Whats the difference between knock Link and Lambda link?
12 July 2002, 03:55 PM
#1
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Ok,
I know exactly what they do, but surely they effectively do the same thing. One shows the symptom and the other shows the cause?
The lambda ling shows you if you are running rich / lean which would cause det (if lean) the knock shows if your engine is detting, which is a symptom of running lean.
If thats wrong can someone tell me?! And if its right surely its better to go for the easier one to fit - knock Link?
Confused...
MB
I know exactly what they do, but surely they effectively do the same thing. One shows the symptom and the other shows the cause?
The lambda ling shows you if you are running rich / lean which would cause det (if lean) the knock shows if your engine is detting, which is a symptom of running lean.
If thats wrong can someone tell me?! And if its right surely its better to go for the easier one to fit - knock Link?
Confused...
MB
12 July 2002, 04:28 PM
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Det is caused by running lean. But det is not ONLY caused by running lean.
Other det inducing conditions include:
High intake temps
Poor fuel
Too advanced timing
Too much boost (for the fueling and timing)
Too hot plugs
Hot spots in combustions chamber
...
Other det inducing conditions include:
High intake temps
Poor fuel
Too advanced timing
Too much boost (for the fueling and timing)
Too hot plugs
Hot spots in combustions chamber
...
12 July 2002, 04:29 PM
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Did you nick that off the BR website?! 
I am leaning towards the knock job, as you point out, it covers a lot of other problems...
MB
I am leaning towards the knock job, as you point out, it covers a lot of other problems...
MB
12 July 2002, 04:40 PM
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BR website?
Nick'ed that off the top of my head, cos I've been watching my occassional det problems very closely. Think it was a case of slightly too high a boost spike given the fuel and ambient temps.
Nick'ed that off the top of my head, cos I've been watching my occassional det problems very closely. Think it was a case of slightly too high a boost spike given the fuel and ambient temps.
12 July 2002, 05:19 PM
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John,
Just a quick note about the ECU and sensor... I've seen / heard about faults whereby the engine was running as clean as a whistle but timing was being pulled out due to the knock sensor incorrectly outputting a higher signal than it should.... so just because you can see the ECU pull timing on DeltaDash, doesn't mean that there is actually a reason for pulling the timing out. The only way of knowing, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is using a cylinder pressure sensor. The next best thing is a set of det cans.
Cheers,
Pat.
Just a quick note about the ECU and sensor... I've seen / heard about faults whereby the engine was running as clean as a whistle but timing was being pulled out due to the knock sensor incorrectly outputting a higher signal than it should.... so just because you can see the ECU pull timing on DeltaDash, doesn't mean that there is actually a reason for pulling the timing out. The only way of knowing, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is using a cylinder pressure sensor. The next best thing is a set of det cans.
Cheers,
Pat.
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12 July 2002, 05:43 PM
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Pat - I hear what you are saying - it seems to be that finding the "gold standard" for knock detection in a readily accessible/cheap setup is impossible since although I have a stethoscope, the patients don't like it if it is covered in oil 
I don't think a Knocklink or the JECS is the gold standard by any means.
Chiark - 800x600 really to see everything properly.
I don't think a Knocklink or the JECS is the gold standard by any means.Chiark - 800x600 really to see everything properly.
12 July 2002, 10:51 PM
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Thanks all,
Going to give it a go I think. So its not an accelerometer then? Its purely looking at noise... If it doesn't work, ill flog it in sales section
MB
Going to give it a go I think. So its not an accelerometer then? Its purely looking at noise... If it doesn't work, ill flog it in sales section
MB
13 July 2002, 03:17 PM
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I had been wondering if its caused by slightly too high boost, 98RON fuel or high ambient temps. Or possibly a combination of all 3.
I tried NF oct booster, but still managed to induce some mild det. Audible with 2 sudden flashing green LEDs.
I also got some det at intake temp of 45degC or so (I have a temp gauge hooked up to monitor the intercooler internal temp). Not audible under those conditions, but all 5 LED's lit up!
So I tried meddling with the restrictor sizes. Spike down from 1.2bar to about 1.05. KL's been quiet since then (approx 10 days now). I don't mind a tad less power for increased safety, car's still plenty fast for me anyway. I'd rather run max advance at lower boost, than less advance at higher boost. ie no knock correction.
MY01 JDM STI RA, 26000kms.
[Edited by RT - 7/13/2002 3:18:28 PM]
I tried NF oct booster, but still managed to induce some mild det. Audible with 2 sudden flashing green LEDs.
I also got some det at intake temp of 45degC or so (I have a temp gauge hooked up to monitor the intercooler internal temp). Not audible under those conditions, but all 5 LED's lit up!
So I tried meddling with the restrictor sizes. Spike down from 1.2bar to about 1.05. KL's been quiet since then (approx 10 days now). I don't mind a tad less power for increased safety, car's still plenty fast for me anyway. I'd rather run max advance at lower boost, than less advance at higher boost. ie no knock correction.
MY01 JDM STI RA, 26000kms.
[Edited by RT - 7/13/2002 3:18:28 PM]
13 July 2002, 05:49 PM
#15
Hey John just because you drive around with a laptop balanced on the dash doen't mean everyone is so daft. (if i could remember smilies there would be a big smiling one here)
Since the intention should be to keep your eyes on the road the knocklink is there to provide a clear visual warning that SOMETHING is happening unusual in the engine, its clear and obvious, by the time you looked across at your laptop engine could be dead, its not intended to be a definitive measurment of retard. Many cars using jecs actually retard for no reason at all due to various circumstances. The knocklink should be installed with its own separate sensor for that and the fact that piggybacking the factory sensor can cause the ecu to mis-read it. When set to full sensitivity then it will show engine noise depnding on the individual engine, the level should be verified using cans, anything different can then be considered suspicious.
The major issue with any car is when it gets caught out by bad fuel, So the time when you need to watch it the closest is just after you fill up, I know of many (including myself) who have filled up with so called "good fuel" only to find that it is not ... no names mentioned but one petrol company is far worse than all the others in my personal experience.
cheers
Since the intention should be to keep your eyes on the road the knocklink is there to provide a clear visual warning that SOMETHING is happening unusual in the engine, its clear and obvious, by the time you looked across at your laptop engine could be dead, its not intended to be a definitive measurment of retard. Many cars using jecs actually retard for no reason at all due to various circumstances. The knocklink should be installed with its own separate sensor for that and the fact that piggybacking the factory sensor can cause the ecu to mis-read it. When set to full sensitivity then it will show engine noise depnding on the individual engine, the level should be verified using cans, anything different can then be considered suspicious.
The major issue with any car is when it gets caught out by bad fuel, So the time when you need to watch it the closest is just after you fill up, I know of many (including myself) who have filled up with so called "good fuel" only to find that it is not ... no names mentioned but one petrol company is far worse than all the others in my personal experience.
cheers
13 July 2002, 06:07 PM
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This may interest you. When Mervyn from Ecutek came out to Greece and we went for a couple of runs with Delta Dash in my car, we did a run at 17 psi and then to see some changes and some knock correction we cranked the boost up to 20/21 psi. On flooring it with the 20psi, my Knocklink lit up like a Christmas tree for the first time ever. It has the seperate bosch sensor mounted on the block under the intercooler. I've never run that high boost before and we only tried it that once just to see. It was quite a warm day and Delta Dash showed knock correction of only -3 degrees. I immediately backed off and lowered the boost. I tend to trust the Knocklink cos it had never lit up before. We had changed something, ie the boost, (bit too much boost), and it did light up. Perhaps it wasn't too dangerous cos there was only -3 degrees knock correction, but better to be safe than sorry.
Cheers,
Wrexy.
Cheers,
Wrexy.
14 July 2002, 04:52 PM
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Thanks Bob. I take it that you mean that transient det is something that happens before the ECU has time to correct and that therefore it is not necessarily dangerous for the engine as long as correction does take place?
Cheers,
Wrexy.
Cheers,
Wrexy.
14 July 2002, 05:18 PM
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WREXY, would you know how much timing advance was run at 20psi (when you got the -3deg knock correction)?
I find the "transient det" thing to be true too. Often (maybe 2 in 5 times) when I hit 1.2+bar, I get a sudden 2 greens which disappear after one or 2 flashes. I suspect the timing is a tad too advanced, and the ECU listens for det before correcting - hence the "transient det".
Increased my restrictor size to 1.1mm, max boost spike is now approx 1.05-1.1bar in the first 4 gears = Quiet KL!
JDM MY01 STI RA 26000km
I find the "transient det" thing to be true too. Often (maybe 2 in 5 times) when I hit 1.2+bar, I get a sudden 2 greens which disappear after one or 2 flashes. I suspect the timing is a tad too advanced, and the ECU listens for det before correcting - hence the "transient det".
Increased my restrictor size to 1.1mm, max boost spike is now approx 1.05-1.1bar in the first 4 gears = Quiet KL!
JDM MY01 STI RA 26000km
14 July 2002, 06:24 PM
#22
Wrexy. as long as its understoood on a particular car then its not dangerous but, if it was a big enough event then it could deystroy an engine. I don't concern myself if it happens under consistent circumstances, would always eliminate on a customer car though (those that are the exception know who you are)
bob
bob
14 July 2002, 08:13 PM
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Good reading chaps,
I'm going to order one on Monday. I am heavily involved in vibration monitoring of rotating machinery, so quite obsessed with protection / monitoring devices! Plus its another toy to play with, albeit an ugly one!
Can anyone advise where they have fitted the sensor? Over cylinder number 3 seems like a good start
RT - How do you afford to run that beast in Sing?! Sounds like a special one being an RA?
MB
I'm going to order one on Monday. I am heavily involved in vibration monitoring of rotating machinery, so quite obsessed with protection / monitoring devices! Plus its another toy to play with, albeit an ugly one!
Can anyone advise where they have fitted the sensor? Over cylinder number 3 seems like a good start
RT - How do you afford to run that beast in Sing?! Sounds like a special one being an RA?
MB
14 July 2002, 09:58 PM
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I found that these instructions on I club from Jan Shim, also a Scoobynet member were very good. It includes all the info you need plus a pic. This is what I followed for mine. Oh, the bolt in the pic is under the intercooler on the block.
http://i-club.com/forums/showthread....threadid=72454
Cheers,
Wrexy.
[Edited by WREXY - 7/14/2002 9:59:42 PM]
http://i-club.com/forums/showthread....threadid=72454
Cheers,
Wrexy.
[Edited by WREXY - 7/14/2002 9:59:42 PM]
15 July 2002, 06:40 AM
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I've actually found under the intercooler to be 'quieter' than on the RHS intercooler mounting bracket (as per BRD's recomendation). I've just moved mine back and am now getting one or two greens at high revs again - it's not knock, just noise, but I prefer to see something
Richard
Richard
15 July 2002, 12:24 PM
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Ok - where can I get one cheap?
Scoobymania's one is not an actual Link product and BR Developments is about £160 delivered.
Or do I just pay it!
MB
Scoobymania's one is not an actual Link product and BR Developments is about £160 delivered.
Or do I just pay it!
MB
15 July 2002, 02:56 PM
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MB:
Well, I get by by not eating very much... haha!
Seriously, its not THAT bad. The high prices keep the traffic flowing, which is kinda the point, right?
It's a JDM STI RA, MY01. It was registered here when it was first released in late 2000, before Singapore adopted the EURO3 emissions rules. Now, only the Euro STI7's can be imported. I believe that there're only 8 RA's running around the island, which makes it quite exclusive.
[Edited by RT - 7/15/2002 2:58:58 PM]
Well, I get by by not eating very much... haha!
Seriously, its not THAT bad. The high prices keep the traffic flowing, which is kinda the point, right?
It's a JDM STI RA, MY01. It was registered here when it was first released in late 2000, before Singapore adopted the EURO3 emissions rules. Now, only the Euro STI7's can be imported. I believe that there're only 8 RA's running around the island, which makes it quite exclusive.
[Edited by RT - 7/15/2002 2:58:58 PM]
15 July 2002, 11:49 PM
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BTW..if anyone cares...
If you (yes YOU) are going to buy a Lambda link.....then if you have ANY electronics skill at all, you can make up a simple voltmeter to measure the voltage coming from your lambda sensor, and it does the same job.
Happy happy joy.
Save your pennies. Go to maplin.
If you (yes YOU) are going to buy a Lambda link.....then if you have ANY electronics skill at all, you can make up a simple voltmeter to measure the voltage coming from your lambda sensor, and it does the same job.
Happy happy joy.
Save your pennies. Go to maplin.
