Actually, I would bet that fan is nothing like as effective as it "Looks".
The problem with axial fans, is that they usually blow air all over the place (not much point having 20'000cfm if 10'000 of it is cooling the door mirrors) and they also usually struggle at overcoming resistance (getting that remaining 10'000 cfm THROUGH the radiators instead of bouncing off them and going round the sides), and you dont get much more resistance than the triple radiator setup on most modern turbocharged cars. (Aircon/intercooler/radiator) .

They also usually have a deadspot in the middle so you cant bring them in too close or you end up not cooling anything but the bonnet and wings!
(Take an Anemometer to an axial fan and your will see what I mean)

Centrifugal tends to be where its at for high pressure delivery to get the air through that lot and maintain some decent volume through the heat exchangers and ideally, ONLY the heat exchangers. Nothing worse than your cup of tea on the shelf going stone cold and the engine getting hot due to a poorly specced fan install. ROFLOL

 

Yes mate, but at £5K each I am not going to. LOL

In all seriousness, that is kind of what I plan to do, but the fan is going to be in the fan room and be ported in via a pipe, underneath the main fan.
I will then in all likelyhood create some form of boom arm that atatches to teh main fan and will allow me to securely clamp that extra air feed onto it and place it where i want and remove it when not in use. Its rare I will need to use it so its not staying in the cell permanently as I hate clutter... be them wires, pipes or bloody brackets!

Image's below to kind of poorly elaborate. LOL

 

Hi Alan,
Mine will probably never pay for itself mate, not directly. We have always rented them and used to loan the TVR one until they went under, then used one of our installers about 40 miles away for anything unusual we needed load for during ecu development.

Most live mapping, be it stand alone or O.E via emulator was done on the road and I have worked this way for the last 15 years. We did it all on the 4wd dyno at the place I worked before opening up for myself in 1999, but the setup was poor IMO and a poor dyno is a hazzard for mapping.

We need our dyno for development more than public use, as you will see from our vehicle application list, we support a LOT of vehicles. (More than any other single company in the world I believe) and developent time is cut down hugely when looking for torque limiters / boost tables etc on a dyno as my "*** dyno" whilst very finely tuned with years of experience, is not always perfect. LOL. So, we will recoup most of our investment in saved time, better productivity and a mix of customer dyno work and pro cell hire. And yes - its a damn site faster, cleaner and safer being on the dyno.

Which is best?
I firmly believe a mixture is best.

The bulk of the work can be done on the dyno, and its bloody faster to make a cal from scratch on a dyno that on the road. And the results you achieve should be pretty close to correct - assuming the dyno in question is able to reasonably replicate real world conditions: I.E:

1. Cell temps are maintained a max of 3 degrees above ambient through the whole mapping process.
2. Absolutely no hydrocarbons are entering the combustion chambers from exhaust gas or breathers.
3. The dyno cell air pressure is around atmosphere or slightly negative. (No more than -0.25" H20)
4. AFR is monitored on high end accurate gear.
   (Not £200 junk off eBay)
   
   
5. Knock is monitored properly. (I like Phormula, knock box and my good old fashioned det cans and copper pipes depending on the car.)
   

If the above criteria are met, you are as sure as you can be that the fuel and spark tables are in fact being calibrated for the same air pressure, temperature, cleanliness and oxygen content as the air surrounding the tarmac outside.

Once the dyno work is finished - the car absolutely has to have a good hard drive to ensure that all parameters are as expected and very close to the same as they were on the dyno, and if not, tweaked to bring them into line. The further out they are, the worse the cell you used is.

The above obviously assumes that:

1. The calibrator and dyno operator are professionals who know what they are doing.
2. The equipment used is all both decent and acurate.

The problems usually arise when the dyno cell is poorly cooled or poorly ventilated. Its usually a mixture of both and this just leads to problems when the car hits the road in anger. Too much boost, not enough fuel, knock... all signs of a car tuned in a bad cell which then give rise to the "You cant tune a car on a dyno" discussions. Its not usually the operators fault as such, they usually just dont know any better... and most operators seem to think exhaust fumes in the cell are a great thing and just keep hundreds of anadin in the dyno cupboard and moan about headaches more than an angry wife at bedtime. ROFLOL

 

Well, we use a centrifugal fan and automatically observe the above.
Happy day!

Incidentally, in the past six years we've carried out over 60,000 dyno runs..

 

surley thats more road sim than direct aimed flow?

 

I've had my car on various dynos, see videos below:

Powerstation (my fav):


RCM:


EuroSpec2000:

 

Here was my Litchfield Spec C at Powerstation a few years ago:





I also quite liked the DSA dyno cell:



Surrey Rolling Road & Subaru4you seemed like a similar dyno cell setup & Motorwerx was ok but didn't have good enough system clearing exhaust gases when I was last there.

 

Sorry mate, can you elaborate on your question please as I don't follow what your mean?

 

Thanks , appreciate those vids. Gotta love the RCM cell, looks awesome. Wish I had visited that one.

 

Thanks, was good to see how PS have created an adaptor for the end of that intercooler fan. Impressed with that.

 

Awesome mate! A lot of hard work and big electric bills to boot!
What Dyno do you have? Has it been reliable for you?

 

Dyno Dynamics, it's been spot on.

 

Glad to hear it mate as their service to me so far has been pretty awful and I dread the damn thing breaking!

 

Pretty awful???

More like totally ****ing useless if you ask me!

Just how late was it arriving stu? Should have been here before xmas wasnt it?
Not good for quite a costly peice of kit!

 

Did yours come from the States? Apparently there's been a lot of politics going on. I have a contingency just in case! The beds themselves aren't the issue, it's sorting out the control systems. So far I can't say as I regret ours not being on Windows, put it that way.

 

Alan, it was from Aus iirc.

 

Removed the bonnet on mine when it was mapped at Surrey rolling road

 

No problem. It is a great Dyno set up no doubt about it. However I do feel that TMIC cooling was lacking. Fortunately for me I actually have a fan under the intercooler to draw what air was available and kept the temps down. But the actual cell itself is awesome

By far my preferred is Powerstation's dyno. Mainly because it's a MAHA dyno to be honest, but also due to the great cooling in there.

 

I'm just thinking outloud of how airflow works on a car.

When your driving along the road the air is hitting the whole of the front of the car equaly from one direction (assuming no funny eddies off the road, or surrounding buildings etc).

So the ideal simulation in a dyno cell is to have flow going in one end, out the other equaly accorss the whole area of the cell, like a wind tunnel does (have a nosey at dannyp's myra pics).

The problem I see with the powerstation top mount feed (just as an example) is the tube feeding the top mount is roughly 500mm diameter, where as the actual feed comes from the scoop which is alot less than that, so you are in affect artificialy increasing the air flow through the top mount intercooler.

so that said the ideal air feed is a blood gert fan each end lol

 

Paid for it late July last year on the understanding its a 10 week delivery. It arrived a few weeks ago.

Mine was direct from the factory in Australia - its the first fully digital Dynotech 4wd they have installed in Europe.

There were indeed a lot of politics when the parent company wanted to call it a day and eventually the staff bought it out I believe.

I agree about your fears - Its the control system that has always put me off it.
A lot of my installers have the DS450 and they have control system problems with sad regularity and it always entails a PC control item delivery from DD and long down times- not good.

Thankfully the new all digital Dynotech 4wd system runs on any windows 7 PC and if it breaks I can get it back up and running myself on any PC I like.
It has to be said, bar a few idiotic software glitches they have promised to iron out - the control system is awesome now.

Ah ok, I am tuned in now. Whilst I see what your saying, and you are of course absolutely correct, the only part of the airflow outdoors that is actually of any use to us in a tuning environment is the air that does the cooling, and that is the air thats hitting the front lower area of the vehicle. The rest of it is of use only for resistance and downforce, only one of which is desirable at all and the other totally undesirable (Unless you happen to be an aerodynamics expert and make your living from it).

In a dyno cell, the last thing we want to do is waste any of our precious (and expensive) airflow by sending it anywhere other than through items that need cooling by the air we are paying for.

Talking of awesome dyno's inside real wind tunnels! here is one that supplies its own weather!

 

i can offer my uk 300 for a free guinea pig mapping trial ..

 

I get your point about needing the cooling and not the DF etc on the dyno, but on the flip side you dont want to exagerate the cooling, so if you dont blow air accross the whole front of the car then its not realy giving any valid result or real world simulation, after all the aim is to simulate real world conditions as much as possible.

So,

500mm diameter pipe will have a flow area of 196,350mm sq
565x76 (04/05 scoop opening size taken from net as an example) flow area of 42,940mm sq

you have to take into account air speed as well when compared to road use but thats very dependant on what fan etc etc, but your talking near 4 times the airflow to what is a heat exchanger, that can have a big affect on it.


It could also prove to be risky if car is set up based the increased cooling.

 

I would be more than happy to do you some free runs and do some before and after top mount independent feed tests and find out once and for all if its needed or not, but all your going to get for your trouble is a bunch of graphs, pictures and a video or two. Maybe worth it to you if your local?

 

Ah, I follow you now. I didn't realise your we're talking specifically about the TMIC feed. I agree in that respect that the ideal is the same air pressure through the scoop as the radiators and l mentioned that myself earlier. Regard cooling the rest of the car, it's important to realise, that is the job of the CELL extractor fans... NOT the engine cooling fans or exhaust extraction fans.

 

yeah sorry, should have said that, specificly the top mount feed lol

Localising the airflow isn't ideal i would have thought, hence running a airflow over the whole rather than specific location fans.

 

also helps the turbo grab air easily, as it would do out on the road.
Trev

 

as in which way rev, if you flow air over the whole fornt of the car ot to specific areas?

 

full front mate
Trev

 

ah yeah, i agree