How long would Israel last without the US
07 January 2003, 02:07 PM
#1
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don't underestimate the israelis.
to say they are reliant on the US for their survival is something of a simplistic overstatement: it neither reflects historical precedent nor a national character forged in the blood of generations and genocide.
remember what happened to the egyptians and the syrians when they had a go? at a time when israel was considerably weaker than it is now (and with less western support and investment than today).
whatever one may think of them, they're as tough as old boots, determined as hell and haven't forgotten the holocaust.
the french, russians, chinese and hey, even the germans, would be more than happy to sell them those arms they do not produce themselves. the french do it anyway and their home grown gear is, as i understand it, sophisticated and of good quality.
they also have a nuclear arsenal, which is a *huge* regional deterrent for the hard core, anti-semitic islamic fundamentalists. no arab, not even the maddest of mad mullahs, would contemplate initiating a situation where their own capitals - or even mecca - might face obliteration in reprisal.
but no doubt, a middle east without US input would be ten times as dangerous as it is now. and an israel without US input would truly become a wild card with no external controls - and vastly more unpredictable to boot. extreme circumstances always produce extreme politics: a US-free israel would would merely generate even more extreme policies and personalities to match the worst excesses of their arab counterparts. with all the security implications that go with that.
all academic though as such a set of awful circumstances will not arise in our lifetimes. (never say never, as telboy once pointed out).
i think it's more a case of the entire middle east owing its continued survival to the moderating and re-balancing actions of the rest of the world, however inefficient or meddling they may be.
[Edited by Holy Ghost - 7/1/2003 2:10:33 PM]
to say they are reliant on the US for their survival is something of a simplistic overstatement: it neither reflects historical precedent nor a national character forged in the blood of generations and genocide.
remember what happened to the egyptians and the syrians when they had a go? at a time when israel was considerably weaker than it is now (and with less western support and investment than today).
whatever one may think of them, they're as tough as old boots, determined as hell and haven't forgotten the holocaust.
the french, russians, chinese and hey, even the germans, would be more than happy to sell them those arms they do not produce themselves. the french do it anyway and their home grown gear is, as i understand it, sophisticated and of good quality.
they also have a nuclear arsenal, which is a *huge* regional deterrent for the hard core, anti-semitic islamic fundamentalists. no arab, not even the maddest of mad mullahs, would contemplate initiating a situation where their own capitals - or even mecca - might face obliteration in reprisal.
but no doubt, a middle east without US input would be ten times as dangerous as it is now. and an israel without US input would truly become a wild card with no external controls - and vastly more unpredictable to boot. extreme circumstances always produce extreme politics: a US-free israel would would merely generate even more extreme policies and personalities to match the worst excesses of their arab counterparts. with all the security implications that go with that.
all academic though as such a set of awful circumstances will not arise in our lifetimes. (never say never, as telboy once pointed out).
i think it's more a case of the entire middle east owing its continued survival to the moderating and re-balancing actions of the rest of the world, however inefficient or meddling they may be.
[Edited by Holy Ghost - 7/1/2003 2:10:33 PM]
24 June 2003, 02:19 PM
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surely though most yanks must not like being at the receivign end of such animosity from the arab world
surely they could just give them New Mexico ship all the isrealis over there and give the palestinians the land? no?
seems a solution to me
surely they could just give them New Mexico ship all the isrealis over there and give the palestinians the land? no?
seems a solution to me
27 June 2003, 05:37 PM
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I wouldn't like to see what would happen if they suddenly stopped though, would you?
ATEOD the Israelis and the Palestinians both want the same land and at the moment it hasn't sunk in that talk is better than guns. In the current climate it'll take a middle eastern version of Omagh before anything changes.
:-(
Vindaloo.
ATEOD the Israelis and the Palestinians both want the same land and at the moment it hasn't sunk in that talk is better than guns. In the current climate it'll take a middle eastern version of Omagh before anything changes.
:-(
Vindaloo.
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01 July 2003, 05:06 PM
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Recently read a comment, saying that the relationship between Israel and USA is similar to the tail wagging the dog.......made me chuckle...but then I realised its bloody true, hence stopped chuckling.
02 July 2003, 11:16 AM
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israel's GDP in 2001 was $111bn.
$6bn - not a lot is it? roughly one sixth the annual defence budget of the UK and less than five per cent of our annual health and social services budget. so enough for say roughly eight large and fully equipped hospitals.
some perspective: bush has just pledged (may 2003) $15bn alone to tackle HIV in africa. plus africa is the single largest recipient of US foreign aid.
$6bn - not a lot is it? roughly one sixth the annual defence budget of the UK and less than five per cent of our annual health and social services budget. so enough for say roughly eight large and fully equipped hospitals.
some perspective: bush has just pledged (may 2003) $15bn alone to tackle HIV in africa. plus africa is the single largest recipient of US foreign aid.
02 July 2003, 03:32 PM
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oh turbo,
there are more than 220 nations on this planet. $15bn from one, albeit the world's richest, ain't bad going and represents a long overdue step change in what's needed.
last time i checked, i didn't realise that the US had to write out cheques for all the world's problems. duh.
what, pray, are the rich-as-croesus arab OPEC states contributing to solving this problem?
there are more than 220 nations on this planet. $15bn from one, albeit the world's richest, ain't bad going and represents a long overdue step change in what's needed.
last time i checked, i didn't realise that the US had to write out cheques for all the world's problems. duh.
what, pray, are the rich-as-croesus arab OPEC states contributing to solving this problem?
02 July 2003, 04:43 PM
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True £15bn aint bad at all......but the question that still ges to be asked is wtf has Israel ever done for us/USA? (apart from made us the target for future terrorsit attacks)....why should Israel get OUR tax money?? Especially when they breach over 46 UN resolutions ( at last count)...surely we should apply Iraqian logic and invade the *******....
02 July 2003, 08:56 PM
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surely we should apply Iraqian logic and invade the *******....
'Iraqian'(sic) logic couldn't/shouldn't/wouldn't be applied to Israel.
02 July 2003, 10:43 PM
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Andrew....as a Jew I'm sure you have read the old testament...or maybe you havn't but theres a great story called David and Goliath. The parable is true to this day and history bears witness that no civilisation, however mighty and seemingly powerful can exist forever. Every dog has its day. Power is a relative thing and history shows us how the powerful are destroyed because of their arrogance and excess.
And God is all powerful and justice will indeed prevail. If not today, tommorrow.
And God is all powerful and justice will indeed prevail. If not today, tommorrow.
07 July 2003, 04:46 PM
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turbo
to respond to your point about israeli breach of resolutions and applying the same force as employed against iraq.
the UN resolutions applied against israel are of a different type to those applied against iraq.
category VI resolutions have been applied against israel: of lesser severity, that means compliance is voluntary. the resolutions against iraq were category VII resolutions - the most severe - where compliance is mandatory and force is likely to follow.
it's a very important difference that the media don't like because it cuts across a good story by giving all the facts.
i hope this helps.
to respond to your point about israeli breach of resolutions and applying the same force as employed against iraq.
the UN resolutions applied against israel are of a different type to those applied against iraq.
category VI resolutions have been applied against israel: of lesser severity, that means compliance is voluntary. the resolutions against iraq were category VII resolutions - the most severe - where compliance is mandatory and force is likely to follow.
it's a very important difference that the media don't like because it cuts across a good story by giving all the facts.
i hope this helps.
07 July 2003, 05:10 PM
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Yes it is for them to decide. Do you think they will ever do it?
Do you think they apply standards equally at the UN? If so what should the outcome be in this case?
Also shouldn't Israel be complying with the UN in any case, without the need for such a resolution?
Do you think they apply standards equally at the UN? If so what should the outcome be in this case?
Also shouldn't Israel be complying with the UN in any case, without the need for such a resolution?
07 July 2003, 05:45 PM
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i doubt it. the UN has become an outdated anachronism that needs to be dismantled, rethought and recreated. it was designed for the cold war age. the only UN projects worth a damn are the WHO & UNICEF.
UN input to the israel-palestine problem has been a proven, abject failure over decades.
yes i think the isarelis should comply. yes i think the extremist palestinians need to stop suicide bombing. at the moment we have a pause where sensible negotiation is a possibility, albeit shaky. the bombers are quiet and the israelis have made some immediate concessions (and albeit with bad grace) following condoleeza rice's visit ten days ago. i hope that the americans are, at last, finally serious about kicking all parties into line. we shall see.
it will take great pressure from the US and EU to get this anywhere and i hope that the roadmap is not stillborn.
[Edited by Holy Ghost - 7/7/2003 5:46:45 PM]
UN input to the israel-palestine problem has been a proven, abject failure over decades.
yes i think the isarelis should comply. yes i think the extremist palestinians need to stop suicide bombing. at the moment we have a pause where sensible negotiation is a possibility, albeit shaky. the bombers are quiet and the israelis have made some immediate concessions (and albeit with bad grace) following condoleeza rice's visit ten days ago. i hope that the americans are, at last, finally serious about kicking all parties into line. we shall see.
it will take great pressure from the US and EU to get this anywhere and i hope that the roadmap is not stillborn.
[Edited by Holy Ghost - 7/7/2003 5:46:45 PM]
07 July 2003, 06:47 PM
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I couldn't agree more regarding the UN. It's in serious need of an overhaul.
I also hope that your sentiments regarding peace in the Middle East come true and that both sides can stop murdering each other. Sanity needs to prevail.
I also hope that your sentiments regarding peace in the Middle East come true and that both sides can stop murdering each other. Sanity needs to prevail.
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