why have bigger brakes?
21 July 2013, 09:07 AM
#31
Because bikes have no weight to them , so are a lot easier to stop , a heavy car will always be more difficult to slow down , heat build up will be far greater .
Larger brakes offer more leverage in the same way using a small ratchet to remove a bolt , it's easier to do with a longer power bar ,
A tuned car will accelerate quicker than a standard car , bigger brakes will stop it quicker than standard brakes , if you drive the car normally you would probably never need better brakes , but then you don't drive a quick car , and tune it to drive round like miss daisy lol.
Larger brakes offer more leverage in the same way using a small ratchet to remove a bolt , it's easier to do with a longer power bar ,
A tuned car will accelerate quicker than a standard car , bigger brakes will stop it quicker than standard brakes , if you drive the car normally you would probably never need better brakes , but then you don't drive a quick car , and tune it to drive round like miss daisy lol.
21 July 2013, 09:26 AM
#32
This is how I see it.
I compensated for how poor the 2 pot front brakes were on my old WRX by increasing brake distances and by using engine braking, although this is no good in an emergency stop situation. My 4 pots on my Type R were no better, so although as a faster car it would accelerate quicker I would still slow at the same point at the same roundabout/turning.
Larger brakes would allow you to brake later, meaning your entry/exit would ultimately be faster.
Someone taking the time and money to go to 400BHP (IE me) will spend a considerable time on things like tyre choice as well as brake upgrade choices and are less likely to buy cheap ebay pads and would spend that bit more on getting their ideal set up. And I'd imagine if they spent x amount and the set up wasn't fantastic they would sacrifice more money to change the set up again to get the right results.
I compensated for how poor the 2 pot front brakes were on my old WRX by increasing brake distances and by using engine braking, although this is no good in an emergency stop situation. My 4 pots on my Type R were no better, so although as a faster car it would accelerate quicker I would still slow at the same point at the same roundabout/turning.
Larger brakes would allow you to brake later, meaning your entry/exit would ultimately be faster.
Someone taking the time and money to go to 400BHP (IE me) will spend a considerable time on things like tyre choice as well as brake upgrade choices and are less likely to buy cheap ebay pads and would spend that bit more on getting their ideal set up. And I'd imagine if they spent x amount and the set up wasn't fantastic they would sacrifice more money to change the set up again to get the right results.
21 July 2013, 09:37 AM
#33
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Thread Starter
how come the STi/Brembo set up on my 330s seems rubbish IMO and from memory not a patch on the std 4pot EBC disc/pad set up I had on my classic over ten years ago.
21 July 2013, 09:47 AM
#35
I've used a few different brake combos over the years. The Subaru 4pot caliper is quite capable with the right disc/pad combo, on my old RA I had Ian's(Godspeed) discs with DS2500 pads and they were great even with Track days thrown in. Also ran with Ksport 8 pots which IMO were only slightly better than the Subaru 4pot combo.
I think the best I had was the stock Brembo caliper with PF discs and PF pads, simply faultless.
I think the best I had was the stock Brembo caliper with PF discs and PF pads, simply faultless.
21 July 2013, 10:01 AM
#36
I've used a few different brake combos over the years. The Subaru 4pot caliper is quite capable with the right disc/pad combo, on my old RA I had Ian's(Godspeed) discs with DS2500 pads and they were great even with Track days thrown in. Also ran with Ksport 8 pots which IMO were only slightly better than the Subaru 4pot combo.
I think the best I had was the stock Brembo caliper with PF discs and PF pads, simply faultless.
I think the best I had was the stock Brembo caliper with PF discs and PF pads, simply faultless.
21 July 2013, 10:07 AM
#38
I've used a few different brake combos over the years. The Subaru 4pot caliper is quite capable with the right disc/pad combo, on my old RA I had Ian's(Godspeed) discs with DS2500 pads and they were great even with Track days thrown in. Also ran with Ksport 8 pots which IMO were only slightly better than the Subaru 4pot combo.
I think the best I had was the stock Brembo caliper with PF discs and PF pads, simply faultless.
I think the best I had was the stock Brembo caliper with PF discs and PF pads, simply faultless.
21 July 2013, 11:07 AM
#40
I'm not to sure but I don't think that Performance Friction make disc for the subaru four pot caliper they do the pads though,the disc they do would be only for the subaru brembo caliper fitment.the CL RC5+ is a a very good pad a lot of my friends are now running them in there cars with only good feedback to be said.i have stopped using 5.1 fluid now for a while and use PF 665 .4 brake fluid which I found to be a very high quality fluid.Braided brake lines will always be a good mod especially if you are running the standard rubber hoses which have been on your car from the factory and will have started to expand and degrade by now and flex under hard braking.three of the above I would recommend even if you are just running the standard four pot calipers:braided lines,fresh brake fluid and at the minimum uprated pads if your disc are in good order,if you can stretch to it uprated disc as well.SJ.
21 July 2013, 11:19 AM
#41
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Interesting thread this.
40 posts and I can't see a very relevant word anywhere (apols if it has been mentioned).
That guy on nasoic almost got there.
He mentions that while people increase braking power when they up the power in the car they don't do anything if they 'add 200lb of stereo equipment to it'.
The word I'm referring to is momentum.
Brakes don't stop cars etc. per se, they retard its momentum down to zero.
Not being pedantic, but it's important to bear that in mind.
Momentum is weight x speed, so theoretically huge brakes and OE brakes have the same amount of effort to put in when stopping the car.
However, impetus has a part to play. And a 400 bhp machine provides far more than a 250 bhp one.
Therefore the rate of retardation ie. reduction in momentum of the 400bhp car is less than for a 250 bhp one, since the engine is 'pushing' it more powerfully through the deceleration phase.
I'll give a practical example.
Mine is running 373/389.
If I do a brisk overtaking manoeuvre (which I often do on a particular straight stretch of road in my area) I hit about 80. I then lay off the go pedal and believe it or not can go about 1/2 mile before needing to brake because the 30 limit's coming.
That's how much momentum and impetus is in the car.
The turbo is still spinning and driving the car forward, and a bigger turbo ie. more powerful engine, pushes the car forward more powerfully.
Therefore you would need more powerful brakes in order to stop in the same distance, unless of course the OE's were capable of handling the extra power.
40 posts and I can't see a very relevant word anywhere (apols if it has been mentioned).
That guy on nasoic almost got there.
He mentions that while people increase braking power when they up the power in the car they don't do anything if they 'add 200lb of stereo equipment to it'.
The word I'm referring to is momentum.
Brakes don't stop cars etc. per se, they retard its momentum down to zero.
Not being pedantic, but it's important to bear that in mind.
Momentum is weight x speed, so theoretically huge brakes and OE brakes have the same amount of effort to put in when stopping the car.
However, impetus has a part to play. And a 400 bhp machine provides far more than a 250 bhp one.
Therefore the rate of retardation ie. reduction in momentum of the 400bhp car is less than for a 250 bhp one, since the engine is 'pushing' it more powerfully through the deceleration phase.
I'll give a practical example.
Mine is running 373/389.
If I do a brisk overtaking manoeuvre (which I often do on a particular straight stretch of road in my area) I hit about 80. I then lay off the go pedal and believe it or not can go about 1/2 mile before needing to brake because the 30 limit's coming.
That's how much momentum and impetus is in the car.
The turbo is still spinning and driving the car forward, and a bigger turbo ie. more powerful engine, pushes the car forward more powerfully.
Therefore you would need more powerful brakes in order to stop in the same distance, unless of course the OE's were capable of handling the extra power.
Last edited by LuckyWelshchap; 21 July 2013 at 11:20 AM. Reason: SJ got one in, so number of prior posts now = 40 !
21 July 2013, 11:58 AM
#44
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The easiest way I can think to explain is this:
Consider identical cars, one with 300bhp and one of 200.
Let them coast to a stop from 50mph, only using engine braking.
The 200 bhp car will roll to a stop in a shorter distance than the 300 one.
Ignore stalling etc.
In fact you could measure it from 50-30 so you're in the same gear.
There's more residual impetus with a more powerful engine.
The physical difference probably isn't that much, but the brakes do have to overcome that greater 'push'.
Edit - sorry, forgot to mention:
If you put the cars into neutral and let them coast to 0 there will be no difference whatsoever, because there's no 'impulse power' from the engine.
Last edited by LuckyWelshchap; 21 July 2013 at 12:00 PM.
21 July 2013, 12:04 PM
#45
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Yes, probably through having to apply the brake harder, not least because there is less braking force applied due to the reduced area of contact between pads and disc.
21 July 2013, 12:11 PM
#47
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Just a question that's seems to of been missed why would u upgrade and engine to more horsepower if u are only doing the speed limits on the national highway if your running big power you would use it on track so would need better brakes not a standard car that's only used on the roads with no intention of driving it hard ??
21 July 2013, 12:15 PM
#48
Just a question that's seems to of been missed why would u upgrade and engine to more horsepower if u are only doing the speed limits on the national highway if your running big power you would use it on track so would need better brakes not a standard car that's only used on the roads with no intention of driving it hard ??
21 July 2013, 12:47 PM
#50
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Just a question that's seems to of been missed why would u upgrade and engine to more horsepower if u are only doing the speed limits on the national highway if your running big power you would use it on track so would need better brakes not a standard car that's only used on the roads with no intention of driving it hard ??
21 July 2013, 01:15 PM
#51
Not necessarily harder to stop.
The easiest way I can think to explain is this:
Consider identical cars, one with 300bhp and one of 200.
Let them coast to a stop from 50mph, only using engine braking.
The 200 bhp car will roll to a stop in a shorter distance than the 300 one.
Ignore stalling etc.
In fact you could measure it from 50-30 so you're in the same gear.
There's more residual impetus with a more powerful engine.
The physical difference probably isn't that much, but the brakes do have to overcome that greater 'push'.
Edit - sorry, forgot to mention:
If you put the cars into neutral and let them coast to 0 there will be no difference whatsoever, because there's no 'impulse power' from the engine.
The easiest way I can think to explain is this:
Consider identical cars, one with 300bhp and one of 200.
Let them coast to a stop from 50mph, only using engine braking.
The 200 bhp car will roll to a stop in a shorter distance than the 300 one.
Ignore stalling etc.
In fact you could measure it from 50-30 so you're in the same gear.
There's more residual impetus with a more powerful engine.
The physical difference probably isn't that much, but the brakes do have to overcome that greater 'push'.
Edit - sorry, forgot to mention:
If you put the cars into neutral and let them coast to 0 there will be no difference whatsoever, because there's no 'impulse power' from the engine.
The way i see it, Most people who upgrade their brakes because of upping the power will use that power whether they will mention it on a forum or not.....Whats the point of modding if you are not going to use it....Exactly the same situation with the brakes, Bigger brakes = more heat dissipation = better braking without brake fade which is the general reason for upping the stopping power....Not so you can stop from 30mph or 50mph quicker
21 July 2013, 01:27 PM
#53
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Right and wrong...Regarding engine braking...What if they are running different compression ratio`s...Ie bigger bangs?
The way i see it, Most people who upgrade their brakes because of upping the power will use that power whether they will mention it on a forum or not.....Whats the point of modding if you are not going to use it....Exactly the same situation with the brakes, Bigger brakes = more heat dissipation = better braking without brake fade which is the general reason for upping the stopping power....Not so you can stop from 30mph or 50mph quicker
The way i see it, Most people who upgrade their brakes because of upping the power will use that power whether they will mention it on a forum or not.....Whats the point of modding if you are not going to use it....Exactly the same situation with the brakes, Bigger brakes = more heat dissipation = better braking without brake fade which is the general reason for upping the stopping power....Not so you can stop from 30mph or 50mph quicker
).The other performance issue/improvement is that a more powerful car can get to and enter the braking zone quicker but then as a result needs to be slowed to optimal speed quicker as well.
In that respect as well you're right imo. You want the brakes to be more effective and for longer ie. reduce fade.
21 July 2013, 04:34 PM
#55
I did about 2 miles on my 4pots with mintex 1144's or 55's can't remember which, with 332/329 and faded badly so got rid of them the same week for a set of jag brembo's with 356mm discs, Never got fade once with them, Using the same pad obviously bigger though.
21 July 2013, 10:17 PM
#59
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IMHO most four pots have at least one seized....
LoL
dunx
P.S. Very amused at some of the rubbish in this thread, is this US based ?
LoL
dunx
P.S. Very amused at some of the rubbish in this thread, is this US based ?
