Gordo

Did anyone see the programme on Israel's nuclear arsenal the other night?

Unbelievable, I have mixed views on Iraq but the position the US and UN take in respect of Israel puts it into stark contrast.

Israel has 'secretly' been making nuclear weapons with a reactor for that very purpose since the 1960s. Not particularly clear why this very far from perfect country is allowed to continue with this (maybe because there are more Jews in New York than Israel?). Israel is now a major holder of nuclear weapons (circa 400 of varying types).

The reactor in question is actually protected from prying eyes by the US (e.g. they block detailed images from civilian satellites for ONLY Israel). UN resolutions have never applied to or questioned Israels unauthorised nuclear programme. Whilst Israel has broken every UN resolution ever applied to it, inspectors have never been sent to inspect their weapons of mass destruction. The reactor is still running but is believed to be extrememly unstable and poorly maintained.

I do not condone the actions of the fundamentalists in the Middle East in the slightest, but it's difficult not to have some sympathy with their hatred of the US with such blatant support for an (arguably equally) fundamentalist nation given by the US. Noone bats an eyelid when Israel commits atrocities on a daily basis in Palestine and the West Bank. And yet Israel surely poses as much of a threat to world peace with their daily nuclear threat (sorry, deterrent) to peace in the Middle East?

Good job we're going to sort that out by trimming Saddam's moustache for him. That'll make the Middle East much safer!

Go figure
Gordo

[Edited by Gordo - 19/03/2003 11:23:50]

Luke

Soooooooooooooooooo none "PC".

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Entirely agree, nad have been posting similar "why not the Israelis?" comments for ages.

Gordo

Luke, I.m not sure I understand, why is this not PC?

I am not anti-semitic in the slightest (I have many Jewish friends and worked in Israel for 6 months just after the last Gulf War), but am continually aghast at the hyprocisy and apparent nervousness about even talking about it that are applied to Israel.

Look forward to hearing peoples' views!
Gordo

Luke

Thats right...

scooby-new

Its possible to be anti-Israel without being racist. I'm pro jew and anti Israel. IMHO its a terrorist state occupying land in someone elses country. It has a track record of political assasination at home and abroad. It destroys the houses of innocent people and commits murder routinely. It is dominated by religious zealots.Scary- maybe the Americans should invade there next- Oh I forgot many of the most violent fundametalist "Israelis" are actually Americans who have decided to live there.

Katana

What has Israel done wrong huh? All they're doing is defending their rights to have a nation!

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

Isreal has the capabilty to fight back IRAQ does not so America is like the bully in the play ground it will only attack the smaller kid who can not defend himself.

Gordo

Katana, you serious? bless.

http://www.middleeastnews.com/unresolutionslist.html

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

These are just two from a quick search on the internet - I have avoided the barking and zealous commentary from both sides in some of the links out there!

G

scooby-new

Katana- imagine that there are a group of people who thousands of years ago used to have a homeland in Britain. After a world war and a bitter terrorist campaign it is decided that they have the right to return. They are given land in the best part of Britain, they have a good tactical base are given many billions to build up their army and infrastructure. Then they decide that what they have isn't enough and start to occupy land around "their country". They also attack Britains near neighbours and develop a nuclear capability. This alienates all countries in the region.
How would you feel about them, as one of the Brits still allowed to live in your homeland?

This is exactly what happened in the middle east with Israel. It has existed for less than a century and is a major cause of world unrest. That is what is wrong with Israel.

Katana

You mean like Northern Ireland?

Damn, all these liberals ganging up against me.

Holy Ghost

mordechai vanunu. what a splendid name.

so the israelis developed a nuke. in the light of the arab-israeli wars of the 60s & 70s with egypt and syria, it was hardly surprising was it?

with a huge jewish lobby, the US soft-pedalling on its only true middle-east ally is also hardly surprising.

simple deterrence innit. its very existence keeps the syrians, the egyptians, the iranians, the iraqis and the saudis off their backs. we've done it: why should they feel they are any different?

i take no sides in the palestine/israel argument because both sides are wrong. the palestinian militants behave like animals and the israelis behave in kind when both sets of people need a place to live. it's a ridiculous deadlock of tit-for-tat violent extremism.

sharon is an intransigent ****. arafat is utterly useless. wrong people in the wrong place at the wrong time.

scooby-new

situation is different from Northern Ireland in many ways.......but if you want my opinion it should be reunited with Eire.

edited to add- its strange how people always draw some parallel with another situation as if that somehow mitigates one against the other. try thinking objectively about Israel- read some history books then argue a point based on your understanding of the truth.

[Edited by scooby-new - 19/03/2003 12:08:03]

Gordo

Holy Ghost

I agree - I do not take sides are they're all barking (I would suggest there are more than two sides involved with all the religious factions etc).

I am highlighting the hyprocisy in conjunction with the current 'crisis' and the apparent apathy the UN and in particular the US have displayed to the atrocities committed in the region over the years. The nuclear weapons can be argued from a deterrent perspective, but would we allow any of the Arab countries to have built up such an arsenal to protect themselves from Israel? The ongoing war crimes in the region cannot be discarded quite so readily.

G

turboman786

An interesting point is that many Jews do not believe in God......Ive read up 50% do not believ in God...in that case who exactly promised them this land??

Isreal is the true threat to world pace IMHO...the bltant defier of UN resolutions...but d they get attacked.....no cos of the huge Zionist lobby in the US/UK

Gordo

I saw data when I was there in 1991 stating that only a third of the population were Jews a third Moslems and a third Christians (interesting that this sort of data never has a category for atheists or agnostics!). Of the third who were Jewish, Turboman is right that half claimed to be atheists (getting race and religion confused, as do many in the world). Thus only 1/6th of the population were believed to be religious Jews. You then sub-divide this into the various sects (of which there are many) and you begin to get a feel for how the Knesset (Israeli parliament) ends up with so many elected parties and alliances (circa 30 last time I looked).

Nice. But let's not worry about sorting it out, it's all toooooo scary! Iraq, mind, that's much easier........

G

Holy Ghost

fair point gordo.

all i would say in response is that, for better or worse, israel is a democracy with an elected government. there isn't a single arab state in the region that is. they all have varying degrees of imposed autocracy.

democracy places natural controls on the use of these weapons. autocracy does not. therefore, i feel i can trust a nuclear israel to be responsible. i could not trust a nuclear syria, iran or iraq to behave similarly. just an observation.

merkin

Perhaps you would like to tell me how Israel is ever supposed to make peace with a people who have previously stated they wont be happy until Israel no longer exists, and nothing less will do??

Brendan Hughes

I genuinely don't know - IS Israel a democracy with an elected government? Are the Moslems (and Christians) allowed to vote there?

I always used the same argument about N. Ireland, and then I found out that the Brits had suppressed the Catholics' right to vote, thus skewing the democracy in favour of the UK.

Am willing to be corrected, I know very little on this. But some of the things I hear about Israel (perhaps as I read left-wing press at the mo) make me think it sounds not far off a system of apartheid.

Sorry if I'm mistaken.

krankyd

don't forget palestine was given soverign land at the end of WWII. They turned it down.

They were offered 95% of what they asked for at camp david.

But they turned it down, beause it was next to their life-long enemy.

well, bully for them. If they are not able to accept that in the 20th century compramise is called for, they will continue to live in an occupied state under imposed rule.

Holy Ghost

good point,

your average anti-jew arab rhetoric could have come straight from the SS wannsee conference of 1942.

you should listen to some of the stuff that gets broadcast on al-jazeera. the intensity of racist hatred is frightening, beyond anything i've ever heard.

daiscooby

Firstly Isreal.

The Isreali's were handed a mandate to self govern from the UK government in the then region of Palesatine in 1947 IIRC. Mainly filled out with displaced Jews from Europe and Russia. Some of the nations around; Egypt, Syria, and Jordan got p*ssed off and attacked the new state of Isreal when the Brits pulled out. Isreal defended itself and was a hairs bredth from defeat. What then developed was a bit of a Cold War thing with Russia backing said Egypt and co and the US with pressure from it's massive jewish population sided with Isreal. Several wars later they made friends sort of in 1979. By this time Egypt and Isreal had developed primitive nuclear capabilities, along with Lybia and possibly Syria. Now they play shot me shot you with the Palestinians, who are neither Jewish or Muslims but Christians IIRC, and both sides are as bad as each other.

Ireland, belongs to the Irish and not to the English. All Irish people would live in harmony and contentment if left to there own devices ( non nuclear ). I am half Northern Irish and have spent extended periods there, not in camo. 90% of the people live in total harmony and tolerance, 10% want deporting to Antartica to carry on fighting and provide much needed food for penguins.

I am now retreating ( in a French Styleee ) from the bullets heading my way

[Edited by daiscooby - 19/03/2003 12:58:22]

krankyd

>>I am now retreating ( in a French Styleee ) from the bullets heading my way
Why should you have to feel you've gotta retreat?

You are right to say what you feel, and if other people want to argue and belittle it, more fool them..

daiscooby

Only going by past reactions

turboman786

Daiscooby...I think you'll find that the vast majority of the Palestinians are Muslims, although there are many Palestinian Christians too...