swaussie

Disclaimer: Dont agree with Dictators and never will! Everyone should have the ability to choose how he wishes to live.

BUT

How do you possibly resolve all the issues they are having in Iraq with multiple religions claiming they are superior, killing those they feel are inferior and starting down a course of mutual self destruction without some type of dictatorship? I agree some of these attacks may be instigated by the likes of Bin Laden and his followers but I doubt they all are?

Can a true democracy work in Iraq? If a Prime minister or President who subscribes to one belief is chosen will the other religions follow him?

or honestly do they need another "Saddam" figurehead (albeit a friendly one without weapons of mass destruction and genocide on his mind) to rule with an iron fist and frighten everyone into obeying the law?

Geezer

Deomcracy does not suit everyone. In fact, we do not live in a true democracy. We only ever have a say once every 5 years, and the voting system we use means that the majority of the population are left with a government they don't really want.

Dicatators are ok if they rule wisely and justly, but that rarely seems to be the case.

I don't thinkn there ius an easy answer for such a volatile country, but forcing western style democracy on them is unlikely to solve the problem.

Geezer

The_Lizard

Seems to me that Saddam played a role similar to that of Tito; a strong central ruler holding together a fractured nation. So does this mean that Iraq will be "balkanized" or not...

RichWalk

Good point- why do you think George Bush didnt remove Saddam in 92'- the other options were far worse.

moses

saddam was a dick, what iraq needed was someone like gaddafi, he is better with his people of all factions that that saddam


gaddafi believes in unity even if he is a lil mad, saddam wanted power for his own family and his own baathists

Sbradley

Moses, you're almost bang on. Someone similar to Gaddafi, someone who is able to keep a lid on the sectarian infighting would probably have been the ideal leader in Iraq.

But.

Would they have been able to do (in their eyes) a deal with the devil to win, or at least survive, the Iran/Iraq war? I suspect not. In which case they'd have been overwhelmed and another radical Islamic republic would have been born. Then you'd have a whole different set of problems as the Saudis would have sh*t themselves and it would have been all aboard the skylark anyway...

Maybe Tito would have been a better bet after all. No religious background but at least some religious tolerance and a pretty fair leader despite being a ruthless b*stard at heart.

SB

moses

saddam wasnt really religious, the b'@stard used that after the ayatollah came in power, he saw the revival and he started using phrases of islamic unity and crap like that, he and his boys were muslims by name just like alot of other ones.


someone like gaddafi would be a good bet or even nasrullah the hizbollah leader, christians, sunnis and shia's in lebanon all have alot of respect for him and he treats them all the same, its cool actually.


and iran /iraq war was very sad indeed, im from a sunni family but had sympathy for the iranians, they didnt start it that saddam did and to pls his american masters.


iranian children were sent as suicide bombers against iraqi tanks, it still brings tears to the eyes of muslims, lil children at 11 ,12 and 15 for their country, iranians didnt really have an army, this saddam did and was supported by the americans.

Swearwords edited out............ Moses, please stop swearing!

The_Lizard

Not much of an improvement a few days ago when 140+ muslims were murdered while in rememberance of a muslim who was...















wait for it















...murdered.

moses

exactly , makes me sick in the heart


sick b@stards, dont know what their trying to prove, what did those innocent people in karbala ever do to them , whatever they are planning i hope it reverses back on them



sad thing is, their is no such thing as sunni, wahabi and shia in the quran and in islam

God says dont divide yourselves into sects, here goes we have sects.


in a family we all have differences, it will be silly to think we can all be the same, well we have arguements and debates or talk over things, as long as our concept is the same and what we do doesnt go against the family its cool but not go round killing each other

moses

by the way u ever seen the hezbollah website, for legal reasons they dont call it hezbollah but when i was a lil teenager i used to go their for the latest news



http://www.moqawama.tv/page2/main.htm

The_Lizard

It puzzles me, too. I know that christians have killed other christians for being in a different sect, but most if not all of that is in the past. These days it's usually just some smug attitude that says, in so many words, "I have the true path to salvation and you don't."

But why kill religous pilgrims, and how can anyone consider themselves nobly religious for performing such an act ... I have no idea.

Things like this make me glad that I do not adhere to any organized religion.

moses

i know , i was puzzled too, i couldnt feckin believe it, it was a holy day for sunnis and shia's and these so called muslims done this, i was actually shocked


wtf , everyone was quiet in the mosque, they couldnt believe what happened.


its sad i got a few iranians in my shop and i knew them, it was sad to see their faces.


see when people become arrogant and think their the best or most religious, this is what happens

for osama and people like him for them its ok to kill muslims coz theu justify it as well these muslims around the world "except for us" dont really practice islam might as well bomb them too to achieve their goal, better having a few pure muslims than muslims who justify their dictators and traitor leaders who are traitors to islam and God

so they justify what they do with this kinda ****



islam is the middle path God said dont go to extremes in your religion, God said that to the children of israel in the quran and gave us muslims a warning of not to do the same as our cousins, basically we will suffer the same fate of what our cousins did

Dougster

Guess who's watchin now Mo?

moses

lol watchin what mate , hear hear, dougster is gonna play marlyn monroe in edinburgh pmsl

Geezer

What is the deal between Jews and Muslims? The only differecne I can see is that Islam have Mohammed, and the Jews don't have a Messiah.

Enlighten me to the hatred that exists between 2 religions that worhsip the same God.

Geezer

swaussie

will there be some form of rigged voting ( if it ever gets to that point ) maybe something like only having 4 badass US supported leaders to choose from to put a "dont screw with me" type back in power?

what I would like to know is can our style of Democracy ever work in Iraq? Is there an example of a country with this type of religious sectarinism having a true democratic society?

moses

geezer its a cain and able thing

muslims never hated jews , look back in history they protected them from the christian crusades and from getting ethnic cleansed as a whole.

read the history yourself , dont take it from what the zionists say, ask the real JEW who knows about history


difference is, jews believe their the chosen race of God or the chosen people, this whole world was made for them and them only, im only quoting some parts of the talmud and their rabbis , coz their the chosen people their more superior than any other race.

some dont believe that of course but as a whole jews believe that as a teaching.


judaism isnt a religion from God, its not mentioned in the torah at all, we call the original hebrews muslims in my own religion, from the seed of abraham as the arabs are, but from 2 different mothersm the mother of the hebrews was a woman called sarah, us muslims call her our mother too but she is really a stepmum but a beloved mum, she was from iraqi origion same as abraham , dont know what iraqs were called that time, i dont know if they were called babylonians those times.

the mother of the arabs is called hagar or hajjara she was an egyptian and father abraham had a wife called keturah too she was from the middle east too.

we believe in the same God, same prophets and same father adam and abraham etc, but muslims believe Gods chosen are the people who believe in him and submit to his will and in islam their is no such thing as a chosen race , in the quran we are taught all children who are born in the world are muslims and its their parents who convert them to other religions.

islam means submit or to surrender to God or surrender to his will, so jews of old and christians of old are called muslims in the quran too, jesus time.

jews believe their messiah is still to come, they rejected jesus, muslims believe jesus is the messiah and he was the messiah for the jews too and we believe, jesus aint God or the begotten son of God but he is a servant of God like the prophets and messengers before him , God doesnt beget, begeting means sex or saired by God, God doesnt not beget, in the quran thats the biggest swear word u can give God, God doesnt have a begotten son.

he aint like a human. so in this jews and muslims are the same , God doesnt have a son, jews and muslims get circumsized, we eat halal/kosher

some things jews dont eat, but in the quran we are taught that some things the jews made haram or prohibited by themselves without the law of God, coz of their rabbis changing things to suit themselves etc this is allowed and this isnt, when they havent been authorised to by God.


so we call the original hebrews muslims, but generations passed geezer, jews had lost alot of their teachings, alot of stuff was written down, even in the bible it said about Gods words getting changed as in doctrines of men, kings changed things to suit themselves, holy men did , rabbis , historians.

the old testament aint in its original form , its a mixture of Gods word, prophets word, disiplces word, kings and historians of those times and history etc etc.

but islam is judaism for the universe, if u understand what i mean, its the same religion but universal and the quran is the word of God, not historians or prophets etc.

jews believe jesus wasnt the messiah, we believe he was and if u read the new testament its not jesus gospel its the gospel of 4 others, 2 of them werent even the disciples.

we muslims believe in the gospel of jesus, what he spoke was gospel, we reject the new testament but we do believe it has some words of God and jesus but as a whole its written by man and changed to suit.

st paul is the anti christ, he never knew jesus, he was in bed with the romans and changed it to idolatary to suit him and romans and brought in pagan teachings.


did u know jesus name isnt jesus, he was a hebrew, his name was easu or classical yeheshua , the romans latinized his name to jesus they added a j and a s, he was not called th christ, chris is a greek word, jesus wasnt greek, he was the messiah or the masaha or masi in arabic, the greek name for that word messiah as in annointed or appointed one is called christos , st paul loped off the os and named him christ

as in joseph , prophet joseph aint joseph in hebrew and arabic his name is yosef and jacob aint jacob his name was yacoub, and simon peter wasnt simon peter his name was shimon and cephas was added coz jesus called him the rock, and rock in greek is petrescu and in short peter, his name was shimon cephas etc etc

if u read the new testament all four gospel endings are different , have a read dont listen to me

and in the torah and also the jews say that while moses was alive peace be upon him , the torah came while he was alive and we muslims believe that, but the torah we have now aint the original torah

coz in the last book of the torah it says

i quote

prophet moses was 125 yrs old when he died and no one knew where they buried him

1. it aint from God the current torah, God knows where moses is buried
2. it aint moses, he didnt write his own death and where he isnt buried.
3. it aint joshua bin nun , he knew where moses was burried
4. so its historians who wrote it

u get what i mean


jews dont accept christ and mohammad peace be upon them both
christians believe jesus is God and he died for our sins, muslims and jews reject that
muslims believe in the messiah and he aint God , and believe in all prophets before prophet mohammad

so that is the religion thats overtaking them all in its purest form, but sects are in islam too and created by man , nothing to do with God


problem with the jews started only after israel was created and the zionist lobby did everything to suit themselves



my cousins the jews lived among us for 1400 yrs, sultan mehmet saved them when the christians were butchering them and brought them to turkey and muslim lands, saladdin saved them from the crusaders who would have surely wiped them off the face of the earth, even when saladdin was betrayed by a jewish king he still saved the jews.

the moors gave protection and cities to the jews in spain




edited , spelling mistakes

moses

geezer have a look here its a good sight its jews who came to islam
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/


u can see the differences, jesus never eat pig and st paul made it kosher for the christians, see what i mean mate, all to suit himself

in the new testament, jesus eyes are the colour of fire thats hazel and his skin colour was brass thats bronze same as arabs and original jews not european ones.

and he had wooly hair like an arab and jews u see in the middle east, u would notice the arab and jews hair are similar, asians like indian or pakistani muslims dont have hair like some of the arabs and jews, their curly wooly rough type not straight.



and christians made jesus look more like a german than a jew, blue eyes and blondish hair

Geezer

Thanks for that. Has cleared up alot of stuff I didn't know.

So the Quran is basically another version of the old testament in the bible?

Geezer

moses

yeah mate we believe in the original torah and psalms and the gospel of jesus himself and the quran is the last testament, when man had took the wrong path , God sent prophet muhammad as the last prophet to lead man back to the religion of God.


but as i said , muslims now practice nothing like the old days, then was pure islam, now people follow their imams or sect stuff.


i like listening to all imams and make my mind up as long as it goes with the quran i will follow it if it doesnt i wont.

adpd

Well said moses.

Leslie

I think Geezer's point about democracy in Iraq is a good one. Everyone is assuming that Iraq wants a democratic style of government when the reverse is probably true. I would not be surprised if they would prefer a strong leader who would gather the country together but not in the same style as Saddam Hussain. It seems to me that normal Arabian style government is not democratic at all. I also think it is presumptuous and wrong to try to force western style government on the Iraqis.

I also believe that all the trouble between the various islamic sects is basically a power struggle between leaders rather than religious differences.

Les

moses

cheers adp u added another letter on your name mate from the last time



u know leslie, chechen fighters are the most honourable when it comes to jihad, before the foreigners defiled their teachings as in the non chechens, chechens are the best when it comes to original chechen warfare, what u see now is arab style of fighting not chechen, chechens are influenced by foreign elements now, i have alot of respect for the chechens their cool

moses

for geezer have a read mate its a cool read




Actually, I was quoting Uriel's remark about the "silly old Khazar theory." I found it quite plausible, most Jews in Europe look absolutely nothing like Arabs. They resemble the people of the Caucasus (such as Georgians) much more closely in their physiognomy. The Sephardic Jews, in contrast, have a much more legitimate claim to Semitic heritage - they look like their Arab brethren.

------ i found this in here

quiet funny to read others comments too


http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39177c5e1bf3.htm



see what i mean, european jews have been mixing in with gentiles and married non jews , so the closest semites are arabs and shepardic jews , european jews lost their looks and skin colour as i said in the other thread

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0401/p01s01-wome.html



http://www.dangoor.com/73page25.html





Jews and Arabs United by Genes
taken from The Times 9 May 2000



Jews and Arabs are extremely closely related, a new genetic survey has shown.

Wherever in the world they now live, Jewish men carry the same Y chromosome as Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese.

"Jews and Arabs are all really children of Abraham and all have preserved their Middle Eastern genetic roots over 4,000 years," said one of the scientists involved. Harry Ostrer, director of the Human Genetics Programme at New York University School of Medicine. The team analysed regions of the Y chromosome in 1,371 men from 29 populations worldwide. The Y chromosome passes largely unchanged down the male line.

The results, published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, show that the difference between Jewish and Arab populations is extremely small, considerably smaller than that between North and South African populations, for example. The study confirms that both Arabs and Jews owe their genes to a common ancestor population that predated the Jewish religion.

A second conclusion is that the Jews have maintained their genetic heritage to a remarkable degree, given the Jewish diaspora and the long isolation of small Jewish populations in many places.

"Because Jewish religious affiliation is assigned maternally, our study afforded the opportunity to assess the contribution of non-Jewish men to present-day Jewish genetic diversity," said Michael Hammer, the study leader. "It was surprising to see how significant the Middle Eastern genetic signal was in Jewish men from different communities in the diaspora," he said.

The latest human chromosome to be deciphered in full suggests that human beings may have many fewer genes than previously supposed. Chromosome 21 contains only 225 active genes. The finding suggests that the entire complement of human genes may total nearer 40,000 rather than the previous estimates of between 70,000 and 140,000.

Huge areas consist of apparently worthless DNA. In one stretch of seven million base pairs (the letters of the genetic alphabet), a stretch longer than the entire genome of E.coli, there is only a single gene. The full sequence of Chromosome 21 is published online today by Nature.

Scribe: It is now clear that the Arab is our brother, and we have no other.

Buckrogers

What current or past Dictatorship has every worked?

The current ones are generally mad in the head, lapping up a life of luxury while their people are suffering or starving....??

moses

well said buck , dictators hoard the wealth for themselves but do nothing for the people. a lil like the current goverments,
they spend billions and millions on weaponry and other garbage while their people suffer