be for our country if we became federated to it.
Unless of course you find the thought of an intolerant totalitarian government and the loss of any significant democracy appealing!
Les
Unless of course you find the thought of an intolerant totalitarian government and the loss of any significant democracy appealing!
Les
Ruled from abroad? What do we have now? Our daft governments just enforce every crazy law...
We pay in? Yes, but we can take out if we need to, and we have done.
I'm not sure what you think is so good about the UK?
#163
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#164
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The brinkmanship that has been on display over the Cypriot financial crisis makes obvious to all but the wilfully blind the level of political determination in Brussels to save the euro at all costs. No amount of empirical economic evidence – or misery for ordinary people – matters when the dreams of the continent’s elite are threatened.
After the French and Dutch rejected the European Constitution in 2005, the then European Commissioner for Communications, Margot Wallström, put it perfectly. She and the other EU cheerleaders had invested “a lot of energy and political capital” in the project, she declared, and they were not going to give up on it. No matter what the people said, no matter what the economic realities were.
Five years later, this delusion in the face of brute reality has reached its apogee in Cyprus.
How can it be that the German parliament gets to vote on the wholesale theft of money from richer Cypriot depositors, while the Cypriot parliament has no such voice? Instead the theft is labelled “restructuring” – and as such there will be no Cypriot democratic oversight of the economic rape of their country. Be under no illusion: this is being done not to solve the Cypriot economy, but to save the euro. The crashing irony is that, in their February elections, the Cypriots threw out the Communists. One could ask why they bothered.
But at what cost is the euro being saved? What we can see here is an almost deliberate attempt to set the people of Cyprus against each other. By restricting the damage to those who have deposited 100,000 euros in the bank (rather than across the board, as was the previous suggestion) they will be undermining social cohesion, pitting those with against those without. It destroys any pretence that the EU has at its heart a belief in democracy, or in those warm words so often repeated about it being the guardian of essential “European” qualities. In truth it was only a fair-weather friend and its behaviour in this storm, as in others, is to drop these benevolent ideas like hot stones.
Worse still, Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the Dutchman who heads the Eurogroup of eurozone finance ministers, has made it clear that this is now the template for all eurozone countries. Think about that for a moment. These politicians really believe that all the money in the eurozone is actually theirs – as if people have it on sufferance, and not by rights. Since Dijsselbloem spoke, bank shares in Spain, France and Italy have collapsed: citizens of these countries not unreasonably fear the worst.
All this is done for the European elite’s devious ends. One of which is the so-called “Target 2”. This is the eurozone bank clearing system, by which private transfers of money from one member to another are cleared through the national central banks. If, for instance, 100 euros is moved from a Greek bank deposit to a German bank deposit, the Greek central bank ends up owing another 100 euros to the Bundesbank (through the European Central Bank).
At present, the Bundesbank is owed 600 billion euros thanks to Target 2, mainly as a result of capital flight from Mediterranean countries. But, unlike with normal debts, the debtor countries have no contract or understanding about how this should be repaid.
Cyprus has just been granted a 10 billion euro bail-out loan from the other eurozone countries. But the irony is that Cyprus is already in receipt of a bail-out worth 7.5 billion euros – this is the Target 2 debt of the central bank of Cyprus. And they are desperately trying to prevent this growing as a result of further capital flight.
Perhaps this is the most ominous result of the Cyprus debacle. While the details of the controls to prevent money leaving Cyprus are not yet known, they will quickly lead to euros in a bank account there being worth less than euros in bank accounts elsewhere.
I have been saying this since the start of the latest chapter of the crisis: that the level of risk and the prospects of contagion are such that those who have deposits in other southern European countries should get them out as soon as possible. Don’t just take my word for it. The economist and journalist Anatole Kaletsky yesterday made his support for my comments utterly clear on Twitter: “Anyone with more than 100,000 euros in a French, Spanish or Italian bank is crazy if individual, or criminally negligent if a company director.”
There is, however, a silver lining to all of this – a small one, but possibly the most important aspect in the whole sorry debacle. Cyprus is different from Greece, different from Ireland and different from Spain and Italy. In Cyprus we have a population that would prefer to leave the eurozone than comply with the privations of Germany and Brussels. We have a parliament that has already voted down one scheme, and is thus barred from debating this one. We have a Cypriot archbishop who supports his people rather than the EU. They are not happy and they are pointing to a new reality.
That David Cameron is welcoming these plans shows how far the British political class is from any ideals of democracy, accountability and liberty. Instead the future to him is a technocratic, post-democratic world, run in the most part by unelected, fanatical and deluded power-mongers in Brussels and Frankfurt.
After the French and Dutch rejected the European Constitution in 2005, the then European Commissioner for Communications, Margot Wallström, put it perfectly. She and the other EU cheerleaders had invested “a lot of energy and political capital” in the project, she declared, and they were not going to give up on it. No matter what the people said, no matter what the economic realities were.
Five years later, this delusion in the face of brute reality has reached its apogee in Cyprus.
How can it be that the German parliament gets to vote on the wholesale theft of money from richer Cypriot depositors, while the Cypriot parliament has no such voice? Instead the theft is labelled “restructuring” – and as such there will be no Cypriot democratic oversight of the economic rape of their country. Be under no illusion: this is being done not to solve the Cypriot economy, but to save the euro. The crashing irony is that, in their February elections, the Cypriots threw out the Communists. One could ask why they bothered.
But at what cost is the euro being saved? What we can see here is an almost deliberate attempt to set the people of Cyprus against each other. By restricting the damage to those who have deposited 100,000 euros in the bank (rather than across the board, as was the previous suggestion) they will be undermining social cohesion, pitting those with against those without. It destroys any pretence that the EU has at its heart a belief in democracy, or in those warm words so often repeated about it being the guardian of essential “European” qualities. In truth it was only a fair-weather friend and its behaviour in this storm, as in others, is to drop these benevolent ideas like hot stones.
Worse still, Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the Dutchman who heads the Eurogroup of eurozone finance ministers, has made it clear that this is now the template for all eurozone countries. Think about that for a moment. These politicians really believe that all the money in the eurozone is actually theirs – as if people have it on sufferance, and not by rights. Since Dijsselbloem spoke, bank shares in Spain, France and Italy have collapsed: citizens of these countries not unreasonably fear the worst.
All this is done for the European elite’s devious ends. One of which is the so-called “Target 2”. This is the eurozone bank clearing system, by which private transfers of money from one member to another are cleared through the national central banks. If, for instance, 100 euros is moved from a Greek bank deposit to a German bank deposit, the Greek central bank ends up owing another 100 euros to the Bundesbank (through the European Central Bank).
At present, the Bundesbank is owed 600 billion euros thanks to Target 2, mainly as a result of capital flight from Mediterranean countries. But, unlike with normal debts, the debtor countries have no contract or understanding about how this should be repaid.
Cyprus has just been granted a 10 billion euro bail-out loan from the other eurozone countries. But the irony is that Cyprus is already in receipt of a bail-out worth 7.5 billion euros – this is the Target 2 debt of the central bank of Cyprus. And they are desperately trying to prevent this growing as a result of further capital flight.
Perhaps this is the most ominous result of the Cyprus debacle. While the details of the controls to prevent money leaving Cyprus are not yet known, they will quickly lead to euros in a bank account there being worth less than euros in bank accounts elsewhere.
I have been saying this since the start of the latest chapter of the crisis: that the level of risk and the prospects of contagion are such that those who have deposits in other southern European countries should get them out as soon as possible. Don’t just take my word for it. The economist and journalist Anatole Kaletsky yesterday made his support for my comments utterly clear on Twitter: “Anyone with more than 100,000 euros in a French, Spanish or Italian bank is crazy if individual, or criminally negligent if a company director.”
There is, however, a silver lining to all of this – a small one, but possibly the most important aspect in the whole sorry debacle. Cyprus is different from Greece, different from Ireland and different from Spain and Italy. In Cyprus we have a population that would prefer to leave the eurozone than comply with the privations of Germany and Brussels. We have a parliament that has already voted down one scheme, and is thus barred from debating this one. We have a Cypriot archbishop who supports his people rather than the EU. They are not happy and they are pointing to a new reality.
That David Cameron is welcoming these plans shows how far the British political class is from any ideals of democracy, accountability and liberty. Instead the future to him is a technocratic, post-democratic world, run in the most part by unelected, fanatical and deluded power-mongers in Brussels and Frankfurt.
#165
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So you mean that money isn't being taken from peoples bank accounts then?
- When a bank goes bust you lose all your money unless; there's sufficient money in your deposit protection scheme; another big, unaffected bank takes it over; the Govt bails out the bank; or the EU, ECB or IMF, etc come up with a bailout plan to recover some or all of of the money. But "EU rescues (most) Cypriot deposits, wealthy depositors lose out!" just doesn't make good headlines.
- When a bank goes bust you lose all your money unless; there's sufficient money in your deposit protection scheme; another big, unaffected bank takes it over; the Govt bails out the bank; or the EU, ECB or IMF, etc come up with a bailout plan to recover some or all of of the money. But "EU rescues (most) Cypriot deposits, wealthy depositors lose out!" just doesn't make good headlines.
Well it wasn't the people of Greece who voted for the troika, it wasn't the people of Italy who voted for Monti, it wasn't the people of Cyprus who voted for the theft of their deposits. The ethos of the EU is "ever closer Union", its in the treaty of Rome. The management style is ever disaster is an opportunity (or beneficial crisis) to extend powers over member states. The bailouts themselves breach the EU's own rules. Remember we pay membership fees of over £50m /day to this club, give away the right to make our laws to foreigners whose priorities are different to our own for what reason? Cui bono? Ours? When things go t!ts up, you need more accountability not less... There is no rational reason to say we need to be or should be members of this club.
Last edited by warrenm2; 26 March 2013 at 01:12 AM. Reason: typos
#166
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After the French and Dutch rejected the European Constitution in 2005, the then European Commissioner for Communications, Margot Wallström, put it perfectly. She and the other EU cheerleaders had invested “a lot of energy and political capital” in the project, she declared, and they were not going to give up on it. No matter what the people said, no matter what the economic realities were.
#167
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Well quite SW, that IS the reality of "the project". That is why it is totally incompatible with the UK culture and history and why we must leave with all haste
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#170
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But let's face it tel, only THREE countries in the EC put no restrictions in place on immigration, and the other two, Sweden and Ireland, at that time needed low paid workers.
Why did we not put any restrictions on? Because NOW we will find it EXTREMELY difficult to restrict the new lot, who will simply take us to the ECHR claiming discrimination...and most probably, win
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It's referring to the capital controls. The Euros outside of Cyprus can be sent anywhere in the EZ at an unrestricted amount, however, the Euros in accounts in Cyprus are not given the same freedoms, hence they are seen not to be equal to the other Euros.
#172
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Here we go again, the same headline-regurgitating, fact-twisting, EU bashing, huffing, puffing rhetoric as from @warrenm2 above, but this time in longhand.
The facts so far…
- Several Cypriot banks become insolvent, about to go bust. Risk of contagion to other Cypriot banks and financial collapse
- ECB (Eurozone ‘lender of last resort’) provides interim short-term funding.
- EU & ECB along with (stricter) IMF agreed to put up 60% of a 17Bn bailout package.
- Rescue package will be funded mostly by Eurozone taxpayers
- But... EU insist Cyprus come up with the other 40% and quickly as ECB is pumping money into banks day to day
- Cypriot government can’t come up with the money and its parliament chucks out proposals from its own Treasury for stepped levy on all bank deposits.
- Cypriot government passes round the begging bowl but can’t fill it. If you can’t fill it no-one puts in anything as it’ll be all be lost if the banks fail.
- EU insist that they’re not putting up anymore money as Eurozone (and UK) taxpayers have been bailing out greedy banks all over Europe for 6 years and it’s time to stop. (An approach everyone of you banker-bashing, EU-hating, flat-earthers would have applauded up to last week, but you’re happy to make a U-turn to run back and give the EU/Euro a kicking). So…
- ‘Orderly’ collapse of 2 big, insolvent Cypriot banks,
- EU bailout means cash is available for depositor protection given for first 100k, as per EU banking law (it’s £85k in UK, check your bank’s T&Cs)
- Depositers with 100k+ treated as ‘unsecured creditors’ as per standard for any failing bank or business
- EU bailout means wealthy depositor will see at least 70% of their money back instead of none of their money back.
@Warrenm2 calls it theft. You call it economic rape.
I say; Cyprus depositors in failed Eurozone banks get most of their money after EU bailout.
__________________________________________________ ____________
A single currency, for a single market? What a daft idea!
#173
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I could say the same, though I suspect you are deliberately playing dumb
It's referring to the capital controls. The Euros outside of Cyprus can be sent anywhere in the EZ at an unrestricted amount, however, the Euros in accounts in Cyprus are not given the same freedoms, hence they are seen not to be equal to the other Euros.
It's referring to the capital controls. The Euros outside of Cyprus can be sent anywhere in the EZ at an unrestricted amount, however, the Euros in accounts in Cyprus are not given the same freedoms, hence they are seen not to be equal to the other Euros.
As I said ... no point.
Last edited by SouthWalesSam; 26 March 2013 at 01:02 PM.
#174
Ignoring the fact that what we have in this country is now a far cry from democracy and the justice system is fekked, what else is good?
Ruled from abroad? What do we have now? Our daft governments just enforce every crazy law...
We pay in? Yes, but we can take out if we need to, and we have done.
I'm not sure what you think is so good about the UK?
Ruled from abroad? What do we have now? Our daft governments just enforce every crazy law...
We pay in? Yes, but we can take out if we need to, and we have done.
I'm not sure what you think is so good about the UK?
Our government needs to realise that if they continue to do just as they are ordered by the other untrustworthy clowns then they had better learn quickly that is a fast way to oblivion as far as they are concerned.
I don't know how much we get out financially, do you? I wonder how much it is compared to what we are charged to be a member!
I very much value being British and I want to see us able to run our own country as we wish!
Les
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I dont disagree to an extent, but at least we can still kick them into touch next time! They have not yet got around to telling us that general elections are no longer necessary yet-although in a federated Eu I think that is certainly on the cards. We would certainly have no option but to do as they say even though we could tell them to do with their orders as it is.
Our government needs to realise that if they continue to do just as they are ordered by the other untrustworthy clowns then they had better learn quickly that is a fast way to oblivion as far as they are concerned.
I don't know how much we get out financially, do you? I wonder how much it is compared to what we are charged to be a member!
I very much value being British and I want to see us able to run our own country as we wish!
Les
Our government needs to realise that if they continue to do just as they are ordered by the other untrustworthy clowns then they had better learn quickly that is a fast way to oblivion as far as they are concerned.
I don't know how much we get out financially, do you? I wonder how much it is compared to what we are charged to be a member!
I very much value being British and I want to see us able to run our own country as we wish!
Les
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ia...about-germany/
#176
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he too was very concerned about a united Germany, and had a ready "friend" in this regard in Stalin
In fact Churchill really put the American's nose out of joint, and they were pretty unimpressed with his manoeuvrings with Stalin about the future of post war Germany
But when you sit down and really think what Germany accomplished when they united with East Germany – they converted the useless East German Mark at a 1 to 1 conversion rate, incredible
And then relentlessly invested in infrastructure -- if we teach our children hard work and working together = success, Germany is a good example of this in practice
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 26 March 2013 at 08:11 PM.
#177
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My thoughts exactly...but let's not forget that large amounts of EC money went to East Germany to replace worn out, outdated etc infrastructure and factories, which has now defaulted to Germany, which now has some of the most modern factories in Europe, paid for by...the rest of Europe.
#178
My thoughts exactly...but let's not forget that large amounts of EC money went to East Germany to replace worn out, outdated etc infrastructure and factories, which has now defaulted to Germany, which now has some of the most modern factories in Europe, paid for by...the rest of Europe.
#179
and she was following on from the tone set by Winston Churchill
he too was very concerned about a united Germany, and had a ready "friend" in this regard in Stalin
In fact Churchill really put the American's nose out of joint, and they were pretty unimpressed with his manoeuvrings with Stalin about the future of post war Germany
But when you sit down and really think what Germany accomplished when they united with East Germany – they converted the useless East German Mark at a 1 to 1 conversion rate, incredible
And then relentlessly invested in infrastructure -- if we teach our children hard work and working together = success, Germany is a good example of this in practice
he too was very concerned about a united Germany, and had a ready "friend" in this regard in Stalin
In fact Churchill really put the American's nose out of joint, and they were pretty unimpressed with his manoeuvrings with Stalin about the future of post war Germany
But when you sit down and really think what Germany accomplished when they united with East Germany – they converted the useless East German Mark at a 1 to 1 conversion rate, incredible
And then relentlessly invested in infrastructure -- if we teach our children hard work and working together = success, Germany is a good example of this in practice
It was the bit about acting like a master race which was the mistake!
Les
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And now they want us all to pay as well....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-increase.html
Where will it stop? Answer: It won't, the UK can only be protected by voting us out of the EU in a referendum or voting UKIP into power
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-increase.html
Where will it stop? Answer: It won't, the UK can only be protected by voting us out of the EU in a referendum or voting UKIP into power