GlesgaKiss

But Hodgy, it has always been the case that to afford a 5 bedroom house and that sort of lifestyle you have to work fvcking hard. It has always been reserved to some degree for those who are fortunate in life.

In the academic sphere, maybe people are having to raise their game, but that is in part due to the fact many degrees do not hold the same value they did years ago, as more and more people are getting them.

In my line of work (skilled labour), employers struggle to find young people like school leavers who want to work. It's a shi*tty outside job sometimes, sure, but the money is there if you want it. With a bit of common sense you can have a comfortable life. But having said that, I work with a guy who spends his wage every week so he's skint again by the next pay day.

JTaylor

A permanently full fruit bowel doesn't seem much of a privilege.

GlesgaKiss

Life would be much less interesting.

jonc

For most, it's either half full or half empty!

Matteeboy

I'm imtrigued by the full fruit bowel? Is that some new diet fad? Like a fruit juice enema? ;-)

tony de wonderful

Not my 'worldview' no. How professions 'function' is an empirical question. I can back my claim with Max Weber and his social closure ideas.

Lydia72

Hodgy's family:

GlesgaKiss

Don't flatter yourself. "A profession is a social GROUP which you join, it's a group which closes out competition to protect its members and secure them privileges. It's like a club."

It's clearly nothing more than an opinion. It might be an empirical question but what does that tell us about how you choose to describe it?

Ok, so it's a worldview based on someone else's ideas. Is that fair to say?

fatscoobfella1

iTrader: (1)

tony de wonderful

Can anyone practice medicine? Who gets to define what even is 'the right way' to do medicine.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Or twice as big as it needs to be

john banks

Legislation and our registration body define the rights and responsibilities of a doctor. Neither are there to protect their members, but to protect patients. For clarity, I am not referring to the BMA here of which I am not even a member.

After getting a place at medical school, you have to pass a lot of exams (not just written) which some find difficult, present yourself well, follow the law and a code of ethics/standards involving on going demonstrations of quality, knowledge, ability, safety and patient/colleague feedback. This is usually considered to be a lot of hard work.

Getting into medical school requires elements of the above, but the success rate of becoming and remaining a doctor (once you have a medical school place) if you wish to is high.

I am very much not from the background which tends to enter medicine. I have not found anyone trying to keep me out, but found an egalitarian profession with the highest standards which welcomes you when you spend decades meeting and hopefully enhancing their standards. Even if some assessment methods are criticised, they are aimed at protecting patients.

You can try and make it something else, but you are an ill informed outsider and your views have no connection with the reality I see as an insider.

john banks

Can't agree more, and with Hodgy. It probably isn't just a modern phenomenon that nearing 40 I am seriously unimpressed with the attitudes and work ethic of most 20 year olds I come across, but it does appear from unemployment in this group that my contemporaries who want to employ them find a bunch of entitled wasters.

tony de wonderful

It's irrelevant whether a profession 'intends' to protects its members or not because that is what it actually does even if you rationalise this as being for the benefit of the patient, or whatever.

Like I said, who gets to decide what even counts as medical knowledge, the right way to practise medicine. It's the profession of course. It's shutting out other forms of medical knowledge (.competition) alternatives in medicine, to the advantage of the profession and its members.

It's a long way from an idealised conception of social relations where scattered and atomised individuals simpily exchange things with each other. Here we have a solidarity, a social group before anything.

tony de wonderful

They are just doing what there are trained to do. I know what you mean though but I don't like all this young person bashing just cos they don't have the same worldview as 'we' (older, successful, in positions of power) do.

john banks

Indeed markjmd, couldn't say it better.

Tdw is behaving like a victim again, hiding behind philosophical and sociological views that have no relevance that I can see to putting a roof over your head and heating/eating under it. Perhaps if he did something economically useful instead of spouting this junk he would be less of a victim and not feel inadequate by criticising the success of others. Instead he will probably opt out and live in a bath or something, all of his own making. Arguably he only has the warmth and comfort to philosophise (or rather regurgitate whatever module he has studied this week) due to the economy he so much denigrates.

Yes I do think many less economically driven studies are a waste of resources, maybe if the young thought this way they wouldn't study useless degrees and then turn up for a job and not have anything useful to offer but expect £20k.

JTaylor

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

FPMSL!

(Kids' names are not nearlly pretentous enough though -- should have been circa Tarquin and Guinevere lol)

tony de wonderful

That's an impoverished, philistine, and authoritarian worldview.

Chip

Not always the case

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...poor-area.html

john banks

I am afraid that I don't have the time to school you in enough epidemiology and evidence based medicine for us to have even the framework for a debate on this topic. There is a need for a regulated profession because even most intelligent people have so little knowledge of medicine that they make some very strange medical decisions which they lack the framework to debate. In some consultations, 90% of people expect a certain intervention to happen, but using an evidence base the doctor will only want to do this intervention 2% of the time. Even after explanation, most of the unregulated would still do an intervention that does more harm then good and involves a large dose of ionising radiation. How would you prevent this unless their livelihood was on the line to force them to make difficult decisions that often produce conflict?

Medical interventions are dangerous. It is ludicrous to deregulate this, as it would be regulation in other dangerous industries especially where the conclusions are often counterintuitive.

GlesgaKiss

Well it's not as open an activity as, say, criticising people/things on an internet forum because a book says they're bad.

john banks

Why is it each of those things? If more people did things that were economically useful, we would still have literature, art, music. Or do you think that the arts are not driven by money or that artists don't need a warm house with a fruit bowl?

If you agree that some youth are not economically successful because of their life choices and attitudes, do you really think it is the rest of society that should bend towards them and pay their gas bill for them to philosophise all day?

RA Dunk

Tony do you eat dictionaries for breakfast?

Chip

SJ_Skyline

No point in trying to make sense of Tony's ramblings, far easier just to sit back and

hodgy0_2

A nice big bowl stacked full of ripe colourful fruit is a good metaphore for lots of things in life.


(And might also explain why we seem to spend £250 week on food)

hodgy0_2

Aha, very good, and pretty close, although my wife and children have slightly posher accents ( genuinely)

In fact at this very moment my third child Gala, is preparing some celeriac for the Sunday roast

Most of our cheese is sourced locally, however we do buy our Parmigiano, in bulk and direct from Italy.

GlesgaKiss

Are you a member of any elite groups by any chance?

Or just a fat cvnt?

tony de wonderful

That's one theory of art, I suppose, albeit a rather crude one and depressing one. Of course such a theory invalidates itself because it isn't 'useful' in the sense it doesn't exchange into money, just idle philosophising.

Anyway I'm just saying I don't think I have the right to decide what 'the right way' is for other people to live. The more I hear it from others the more it appears an unwarranted authoritarianism, even when the discourse is in the language of liberalism.