just got a nip
14 June 2013, 01:22 PM
#61
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The noise meter should be calibrated before every recording -i.e. there and then in front of you. They are very sensitive bits of equipment - a single car journey can cause them to be miss-calibrated. They should use a device with a known dB rating, and use that to 'tune' the noise meter.
The meter should also be sent back to the manufacturers at least once a year for more in depth calibration.
The meter should also be sent back to the manufacturers at least once a year for more in depth calibration.
14 June 2013, 01:49 PM
#63
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Read this thread from Pistonheads. Very similar case in Norfolk. Driver was given an absolute discharge.
Tis a poorly worded piece of legislation. Either you allow a general specification which aftermarket parts must comply with, e.g. noise limits, British Standards compliance etc., or you go down the German TuV route where aftermarket parts are tested and approved and marked as such.
Currently it is illegal to modify an exhaust to make more noise than standard. This is obviously aimed at removing baffles, drilling holes etc. It seems to be being interpreted to include purchase of a complete system which happens to be louder than OEM. Very few exhausts will last the whole life of the vehicle.
MOT pass is a red herring, that's a subjective test, often not applied by friendly MOT testers.
Tis a poorly worded piece of legislation. Either you allow a general specification which aftermarket parts must comply with, e.g. noise limits, British Standards compliance etc., or you go down the German TuV route where aftermarket parts are tested and approved and marked as such.
Currently it is illegal to modify an exhaust to make more noise than standard. This is obviously aimed at removing baffles, drilling holes etc. It seems to be being interpreted to include purchase of a complete system which happens to be louder than OEM. Very few exhausts will last the whole life of the vehicle.
MOT pass is a red herring, that's a subjective test, often not applied by friendly MOT testers.
14 June 2013, 02:52 PM
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14 June 2013, 03:09 PM
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If i was dealing with this case i would go down the route of finding out what you are being charged with, if it because if an aftermarket system then the defensive would be as follows,
Where does the law stand as standard system.
Is every system sold by the likes of euro car parts, unipart ect all against the law(i think not)
As long you prove that you car has the relevent parts, cats ect you be fine.
I dont think the CPS will even allow this to go to court.
An example you can also use is the Astra VXR Nur Edition. This comes with a 2.75 Turbo back system with just one Cat and backbox from Factory.
Very noisie system which pops and bangs like mad however not against the law.
Any questions you have PM me and i will help as much i can for you
Where does the law stand as standard system.
Is every system sold by the likes of euro car parts, unipart ect all against the law(i think not)
As long you prove that you car has the relevent parts, cats ect you be fine.
I dont think the CPS will even allow this to go to court.
An example you can also use is the Astra VXR Nur Edition. This comes with a 2.75 Turbo back system with just one Cat and backbox from Factory.
Very noisie system which pops and bangs like mad however not against the law.
Any questions you have PM me and i will help as much i can for you
14 June 2013, 05:18 PM
#66
well update . it gets better i now have a quote from a subaru dealer, for a std system , and a identical stainless system with single 4.5inch tailpipe, with parts no's and prices, you couldn't make this up . i am now hoping plod will ring said dealer and get told the same as me that a replacement ss system is available from subaru uk.
decat centre section 2.5inch (same as p1) ptno exst0311 is £155.61
rear section including muffler 2.5inch ss with single exit is £197.60 ]
so who in thier right mind is going to use the std mild steel parts when the are
ptno 44200fa031 exhaust pipe assembly y rear £312.70
and ptno 44305fa050 centre section £265.42 plus vat
all this proves that a identical ss system is available from subaru uk
decat centre section 2.5inch (same as p1) ptno exst0311 is £155.61
rear section including muffler 2.5inch ss with single exit is £197.60 ]
so who in thier right mind is going to use the std mild steel parts when the are
ptno 44200fa031 exhaust pipe assembly y rear £312.70
and ptno 44305fa050 centre section £265.42 plus vat
all this proves that a identical ss system is available from subaru uk
14 June 2013, 06:15 PM
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Showing that other cars, e.g. Lamborghini etc. are louder as standard is irrelevant.
The police blurb here says:
Exhausts:
The vast majority of large or big bore exhausts are illegal for use on public roads. The fact they may have passed an MOT test is irrelevant as this only checks for exhaust gasses and emission legislation compliance.
Big bore and sports exhaust systems are usually fitted to increase the sound emitted and this contravenes the Type Approval of the vehicle, which is an offence. There is no requirement for police to measure the sound level from the exhaust system, it only requires an opinion that the system is not standard and that it is noisier than a normal vehicle of the same specification.
It is not an offence to sell these exhaust systems, but it is an offence to fit one to your vehicle and drive it on a public road. Motorists who do so would be reported to court and may face a fine and court costs.
The police blurb here says:
Exhausts:
The vast majority of large or big bore exhausts are illegal for use on public roads. The fact they may have passed an MOT test is irrelevant as this only checks for exhaust gasses and emission legislation compliance.
Big bore and sports exhaust systems are usually fitted to increase the sound emitted and this contravenes the Type Approval of the vehicle, which is an offence. There is no requirement for police to measure the sound level from the exhaust system, it only requires an opinion that the system is not standard and that it is noisier than a normal vehicle of the same specification.
It is not an offence to sell these exhaust systems, but it is an offence to fit one to your vehicle and drive it on a public road. Motorists who do so would be reported to court and may face a fine and court costs.
14 June 2013, 07:55 PM
#69
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Showing that other cars, e.g. Lamborghini etc. are louder as standard is irrelevant.
The police blurb here says:
Exhausts:
The vast majority of large or big bore exhausts are illegal for use on public roads. The fact they may have passed an MOT test is irrelevant as this only checks for exhaust gasses and emission legislation compliance.
Big bore and sports exhaust systems are usually fitted to increase the sound emitted and this contravenes the Type Approval of the vehicle, which is an offence. There is no requirement for police to measure the sound level from the exhaust system, it only requires an opinion that the system is not standard and that it is noisier than a normal vehicle of the same specification.
It is not an offence to sell these exhaust systems, but it is an offence to fit one to your vehicle and drive it on a public road. Motorists who do so would be reported to court and may face a fine and court costs.
The police blurb here says:
Exhausts:
The vast majority of large or big bore exhausts are illegal for use on public roads. The fact they may have passed an MOT test is irrelevant as this only checks for exhaust gasses and emission legislation compliance.
Big bore and sports exhaust systems are usually fitted to increase the sound emitted and this contravenes the Type Approval of the vehicle, which is an offence. There is no requirement for police to measure the sound level from the exhaust system, it only requires an opinion that the system is not standard and that it is noisier than a normal vehicle of the same specification.
It is not an offence to sell these exhaust systems, but it is an offence to fit one to your vehicle and drive it on a public road. Motorists who do so would be reported to court and may face a fine and court costs.
14 June 2013, 09:04 PM
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Well that maybe Norfolk police misguided interpretation of the law but "opinion" does not stand up in court. To gain a prosecution they will have to "prove" the law was broken. Their opinion is not proof, they are just trying there luck with a grey area in the law. Funny how no other police forces seem to be using there "opinion" to prosecute for after market exhausts. My bet is the wording on their website will rapidly change once cases of this kind are booted out of court.
110% agree here!!
14 June 2013, 10:11 PM
#71
Showing that other cars, e.g. Lamborghini etc. are louder as standard is irrelevant.
The police blurb here says:
Exhausts:
The vast majority of large or big bore exhausts are illegal for use on public roads. The fact they may have passed an MOT test is irrelevant as this only checks for exhaust gasses and emission legislation compliance.
Big bore and sports exhaust systems are usually fitted to increase the sound emitted and this contravenes the Type Approval of the vehicle, which is an offence. There is no requirement for police to measure the sound level from the exhaust system, it only requires an opinion that the system is not standard and that it is noisier than a normal vehicle of the same specification.
It is not an offence to sell these exhaust systems, but it is an offence to fit one to your vehicle and drive it on a public road. Motorists who do so would be reported to court and may face a fine and court costs.
The police blurb here says:
Exhausts:
The vast majority of large or big bore exhausts are illegal for use on public roads. The fact they may have passed an MOT test is irrelevant as this only checks for exhaust gasses and emission legislation compliance.
Big bore and sports exhaust systems are usually fitted to increase the sound emitted and this contravenes the Type Approval of the vehicle, which is an offence. There is no requirement for police to measure the sound level from the exhaust system, it only requires an opinion that the system is not standard and that it is noisier than a normal vehicle of the same specification.
It is not an offence to sell these exhaust systems, but it is an offence to fit one to your vehicle and drive it on a public road. Motorists who do so would be reported to court and may face a fine and court costs.
they are just trying it on, good luck
14 June 2013, 11:40 PM
#72
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Do not pay the £30 FPN, the copper has been advised this probably wont go anywhere in court and so is calling your bluff.
As if there isn't enough going on in Britain grrrrrrrr
Take it to court dude and good luck
As if there isn't enough going on in Britain grrrrrrrr
Take it to court dude and good luck
15 June 2013, 12:41 AM
#73
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Showing that other cars, e.g. Lamborghini etc. are louder as standard is irrelevant.
The police blurb here says:
Exhausts:
The vast majority of large or big bore exhausts are illegal for use on public roads. The fact they may have passed an MOT test is irrelevant as this only checks for exhaust gasses and emission legislation compliance.
Big bore and sports exhaust systems are usually fitted to increase the sound emitted and this contravenes the Type Approval of the vehicle, which is an offence. There is no requirement for police to measure the sound level from the exhaust system, it only requires an opinion that the system is not standard and that it is noisier than a normal vehicle of the same specification.
It is not an offence to sell these exhaust systems, but it is an offence to fit one to your vehicle and drive it on a public road. Motorists who do so would be reported to court and may face a fine and court costs.
The police blurb here says:
Exhausts:
The vast majority of large or big bore exhausts are illegal for use on public roads. The fact they may have passed an MOT test is irrelevant as this only checks for exhaust gasses and emission legislation compliance.
Big bore and sports exhaust systems are usually fitted to increase the sound emitted and this contravenes the Type Approval of the vehicle, which is an offence. There is no requirement for police to measure the sound level from the exhaust system, it only requires an opinion that the system is not standard and that it is noisier than a normal vehicle of the same specification.
It is not an offence to sell these exhaust systems, but it is an offence to fit one to your vehicle and drive it on a public road. Motorists who do so would be reported to court and may face a fine and court costs.
* "an opinion that the system is not standard" - the officer must demonstrate sufficient knowledge of vehicles as to convince the magistrates that his opinion is an expert one. Therefore question him on standards specs for various models.
* "noisier than a normal vehicle of the same specification" - the officer now not only has to demonstrate a knowledge of the specifications of cars viz a viz what a 'standard' spec car produces in dB but also has to demonstrate a) that they understand what dB levels represent; b)that their hearing is so acute as to be able to discern differing dB levels; and c) that they know the range of dB levels of common everyday noises eg. how loud is a lawnmower, a plane taking off, normal talking etc.
It wouldn't come to court, as others have mentioned, but imagine plod having to answer these questions in front of magistrates, who themselves wouldn't have a clue?
"The prosecution's star witness is unreliable, ladies and gentlemen of the bench and I submit that the CPS has failed to provide evidence against me".
Oh - and what if the exhaust was NOT fitted to increase the sound emitted, but that was a by-product of a perfectly acceptable mechanical upgrade to the car?
I hope the OP is charged with the offence. I'm sure he'd be able to claim considerable costs for his research etc. etc. and be recompensed in some way.
15 June 2013, 01:09 AM
#75
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An alternative line of attack to the ones already mentioned would be:
* "an opinion that the system is not standard" - the officer must demonstrate sufficient knowledge of vehicles as to convince the magistrates that his opinion is an expert one. Therefore question him on standards specs for various models.
* "noisier than a normal vehicle of the same specification" - the officer now not only has to demonstrate a knowledge of the specifications of cars viz a viz what a 'standard' spec car produces in dB but also has to demonstrate a) that they understand what dB levels represent; b)that their hearing is so acute as to be able to discern differing dB levels; and c) that they know the range of dB levels of common everyday noises eg. how loud is a lawnmower, a plane taking off, normal talking etc.
It wouldn't come to court, as others have mentioned, but imagine plod having to answer these questions in front of magistrates, who themselves wouldn't have a clue?
"The prosecution's star witness is unreliable, ladies and gentlemen of the bench and I submit that the CPS has failed to provide evidence against me".
Oh - and what if the exhaust was NOT fitted to increase the sound emitted, but that was a by-product of a perfectly acceptable mechanical upgrade to the car?
I hope the OP is charged with the offence. I'm sure he'd be able to claim considerable costs for his research etc. etc. and be recompensed in some way.
* "an opinion that the system is not standard" - the officer must demonstrate sufficient knowledge of vehicles as to convince the magistrates that his opinion is an expert one. Therefore question him on standards specs for various models.
* "noisier than a normal vehicle of the same specification" - the officer now not only has to demonstrate a knowledge of the specifications of cars viz a viz what a 'standard' spec car produces in dB but also has to demonstrate a) that they understand what dB levels represent; b)that their hearing is so acute as to be able to discern differing dB levels; and c) that they know the range of dB levels of common everyday noises eg. how loud is a lawnmower, a plane taking off, normal talking etc.
It wouldn't come to court, as others have mentioned, but imagine plod having to answer these questions in front of magistrates, who themselves wouldn't have a clue?
"The prosecution's star witness is unreliable, ladies and gentlemen of the bench and I submit that the CPS has failed to provide evidence against me".
Oh - and what if the exhaust was NOT fitted to increase the sound emitted, but that was a by-product of a perfectly acceptable mechanical upgrade to the car?
I hope the OP is charged with the offence. I'm sure he'd be able to claim considerable costs for his research etc. etc. and be recompensed in some way.
All in good time as they say.
15 June 2013, 08:19 AM
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I agree with everything you say but would urge the op NOT to bring up costs or compensation unless asked in the magistrates court. That would be better suited as a civil matter in the county court. Any hint compensation after aquittal could sway the magistrates decision. What the op is after should this go to court is a "no case to answer". That would show the case should never have been brought so any time and expenses occurred should be compensated. While an "absolute discharge" would result in no penalty's it is a guilty without punishment. This would render any compensation claims redundant and could also provoke a "fix it ticket". The magistrates could opt for this over a "no case" should they think you're about to make some sought of test case out of this and sue the police.
All in good time as they say.
All in good time as they say.
I didn't put it across as I intended, sorry. I was working on the basis that he was charged but that either the matter was dropped after the first hearing (when he would plead Not Guilty) or he was acquitted.
Apologies for the confusion.
15 June 2013, 08:59 AM
#77
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This thread and similar others as listed by contributors highlights quite how absurd people are. When the facts are put up in black and white, it really makes us wonder what on earth the OP is actually being prosecuted for.
I don't think this is a failing of the law in any way, it would appear it's pretty well set out so far as I can see, this is a failing of some ******* with a chip on his shoulder. I have come across plenty, I hope they are daft enough to take this one on and you nail and humiliate him in open court.
With regard to the police force that states "opinion", that is of course not the same as "the law" but is probably a deterrent to a group of road users that might be a particular problem in that region.
I'm sure we've all seen a little chav box with a farty exhaust going through an area (usually otherwise quiet residential) when I'm sure technically it's 101.7bB and I would love it if there was actually an ambiguous law of "being a massive chode" that was overseen by a panel of sensible people that could uphold it against people like that.
And for the record, all of my Newage Subarus had Prodrive exhausts that were rated as "Supercar" for noise emissions and I believe something around 101dB at 4500rpm. My current hatch with a factory-fitted system is considerably louder than any of them...
I'm sorry I don't know how to embed videos
I don't think this is a failing of the law in any way, it would appear it's pretty well set out so far as I can see, this is a failing of some ******* with a chip on his shoulder. I have come across plenty, I hope they are daft enough to take this one on and you nail and humiliate him in open court.
With regard to the police force that states "opinion", that is of course not the same as "the law" but is probably a deterrent to a group of road users that might be a particular problem in that region.
I'm sure we've all seen a little chav box with a farty exhaust going through an area (usually otherwise quiet residential) when I'm sure technically it's 101.7bB and I would love it if there was actually an ambiguous law of "being a massive chode" that was overseen by a panel of sensible people that could uphold it against people like that.
And for the record, all of my Newage Subarus had Prodrive exhausts that were rated as "Supercar" for noise emissions and I believe something around 101dB at 4500rpm. My current hatch with a factory-fitted system is considerably louder than any of them...
I'm sorry I don't know how to embed videos
15 June 2013, 10:41 AM
#78
well bit of a update,
i am collecting photo's of classic impreza's with jap style back box's to prove they are the same as mine, they are flowing in (forgive the pun) quite nicely on facebook. no plates covered of course, i now have on paper a quote for a stainless system identical to mine from subaru uk, it's cheeper by a long shot than the origional mild steel system, and i have emailed the plymouth ticket office informing them i inten to contest the ticket shame there is no fingers crossed smiley, and just to add have sent my fiver off to dvla for a copy of my sva ticket
i am collecting photo's of classic impreza's with jap style back box's to prove they are the same as mine, they are flowing in (forgive the pun) quite nicely on facebook. no plates covered of course, i now have on paper a quote for a stainless system identical to mine from subaru uk, it's cheeper by a long shot than the origional mild steel system, and i have emailed the plymouth ticket office informing them i inten to contest the ticket
shame there is no fingers crossed smiley, and just to add have sent my fiver off to dvla for a copy of my sva ticket
15 June 2013, 10:47 AM
#79
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well bit of a update,
i am collecting photo's of classic impreza's with jap style back box's to prove they are the same as mine, they are flowing in (forgive the pun) quite nicely on facebook. no plates covered of course, i now have on paper a quote for a stainless system identical to mine from subaru uk, it's cheeper by a long shot than the origional mild steel system, and i have emailed the plymouth ticket office informing them i inten to contest the ticket shame there is no fingers crossed smiley, and just to add have sent my fiver off to dvla for a copy of my sva ticket
i am collecting photo's of classic impreza's with jap style back box's to prove they are the same as mine, they are flowing in (forgive the pun) quite nicely on facebook. no plates covered of course, i now have on paper a quote for a stainless system identical to mine from subaru uk, it's cheeper by a long shot than the origional mild steel system, and i have emailed the plymouth ticket office informing them i inten to contest the ticket
shame there is no fingers crossed smiley, and just to add have sent my fiver off to dvla for a copy of my sva ticketAlthough it would be fun to see them attempt to prosecute you for what is essentially a "non starter" as far as court cases go!
15 June 2013, 11:22 AM
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well bit of a update,
i am collecting photo's of classic impreza's with jap style back box's to prove they are the same as mine, they are flowing in (forgive the pun) quite nicely on facebook. no plates covered of course, i now have on paper a quote for a stainless system identical to mine from subaru uk, it's cheeper by a long shot than the origional mild steel system, and i have emailed the plymouth ticket office informing them i inten to contest the ticket shame there is no fingers crossed smiley, and just to add have sent my fiver off to dvla for a copy of my sva ticket
i am collecting photo's of classic impreza's with jap style back box's to prove they are the same as mine, they are flowing in (forgive the pun) quite nicely on facebook. no plates covered of course, i now have on paper a quote for a stainless system identical to mine from subaru uk, it's cheeper by a long shot than the origional mild steel system, and i have emailed the plymouth ticket office informing them i inten to contest the ticket
shame there is no fingers crossed smiley, and just to add have sent my fiver off to dvla for a copy of my sva ticket
15 June 2013, 12:14 PM
#83
thanks for all the good luck wishes people will keep everyone informed, as this concerns every owner with a aftermarket/ performance/stainless exhaust, the way i am reading the rules as it stands if your scoob is a uk model it's 89db for you end of by the uk type classification. if it's a jdm car it's 101db but that is debatable, the new biva test is 98db. you will need all of the following if stopped.and tested
copy of sva test.(to prove it's a jdm car)
v5 also to prove it's a jdm car
print off section 40-44 of the rta1988
an you might stop it going any further at roadside
copy of sva test.(to prove it's a jdm car)
v5 also to prove it's a jdm car
print off section 40-44 of the rta1988
an you might stop it going any further at roadside
Last edited by madscoob; 15 June 2013 at 12:34 PM.
15 June 2013, 04:13 PM
#84
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"I know my tyres have no tread but have you seen the cost of new ones?"
I wouldn't mention the relative cost of different exhaust systems.
15 June 2013, 04:22 PM
#85
cost and non compliance are not the point, the point i was making is that a stainless steel system (same as mine) is available from subaru, therefore proving it is standard, and not non std as the officer is saying. therefore proving he is a asshat in court, and it does comply with the law as it stands , its a jdm therefore allowed 101db and the exhaust is available from oem therefore standard
Last edited by madscoob; 15 June 2013 at 04:25 PM.
16 June 2013, 11:47 AM
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thanks for all the good luck wishes people will keep everyone informed, as this concerns every owner with a aftermarket/ performance/stainless exhaust, the way i am reading the rules as it stands if your scoob is a uk model it's 89db for you end of by the uk type classification. if it's a jdm car it's 101db but that is debatable, the new biva test is 98db. you will need all of the following if stopped.and tested
copy of sva test.(to prove it's a jdm car)
v5 also to prove it's a jdm car
print off section 40-44 of the rta1988
an you might stop it going any further at roadside
copy of sva test.(to prove it's a jdm car)
v5 also to prove it's a jdm car
print off section 40-44 of the rta1988
an you might stop it going any further at roadside
If PC Stupid realises that he can't get you on that he'll find something else there and then.
I had a mate who got picked on - they basically did a random breath test on him (this was a few years back) and unfortunately he got a bit arsey.
After a fair time of trying to find something wrong they finally discovered that there was no water in the washer bottle.
Perhaps better to say that the V5 says its such-and-such, let him spend time doing the documentation for you to produce it at the station and then show them that their case is um non-existent.
16 June 2013, 04:39 PM
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An alternative would perhaps be NOT to have these documents with you.
If PC Stupid realises that he can't get you on that he'll find something else there and then.
I had a mate who got picked on - they basically did a random breath test on him (this was a few years back) and unfortunately he got a bit arsey.
After a fair time of trying to find something wrong they finally discovered that there was no water in the washer bottle.
Perhaps better to say that the V5 says its such-and-such, let him spend time doing the documentation for you to produce it at the station and then show them that their case is um non-existent.
If PC Stupid realises that he can't get you on that he'll find something else there and then.
I had a mate who got picked on - they basically did a random breath test on him (this was a few years back) and unfortunately he got a bit arsey.
After a fair time of trying to find something wrong they finally discovered that there was no water in the washer bottle.
Perhaps better to say that the V5 says its such-and-such, let him spend time doing the documentation for you to produce it at the station and then show them that their case is um non-existent.
17 June 2013, 05:10 PM
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Would it be terribly childish to suggest that the OP orangises an Impreza meet beside this guys house given he has taken such issue with his exhaust...? Probably, but it's the kinda thing that reading stuff like this would make me want to do!
Good luck with the case, I hope it gets thrown out as it should do.
Good luck with the case, I hope it gets thrown out as it should do.
17 June 2013, 06:26 PM
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Would it be terribly childish to suggest that the OP orangises an Impreza meet beside this guys house given he has taken such issue with his exhaust...? Probably, but it's the kinda thing that reading stuff like this would make me want to do!
Good luck with the case, I hope it gets thrown out as it should do.
Good luck with the case, I hope it gets thrown out as it should do.
Fight the system with the system !