moses

people using religion for their own benefit


here u will read a story about a political party who says whoever votes for them will be promised heaven, we first heard this in israel about the religious party and now in a muslim country malaysia

only God can send people to heaven, this party sounds like the pope, its a lil fecked up , no one has the right or power to send anyone to heaven, its actually blaspheming


http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...7E2C5C987E.htm


u can only get to heaven with your own actions, only God knows who will or who doesnt

athiests need not to reply except for akshay

Petem95

Well I think I will anyway.

There is no god moses. In this country we base things on science and fact, not the beliefs of a backwards culture. Religion is an out-of-date way of thinking, and its undisputedly the main cause of problems throughout the world today. Thats why the world is "fecked up".

Alan C

Petem. On the head mate.

I cannot believe that in the 21st Century, people base their lives (and deaths) on an unproven set of stories supposedly written just over 2000 years ago.

Where is the the protection of God to the suffering millions in Ehtiopia and other starving parts of the world? Were is the God of those people murdered by a member of the same faith? Why didn't he stop it? (don't bother answering, becuase it will be unproven and your version)

How can people still waste their time and energy praying to some entity whose subjects and followers have done more harm to this world than anything else in history. Religion has killed more people than any plague, bomb or war..

'God' is as baseless a fact than any Loch Ness Monster, Abominabal Snowman or visits from space. In actual fact. There are more positive sightings of aliens than any religious visitation... and yet.. people still believe and die for this cause..

I simply cannot understand the need to base my life on a set of scriptures that have been translated more times than I care to mention and 'amended' to suit the person reading it throughout the ages...these amendments still continue to suit...

A simple disagreement in these scriptures led to the formation of the Sunni and Shia religions.. there are thousands of other such disgreements with far worse consequences.. it breaks my heart to think that one person would want to kill another.. becuase he simply doesn't have the same religious view..

How unbelievably hypocritical and un-godlike..

moses

here goes alan again, i already gave u an answer in the other post a few days ago, u have no leg to stand on so wont bother replying to your athiesm here


your atheist hero stalin, polpot and so many others, butchered people too , veru nice folk , where were the athiests then to save the innocents and where were u guys when u guys made the poor russians suffer the famine and hunger

talk about how many times your theories have changed coz u guys land flat faced on your own ****ty theories


like i said if your children become rapists or killers, should we blame u alan or should we come and slaughter u or find u , or if your kids become drug dealers, what can u do to stop them, its free will aint it as i said earlier , one of the greatest gift from God

well alan ,nothing happens by chance, when u ****, does it happen by chance , see how easy i make it for u , u eat , u drink then u digest , **** and pee hahaha, u need to make an effort dont u , when u are hungry does it happen by chance that food comes from nowwhere and your tummy gets filled up.

when u need to make luv to your lady, does it happen by chance that she **** and gets pleasure or do u need to make an effort, does your bills get paid themselves or do u need to make an effort to pay it

well someone made an effort to make this world , it didnt just come from nowhere

so u wont mind if u call u a son of a monkey, coz u believe u r from a monkey

so alan hows monkey magic haha

moses

lol u make me laugh, this tells u your knowledge about the scriptures


---------------A simple disagreement in these scriptures led to the formation of the Sunni and Shia religions.. there are thousands of other such disgreements with far worse consequences.. it breaks my heart to think that one person would want to kill another.. becuase he simply doesn't have the same religious view
---------


what a load of b-o-l-l-o-c-k-s

its nothing to do with scriptures , go and read the story nothing to do with disagreement about the scripture, u muppet




and u only come here to make trouble, why dont u go somewhere else

moses

by the way alan

majority of the people who commit crimes and murder in this world, dont really believe in a god, majority of the rapists , murdereres, drug dealers arent church, temple or mosque goers



what do u think of that

Katana

In Malaysia, the poorest state just happens to be the ones run by the extremist group PAS. Coincidence? Religion has no place in the goverment. Especially wheb they have connections to Al Qaeda. A lot of their party members have been detained by the ISA but a lot of countries have bitched about it saying its undemocratic.

yoza

Sorry but me too,
Noi religious extremists, no extremist action.

Tell people when they are dead, they are dead, stop the lies.....

Would try and explkain myself but Im pished...........again sorryt

Religious liars, false promises, preying on the weak to do their dirty work..

****houdses, get the main men to do it themselves.

I will edit tomorrow!

moses

yoza i agree, i was looking for a decent post yours and kats is decent, some people just hijack a good thread and drag it down


here i was critizing my fellow muslims of their fecked up **** and others start their crap about something else


sad thing is these so called religious people pray on weak minds , and garbage like u are promised heaven etc etc for their own political gain

i was reading about the hamas and islamic jihad leaders, i luv my palestinian bros and sisters as u know, u know sheikh ahmad yassin has children and grandchildren, not a single one has he sent as a suicide bomber or a martyr, ahmand rantinnsi , same again, not a single child has he sent , he has a few older children and so does yassin, marwan barghouti , when he was jailed he told his wife to make sure, none of his kids go to jihad, some were sent to jordan, yassins kids live in other parts over the arab lands, rantinnsi himself his kids studied in the usa


its very easy to send other peoples blood, their beloved kids to get killed , very hard indeed to send your own, oh u *******s, may Gods curse be on u

look at ******* sharon and netanyahu, sharon never sent his kids to war , netanyahu never sent his boy to the frontline or checkpoints, his own nephew was punished coz he didnt join the army coz he said they oppressed people so he wont join but as i said netanyahu didnt send his child to the frontline


hypocritical *******s , blood is cheap when it aint your own , i was reading michael moores letter after the iraq war and afghan war, he wrote, non of the congressmen and people working in the whitehouse sent their kids to war , except for one congressman

does that not tell u anything

sti555

religion and the effects off cause more suffering for mankind than anything else..

over the years many innicent people of lost a great deal for false beliefs and almost peer pressure.. It's time as a race we stop looking into the past and continue to base our lifes on scientific facts not old wives tales & fiction from many many eons ago..

I feel without the stess and pressure of religion people will have at least one thing less to disagree on and fight... it's time to let go of tradition and try something else, religion is restrictive and stops people being equal, holy war etc, wtf....

Sorry but time to move on and forward..

Alan C

Moses, dear o dear.

You fall prey to the same biased, racist and short sighted views you purport to hate.

Because I don't beleive in God, this automatically places Stalin and Pol Pot as my heroes? And that I support everything they said or did?

Therefore, you are a muslim, fanatical muslims killed many people in the twin towers. So using your flawed and twisted logic, this means they too are your heroes?

You haven't answered any of my questions about God not being here to help his followers (whatever the're religion). You simply called it Boll*** and moved on to why Stalin and Pol Pot were heros of mine..

I don't force my beliefs down anyones throat. My lack of belief in God frees my mind to question and look for alternative answers.

I state that I don't understand religion and ask you to explain why your God allows muslims to murder fellow muslims? You didn't.. or can't. (this question isn't targetted at Islam, it can be used on ANY religion)

It is scientific conjecture backed up by many sound but differing theories that the Universe was created from matter and that our world formed over Billions of years from this matter. The chance was in the laws of physics and nature.

Your world revolves around a book that says it was created by some being and formed at his will. There are many many other religions that argue that their version is correct, and yours is wrong. To what solid provable law does this come from?

Both theories are unprovable at this stage, but my mind is open, is yours?
I come from a monkey? Another fine intelligent statement, that proves so much about you. Also, a statement to which my Mother and Father will be pleased, as they both like David Attenborough.

I come here to debate, so don't bother answering this either...

ps

moses

i talk about the twin towers, was mohammad atta the mastermind really a believe of God or was he brainwashed, they say a week before he spent a few days with a *****, i dont think thats godly.

and the majority of the terrorists in the plane didnt know of the operation till they were facing the towers, so the white house said too.


their not my hero's u talk about religious people causing the most problems, thats alot of b-o-l-l-o-c-k-s like i said, majority of the crimes caused in the world r from non believing non church, mosque or temple going people.


yeah but defend stalin, he didnt believe in God if u can attack people who believe in religion doing bad stuff, their are so many athiests doing it, noriega was a atheist too, wasnt mobutu too and how many more.


the problem lies with u and athiests like u, u hardly hear of religious people attacking or insulting athiests but u do always see athiests attacking religious people

and no i answered your question, where will u be and what will u do, once your creation with the grace of God as in your children go and kill someone or do something, will u bend their necks to obey u when they are small, lock them in or handcuff them in the house after school , or would u give them a rule to abide by and try your best to tell them to follow the straight path and u give them the free will

well im making it simple for u, thats what God has given us, he is our creator and man has been put in this world to help his fellow human being, thats the miracle of God , he has given us all things to help others, we didnt create it, he gave it to us to help and make this world better


well read the quran, their is nothing like unto it, its the book of signs, its abolished all the crap scientists used to believe in and theirs more to come sunshine


my mind is open, after reading the quran u just laugh at b-o-l-l-o-c-k-s like the darwins racist theory whom majority of the african blacks suffered coz of his ****

and like i said shia and sunni dont differ coz of the scriptures, it was a power struggle after the prophet peace be upon him

as u read in the last paragraph on the one u posted

in islam their isnt a thing u just pass on to a cousin or a brother, its to be passed onto someone who is fit to rule at the time, that was the real democracy

ali was a great man and its fecked up of what happened after abu bakr and umar, it all went haywire, some people wanted power for themselves instead of serving the people they wanted to serve themselves, osman and ali were very good people but ali didnt like what osman was doing, he passed on the ruling positions to his kin when he should have chosen the righteous and fit to do the job people

ali was a humble person, never chased wealth, power and position, he was awesome, he wasnt a shia he was a muslim, their was no such thing as shia and sunni at the time

his followers created shia ali, that means the party of ali and ali didnt follow what the shia's are doing now, that was all created during the 12 shia imams

if u know what i mean

moses

alan u said u have an open mind

i trust u , so pls do read these books if u can, its available for free on the net u can read it

http://www.harunyahya.com/create01.php



http://www.harunyahya.com/signs_design_01.php



http://www.harunyahya.com/creation.php



http://www.harunyahya.com/understandingintro.php



http://www.harunyahya.com/refuted1.php




http://www.harunyahya.com/evolution_specialpreface.php



http://www.harunyahya.com/notbychance01.php




i hope u read it, this man has never lost a debate against evolutionists, darwinists



here is the full book list


http://www.harunyahya.com/m_books.php

your life will never be the same

moses

this is a good site i hope u look at it
http://www.darwinism-watch.com/

Geezer

Has never lost, or never admitted to losing? Neither side can win the debate, because you cannot prove non-existence, peoples blind faith is difficult (or impossible) to overcome.

People always quote Dawrinism in these matters because it does leave some unasnwered question, it's an easy target.

They never want to discuss the age of the universe, or the earth, or all the animals that came before man etc.

This subject has already been done to death on these boards, and the two sides are never going to agree or prove each other wrong, so let's keep on topic.

Geezer

moses

geezer lol he is famous, he has truly never lost



and i agree lets stay on topic, its a never ending debate


im too sexy to be from a monkey

Katana

Thats the thing about faith. You can't prove or disprove the existance of a supreme being scientifically. I've seen this argument go on for years.

moses

of course u can . easy peezy, nothinghappens by chance


nothing just comes from nowhere every creature has a beautiful design, the best artist in the world made it we call him God


by the way alan u are nearly a muslim,ask katana

coz God luvs a person more who questions

and in order to be a muslim their is a phrase u need to believe in

its called the shahada, just like the jews have their shama we have our shahada

it starts the athiest way

their is no God , but Allah( the one God, the unseen, the one who doesnt take a break, no sundays off, who doesnt eat or ****e, , who is unsees, nothing u can imagine is like unto him.


no money Gods
no animal Gods
no sleeping God
no helpless God , who didnt forgive adam and then had to come down to be sacrificed for man, well did God not know he will have to be born from a woman covered with blood, he should have forgiven adam , he would have saved himself from the crucifix

well we dont believe the above, jesus was the messiah he wasnt God


so alan u are nearly their, well done

Dracoro

Anyway, even if you get sent to hell, you'll be OK because god is omnipresent and can look after you right????

Katana

Or you could do it the other way and be an "Ahli Kitab" (member of the book) by being a Jew or Christian which under a technicality means that you're more or less a moslem. Its the same teachings anyway according to my dad having been a Catholic before.

moses

of course bros, christians and jews will go to heaven but u know the condition


christians have to be believe, God is one, he is not one of a trinity, thats idolatary and they have to believe jesus was the messiah and not God and God doesnt beget and jesus isnt dead he is alive and he wasnt cruficied, those guys thought they crucified him but they didnt


God forgives many a sin but the only sin he doesnt forgive unless u repent and change your ways is idolatory or associating anyone with God

dosenöffner

They haven't built a place that will take me yet. Hell won't have me. They're afraid I'd take over.

Katana

Judging the way the world is at the moment, I doubt any of us are going to heaven without first going to hell. I for one have drunk and fornicated without regards to the other party. Repenting will only get you so far. Maybe karma is trully a bitch and thats why all these horrible things are happening to me. Hehe I better not turn this into a theology thread as I'm no expert in it.

moses

16. O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,-

17. Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light,- guideth them to a path that is straight.

18. In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."

19. (Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of Allah, and his beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)"

20. O People of the Book! Now hath come unto you, making (things) clear unto you, Our Messenger, after the break in (the series of) our apostles, lest ye should say: "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner (from evil)": But now hath come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner (from evil). And Allah hath power over all things.

21. Remember Moses said to his people: "O my people! Call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you, when He produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave you what He had not given to any other among the peoples.

22. "O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin."

23. They said: "O Moses! In this land are a people of exceeding strength: Never shall we enter it until they leave it: if (once) they leave, then shall we enter."

24. (But) among (their) Allah.fearing men were two on whom Allah had bestowed His grace: They said: "Assault them at the (proper) Gate: when once ye are in, victory will be yours; But on Allah put your trust if ye have faith."

25. They said: "O Moses! while they remain there, never shall we be able to enter, to the end of time. Go thou, and thy Lord, and fight ye two, while we sit here (and watch)."

26. He said: "O my Lord! I have power only over myself and my brother: so separate us from this rebellious people!"

27. Allah said: "Therefore will the land be out of their reach for forty years: In distraction will they wander through the land: But sorrow thou not over these rebellious people.

-----------------------


44. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

45. We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

--------------------------


61. When they come to thee, they say: "We believe": but in fact they enter with a mind against Faith, and they go out with the same but Allah knoweth fully all that they hide.

62. Many of them dost thou see, racing each other in sin and rancour, and their eating of things forbidden. Evil indeed are the things that they do.

63. Why do not the rabbis and the doctors of Law forbid them from their (habit of) uttering sinful words and eating things forbidden? Evil indeed are their works.

64. The Jews say: "(Allah)'s hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.

65. If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss.

66. If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.

------------------------------

69. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

70. We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them apostles, every time, there came to them an apostle with what they themselves desired not - some (of these) they called impostors, and some they (go so far as to) slay.

71. They thought there would be no trial (or punishment); so they became blind and deaf; yet Allah (in mercy) turned to them; yet again many of them became blind and deaf. But Allah sees well all that they do.

72. They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

74. Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.

75. Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

76. Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things."

77. Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way.

78. Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.

79. Nor did they (usually) forbid one another the iniquities which they committed: evil indeed were the deeds which they did.

80. Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers. Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah.s wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide.

---------------



see geezer as i told u before

jews, christians and muslims are the same people, our religion was the religion of the prophets and messengers before us, we call that submission to the one God as in islam

Katana

Lol. We could always choose not to move on and haunt a castle or something.

moses

this is the islamic version of the last supper

---------------------110. Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

111. Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear Allah, if ye have faith."

112. "And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger. they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims'".

113. They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle."

114. Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)."

115. Allah said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples."

----------------------------------------------




this is jesus a witness against the christians who worshipped him , this is on judgement day, God asks him in front of the christians


quote

116. And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

118. "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."

119. Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah. That is the great salvation, (the fulfilment of all desires).

120. To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who hath power over all things.

akshay67

The action I am taking to get to heaven is building a very long ladder

On a serious note, I am working on the equations of life at the moment. If we have found the maths that governs the trails of matter in the universe, then why can't there be equations that govern the trails of life (which one can argue is a superset of matter anyway)?

And moses, why do people who drive Evos think they are god??

moses

lol akshay me bros, big hugs, akshay is some man, luv u bros



lol no way, im the servant of God and i dont think im God and i do have an evo

redwrx

An interesting 'lunchtime' read... and so the debate goes on..!!

This could end up being the longest thread ever on scoobynet.

Leslie

As yet, no one can prove or disprove the existence of an omnipotent being, known as God or prove that the many scientific theories are true fact. It is also a dangerous and elitist assumption to state that we are all so much cleverer than our predecessors that we know it all.

There is no reason why Darwin's theories can't be accepted by religious societies and they certainly do not disprove God's existence.

It is sensible to remember what the word "theory" means in this context as well.

Religious teachings generally say that your life in the next existence depends on how you lived in this one. Basically you have to earn the right to join the rest in Heaven rather than Hell. It was not promised that Life would be a "Breeze" and that is why things can get so difficult. Some are apparently more fortunate in life but not necessarily more happy of course. Religious teachings state therefore that Life and how you behave is a test of your character.

The evil actions that take place in the name of religion are not advocated by the religion but are initiated by religious leaders who do not deserve such a position but have inveigled themselves into a position of power so that they can take advantage of impressionable people. All these actions are part of a power struggle and not tied in with the teachings of that religion, just the selfish wishes of those leaders concerned. It is not the fault of the religion.

It is of course much easier to say that only science is the answer to to questions of Life. It requires no kind of commitment as a religious way of life would. Only too easy to blame the World's troubles on religion. It is a very hackneyed argument and is most unfair on basic religious beliefs. The vast majority of those who follow religious teachings lead good and unselfish lives and there is nothing weak or wrong with that.

Although I lean towards Agnosticism at present, I will still defend the right of people to believe in God and to follow whatever religion they think is best without having to endure specious and ignorant insults from those who do not understand their beliefs.

Les