Martin2005

A don't see it as a brave new world, I look at this pragmatically.

There were many thing that happened under Thatcher that I totally oppose, I was at school when she was in power, and I remember very cleartly how bloody awful schools were. I remember the appalling state the NHS fell into under her too.

The communities should certainly have been looked after more seriously than they were, I could not possibly disagree with you on this.

But overall this country was looking down the barrel and she was instrumental in turning our economy from ineffective, inefficient centralised command economy, into a more modern and competitive economy that benefited the many. There were victims of this I know and that is to be regretted.

I remain a fully signed up moderate, and certainly never voted for her when I had the chance to.

Martin2005

This will become a new SN rule, let's call it 'F1's Law'...

'You cannot hold a valid opinion on a subject unless you were there'

I sense you might get hoisted by your own daft petard

Worlasshasansti

I can't think of anything good about politics it's all a load of bol*ocks, I'm too young but I would rather thatcher was in power now, I like the way she got the job done unlike the ridiculous politicians these days who won't do anything for fear of upsetting anyone.

Sick of hearing about how she put pay to the pits, why aren't any of the backward mining communities going berserk about scargill? It was him that put pay to the pits.

Sick of hearing about the Falklands aswell, least she got us in and out and got the job done, unlike mr Blair and the Iraq fiasco...

That's about everything I know (or think i know) about politics and history

Mick

Martin2005

[quote=f1_fan;11063418]Economically I couldn't agree more, but as I have said Chip there were a lot of good things about the 70s society outside of that and they got massively eroded during the 80s/90s.


So invoking 'F1's Law'...

how the *** do you know that things were so much better in the 70's 'you were a child FFS'

hodgy0_2

but I would go further - it was a national disgrace

the fact that it is not seen as such today explains pretty much where we are now

what other northern european country would allow that to happen

can you imagine it happening in Germany, Austria, Denmark, Holland, Sweden ????

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

But hang on a minute, you said you were there:

My point is you were 12 in 1980 so your memories can be no more than those of a child and will be massively influenced by your parents or guardians etc.

You now seem to be hinting that your opinions were formed otherwise so once again we have contradictory crap eminating from your posts. Oh well... business as usual on Planet Martin

Martin2005

Could you point to the contradictions

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Really?

You are implying that I said you can't have an opinion unless you were there when in fact I am saying your opinion is not realy fully representative as it is that of a child seeing as you said you were there and remember it well (even though you were only 12 in 1980 ).

You are also now implying by your utterly stupid F1 's law comment that your opinion was not formed through being there yet you said earlier you remember it well.

You also claim to be a moderate yet earlier comments in the Thatcher thread would place you clearly in her camp yet you claim to have never voted for her.

I am beginning to think you are doing this for a wind up or you have some mild schizophrenia

Martin2005

There is no contradiction.
I don’t know why you find it so hard to understand that I’m not ideological, in fact my politics are moderate / social democratic, always have been.
It is perfectly possible to admire, recognise and understand Thatcher, and oppose much of what she did. My only contention on here (which you bizarrely decided to jump up and down about) was that she was the right leader at the right time, and carried out some absolutely essential industrial and economic reforms, I didn’t think that I was even being controversial.
I think you struggle to understand where I’m coming from because, we see things in entirely different ways (or at least it appears that way). The irony of course is that my moderate views are actually far closer to your views than many posters on here, which makes your constant and rather unpleasant attacks upon me, seem strange.
As for ‘F1 Law’ I’ll amend and add to it ‘have to have been there AND/OR or be old enough to remember’, so we can ensure there is no confusion in future.

Now what was it you were saying about the 70’s?

Ant

f1 i might of overlooked all of this so apologies if you have already mentioned it, how old are you?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

I am really busy today earning lots of capitalist pig money so I haven't got time for any long winded responses, but I will say just this.

Anyone who can lay the blame for the miners' demise solely at the door of Arthur Scargill, like you did, is not a moderate.

Scargill was a stupid egotist who was taken advantge of by Thatcher in a game of political football he was never equipped to win.... along the way the two of them destroyed many communitices and countless numbers of people's livelihoods.

That was just one of many unpleasant aspects to the leader you and so many others admire.

If that is what floats your boat then so be it, but the views of a moderate they are not!

jonc

Not only a "Thatcher's child" but also a true Thatcherite through and through!

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Nah, I give all my profits to the Socialist Workers Party

trails

iTrader: (41)

47 we believe...Chris?

Ant

So going by martins "f1 law" his opinion is void too?

jonc

To quote Thatcher: "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

She was hardly likely to be a trailblazer for the socialist ideology though was she?

To quote me:

"Socialism would be great if most human beings weren't such utter *****"

warrenm2

Well they are, so its a pretty crap idea then and it doesn't work in the real world. Time to do something that does then....

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Thanks for that Anyway let me know if you find something that does, the world would love to see it You could be a very rich man unless whatever you discover forbids that of course

Maz

iTrader: (34)

Capitalism is really booming isn't it?
As someone said, give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world......
Socialism was effected when our money was used to bail out the banks, didn't see any of the capitalists moaning then.

hodgy0_2

"Pretty Boy Floyd" by Woody Guthrie contained the memorable line

Yes, as through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men;
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen.

warrenm2

Absolutely!

More people have been pulled out of poverty in the last year than in any time in mankind's history. (Mainly in China)

Heres a nice little vid showing how health and wealth are connected
Or how about this http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/intern...art-of-the-day Research showing that the lowest 5% of a capitalist country are better off than the top 5% of another...

If you think that capitalism doesn't create wealth then you are a total idiot, if you think that pulling people out of poverty is not desirable, you are a total idiot, if you think that other systems (maybe socialism) generate the same benefits to ALL of mankind, then you are a total idiot. Which kind of idiot are you?

hodgy0_2

But China is a communist country

jonc

Was, the economic reforms is pure capitalism. It does capitalism better than the US.

hodgy0_2

yes, as I have argued before (on this forum) these labels are becoming increasingly redundant terms

but undeniable that China works under a very different model than the one Warren supports -- i am talking about the role of the state

so sligtly ironic that it is used as an example

what do you think?

DYK

That's quite enough F1,you naughty naughty man.

jonc

Granted China is a bit of a paradox where it still (tries to maintain) exercises control over it's people but orders its people to go out and make profit and gave them the economic freedom to do so. This is state capitalism has allowed many to increase their wealth and with little regard to anything else in the making of profit. However, I think control of the people is shifting away from the party elite to the growing number of rich capitalists who now control the vast workforce and why bribery and corruption is rife in China. Money is king and the rich elite have a growing influence on the party elite. From a socialist point of view, capitalism is the exploitation of its workforce in the pursuit of profit and at the moment no one does it better than China. The irony is that only the die hard anti-communist brigade still considers China as a true communist state.

hodgy0_2

What you describe as happening in China is "Gangsta" Capitalism as practiced in Russia and much of the Eastern bloc

An Equally redundant philosophy

Maz

iTrader: (34)

I'm no idiot thank you very much Warren. I'm not oblivious to the benefits of capitalism nor to the greed of mankind. Yes capitalism does create wealth but how much wealth does one person need? Furthermore is capitalism a sustainable model going forward? I'm not so sure. As someone on this forum said 'it's a case of kicking the can down the road as far as we can...'

warrenm2

Your statements prove otherwise

You say it has benefits then ignore them. The WHOLE of society benefits as capitalism progresses, that's the point. As you saw from the video, people get healthier, live longer and have higher standards of living. Its not for you to decide either how much one person needs, it also is not a zero sum game, by me being rich doesn't make you poor.

Yes

Well you know my opinion of your thinking skills on this one... In fact as your previous and next comments goes to show...

No, that's about dealing with the unsustainable levels of debt we have. Nothing to do with capitalism, all to do with crap politicians. If you're unable to see the difference, you have proved my point. Maggie was a supporter of sound money btw...