ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

@ fpan.

Finally a voice of reason .

Just to be clear, i'm in no way decrying the litchfield cars, i'm sure they are fantastic at what they were Modified to do, which is my basic point, it's a modded car end of, I fully understand the appeal of them when new, already modded JDM STI/Spec C with a 3yr warranty, fantastic if that's what your after.

Is that worth a premium now? not in my eyes, will it be at some time in the future? not for me it won't, I agree with Maz a standard JDM STI or SPEC C will be worth more in times to come.

But hey, you pays your money and makes your choice.

Type20Paul

Have sent you a PM with some details of mine. Hope that helps

53

iTrader: (41)

Lol have you learnt nothing ? It's not straight out the box, it's bought by Litchfield and modified using aftermarket parts. Their branding gives the illusion of completeness from said box but it's not, it's just modified to a formula that everyone else knows about and is capable of lol. It's not unique it's not got any magical Litchfield properties, it's just got a shiny badge and a warranty when new You could spec this to a new car from any specialist, it's just that Litchfield has been successful in marketing this particular product package Well I say successfully but there are only 16 T20 Hawks

'Out the box' is just branding brainwashing at it's best

Other examples of 'better' Subaru's....

TSL 333 I can remember the smug bellends that used to get all moist claiming they had a TSL 333

T20, great car but it's nothing more than a marketing opportunity to exploit some Subaru owners who wish to buy into something more 'exclusive'.

And there's nothing wrong with that

Type20Paul

I have printer in my office. All the internals of it are HP but a company called isys have fitted a few extra parts and rewritten its software so now it prints exclusively oil well logs. It's an out of the box solution for well log printing. Does it matter that the original printer was imported by isys and then modified? Nope. I bought it new as an out of the box solution to a log printing requirement in new condition and with a warranty. And the T20 was the same. It doesn't matter that Litchfield didn't build the car and simply carried out a formulaic modification of it, you could still buy it new as a solution to the problem of wanting a new Impreza with a bit extra. I really don't get the obsession with the semantics of this. I mean 'brainwashing'. Really? Litchfield made no secret of what their cars were/are. I have the email from Ian Litchfield sent to the previous owner of my car where it describes how they started with a JDM STI and exactly what they did to it. And yet everyone seems to be making this out to be a cynical marketing exercise? Why? Because someone bought a pile of cars, improved them (and before anyone says it, of course what Litchfield did by way of modification will not be what everyone thing is best any more than what AMG do the to the C-Class is to all Merc owners tastes) and sold them with a badge to identify what had been done to them? And it just so happens that some of these products were met with great reviews - like the T25 in EVO, for example. The T cars are what Litchfield sold them as - sensibly modified Japanese import Imprezas.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

I keep telling them but they won't have it.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

Using your logic does that not mean any special edition with a couple of added bits is guilty of the same. Say for example an S202 from Subaru. What's so special about them? Are they worth the premium they command? Are they that much better than the model they're based on?
I'm playing Devil's Advocate here but my point stands. You can't point the finger at others when you're doing the same thing. Just because the model comes from Subaru doesn't negate the philosophy.

thenewgalaxy

Thanks Shaun I didn't know that. I was under the impression that it ran stock internals, from the Evo/Autocar articles and then from the rant Iain had when I was in the car with him once about all the MkI cars blowing up - I had no reason to believe any different.

From a buyer's perspective you kind of know what you're getting with a type 20 or type 25.

I have read many an advert with "500bhp build by ...." and then lost interest as it lists hundreds of mods.

I rightly or wrongly think "hmm was that done to the best standard, were shortcuts taken, is that more to go wrong..." etc.

I know full well when it comes to the Type xx that you're more likely to be buying a known quantity.

There are obviously examples from the project threads and members galleries on here that are far more desirable but many casual enthusiasts are probably going to go for the well known Litchfield name.

tubbytommy

iTrader: (20)

"its the best because ive got one"

"now im upset a the vast majority of scoobynet know its just a lightly tuned jdm car and not the all conquering beast i think it is."

oh well ill toddle of and post more 700 word self righteous posts.




seriously though its a very good car probably bought by people that read evo and watch fifth gear.


enthusiasts know what it really is and how its overpriced and would probably opt for a standard jdm model and mod it themselves.

fpan

iTrader: (11)

@ ditchmyster, thanks

@ Einstain RA, I am not pooh poohing the Litchfield Ts but speaking from experience of my own car, a Forester STi (which people call a Litchfield - imported new in the country by Litchfield and came with AST suspension and a Milltek system).

The subject suspension is something completely subjective indeed but when you try to move fast on a bumpy B-road you will find out that with the AST suspension the car is not planted and often looses contact with the ground.

Do that in a standard car and you can move a lot faster having a lot more confidence.

Have you driven both a standard and a car with ASTs on a bumpy B road fast?

I've kept my Milltek for 4 years but found it too boomy lately, or I am getting old

JTinnovations

iTrader: (2)

The original Milltek centre pipe had either no resonator, or a small one - later ones have a much bigger one and that really quietens it down and de-booms it. I've had both so know

I now have a Milltek sports-cat equipped centre pipe and that's as quiet as the larger-resonated version. And my car still delivers just shy of 500bhp on VPower with it fitted

53

iTrader: (41)

How am I doing the same thing. I have never mentioned my S202 or claimed exclusivity for owning one

Yes the logic is the same although the integrtity of an S202 is greater than a T20. I bought mine for the 'spec' not for the exclusivity. It's also has more engineering pedigree than a T20 10 years ago it was £40k which is ludicrous money

What engine work has the T20 had ? If you were looking to buy a modified Subaru in the same stable as a T20 you wouldn't be looking at a 500bhp engine rebuild.

Don't confuse the T25 with the T20 for the purposes of this discussion. As I already mentioned, the T25 is worthy of recognition, it has bespoke parts and engineering beyond the market and original manufacture. The T20 leeches off the USP of the T25 for the purposes of premium pricing and a more comprehensive tuning shop front.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

I do fully agree with your sentiment. It's been happening for years and the vast majority of so called specials across the selling spectrum are little more than style over substance. Some people are prepared to pay for it some aren't. It's all part of the game though. A company produces a product that is very good, then uses that success to generate further business via further so called specials. Are they value for money? Yes and no. Looking at it objectively with cold hard analysis it's a no. However car purchase of this sort is rarely objective. Subjectively yes they are worth it. They're worth it because they have pedigree provenance, special edition moniker and above all great to drive. It's a very grey area.....,,

thenewgalaxy

A Type 20 would be a good place to start if you wanted something waiting for a power hike.

It's had a filter and a remap as far as I'm aware, I think they were all running around 340bhp and mapped to unleaded fuel. I wasn't necessarily referring to the engine when it comes to the type 20, but it is nice to know that it's been mapped nicely.

I was more referring to the brakes and suspension setup. Those cars have been designed subject to testing and development rather than bits just added according to a buyer's desire. The overall balance and setup of those cars is brilliant.

JC-R

Well one good thing about social websites is thet its certainly made me read alot more

The way im looking at all this is -

I hopefully at some point next year will want to buy either a hawkeye JDM Spec C or The T20 or T25 hawkeyes.

Do i - Buy a jdm spec c and spend the cash on replacing the suspension , rollbars , linkages, turbo i think ?, complete front brakes i think ?, and a remap.

Or i - Buy a T20 or T25

Either car i buy will need to be approx 35k miles or less , would need to be mint , fsh, and near as damit to standard spec.

Wich one of the above cars would be cheapest for me in the long run ?
And which one will sell for the most amount if i was to sell in about 3 years with say 50k miles with still fsh and still in extremelly good condition ?

tubbytommy

iTrader: (20)

id go for condition and history above anthing else

Osimabu

iTrader: (2)

I'd suggest the Litchfield will be worth more, simply because it's a Litchfield.

Regardless of whether Litchfield T20s are worse, the same or better than a non-T20 fitted with the same parts, they are generally held in higher esteem simply because they were supplied as a complete brand new car by a recognised Subaru tuning specialist, not as a modified second hand one built by who knows who.

I agree with Tommy about the condition and history as well though.

JC-R

[quote=tubbytommy;11226420]id go for condition and history above anthing else[/quote

Yes but what if the cond and history was the same ?

tubbytommy

iTrader: (20)

[QUOTE=John C Type R;11226425]depends if you really want a litchfield car i guess.

as you can see in the thread some people love then others just see them as a tuner special edition.

either car is a great buy so i wouldnt worry.

a litchfield car is better than a standard jdm car, but a tuned jdm car depending on parts fitted could be better for an enthusiast.

Osimabu

iTrader: (2)

I agree with Tommy again. (But will this make Mr Ditch jealous as I gather you two are 'an item'...!)

JC-R

[quote=tubbytommy;11226430]Thanks Tommy your a nice chap really just miss understood i think
do you want to be my car fwend ?

fpan

iTrader: (11)

Why plan to replace things e.g. the suspension before even driving the car in standard form?

You replace/improve something you need to drive it standard first and see what you like/don't like.

Don't fall into the trap of doing it because others have done it and rave about it.

Especially the suspension is something completely subjective.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

Careful John, you'll be subjected to a pitchfork up your **** when you least expect it!

WUZ

iTrader: (14)

The AST's on my 04 JDM are just perfect on 3 from soft on Front and 1 from soft on Rear othe roads out here in Inverurie/Insch/Oldmeldrum

I just stiffen them up when it goes on track.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Hand's off my b!tch or i'll scratch your eyes out.

I hear Gayallen is currently single and looking for someone to ream him.

I think as usual, anything is worth what someone is willing to pay, so if you feel the T** has that special something you want to buy into, then you'll pay extra for it.

JC-R

Yes good point , and i would live with it all in standard form for a few months , but more than likely id be changing these things i.e handling and performance to reach over the magic 400 hp reliably.
Suspension would probably be first on the list as i doubt very much that the standard ones will be as good as the tein super streets that i had on my last hawk . The gold brembos may stay but id be sticking the pf discs and pads on them as i really liked them again on my last hawk .
Yes i could buy a T20 or T25 and possibly not be happy with the power or the handling , But if this was the case then i would be taking it to litchfiels for them to investigate.

JC-R

That's ok , its happened to me before literally

thenewgalaxy

Agreed about buying a car subject to condition and history

BUT

I wouldn't think about a Type 20 if you literally plan on gutting the thing.

They are out there in hot form with Porsche brakes and LM400 turbos (400bhp) but really if that doesn't float your boat and you plan on uprating every aspect of the car including suspension, brakes, power etc then it might be a good idea to start with a boggo JDM car.

JC-R

Im not planning on touching the T20 or 25, if they are as good as what people say they are then i'll only be driving it and no modding.

Totally agree that if my intension was moddin g then it would definetlly be a standard JDM

Kedlestone

iTrader: (9)

Type RA-R gets my vote, think they might but over your budget though...?

JC-R

What the fick is an ra-r ??