Otis

Mmmmm...this is a strange one.

I have an MY00 with 12k on the clock which has developed, dare I say it, an engine knock. I have experienced at first hand the piston slap problem but this is different. The facts of this curious case are:-

- Occurs when rolling to a halt, especially after reversing, just as the revs drop down to tick over. The tick over tends to 'hang' at 1000rpm for about 2-3 seconds and the engine will then subsequently knock as the revs drop down to normal, probably 5 knocks reducing in volume.
- No knock or slap when cold.
- Can also be stimulated by turning the wheel slightly when stationary, the engine note varies as the power steering does its thing and then the knock will come on again as the engine settles.
- Cannot be stimulated by applying heavy load such as holding on the handbrake, but it will as the engine settles back down immediately afterwards.
- On normal idle there is a constant faint 'top end' knock/rattle all the time, sounds too heavy for tappets but too light for anything like piston slap. Almost like there is a couple of marbles rrattling around. Maybe connected I don't know.
- Does not do it all the time but is getting more frequent.

What do you think? Any spanner masters out there (John Felstead and co?) with any clues. It's almost as if it's a timing or oil circulation issue. I once had a Mark 1 Cavalier with a poorly camshaft and it is quite similar to that.

I have spoken to the dealer who have been fine and said to monitor it until the next service (3k miles) and then they will call in IM to have a look while it's in, suggested I should be there aswell.

Hope someone can help. As you can imagine there is nothing quite like a problem like this for knocking you back on the enthusiasm/enjoyment stakes.

Otis.
(A bit worried if he was honest)

phill .m.

Hi Otis,

If you want to borrow a Fiat Panda for a while let me know.

Seriously though, this sounds like the problem Phil and Sarah have with theirs. They've had a new block, piston etc and it's no better. Could be noisy injectors! Or like you say oil circulation. Hope you find a quick cure.

Phill

Otis

Hello Phil,

Just spoken to Sarah and the symptoms are IDENTICAL. They have had a short motor as you say with no improvement. IM are now looking at the cam shaft and water pump as possible causes.

SO EVERYONE, WE NOW HAVE 2 MY00's WITH THIS VERY SAME PROBLEM. WHAT'S THE STORY?


Otis.



[This message has been edited by Otis (edited 10-07-2000).]

Matt Oz

Hi Phil,

I had a knocking noise on my 1994 Uk Turbo, and it seemed to go away after a long ( read longer than 2 hours!) drive! It would often not be ther on start up, but could manifest itself after several minutes idling.

It was a knocking noise that sounded "cammy", but was a sort of "ker-chunk, ker-chunk" noise. It never had any ill-effect on the car, and even sfter 111,000 miles, it never smoked or got any worse. My Type-R doesn't make this noise, but I know of a couple of other Turbos that do. It was described by one garage as "character".

Still doesn't make you feel any better though, does it!

Matt

Otis

Just had the cam belt tensioner changed under warranty and made no difference.

Any more ideas on this one that I can put before IM? I have found the easiest way to bring it on is to press the brake while stationary and as the engine takes the strain by increasing the revs slightly it omits a rythmic rattly knock, not loud but certainly noticeable.

Any ideas??


Otis.

MTR

MTR

[This message has been edited by MTR (edited 17 September 2000).]

johnfelstead

Hmmmmm, strange one.

The crank pulley being loose is a possibility, but you say that friends have had a new short engine and the prob is still the same, i cant see them not noticing the loose pulley when they stripped the engine, or not tightening it up again on rebuild.

Still worth checking though but i doubt it.

If you had a new timing belt tensioner then its unlikely to be on the cam belt area.

Very hard to say anything constructive without hearing it.

Is the hesitation at 1000rpm a longer pause than normal?? If it is, maybe the idle control valve is sticking and the noise is the valve sticking and pulsing???

try and give an indication of wether the iddle seems normal and also the loadness of the noise.

Otis

The hesitation at 1000rpm can best be described as the engine racing slightly before it settles back down to tick over. The noise does seem to be front of engine and can often be more prominent if the car is not level. The car in Hull that has had the short motor can be made worse by jacking one corner of the car up. IM say they have had a number of reports on this one now but as yet have no real clue as to the problem. Tne engine itself is a peach. Loosening up nicely and pulling superbly, and delivering over 26mpg since moving to SUL!!!!!!


Otis.

johnfelstead

well, if it changes as the chasis is distorted then it is a clearance thing or some pipes like the power steering pipes being slightly distorted as the engine rocks on its mountings.

There have also been cases in the past on french cars where the pipes used in the power steering for the fluid were very thin and the noise from the air in the system made the cars imposible to live with, a redesign of the pipes was the only fix.

I recon its brackets/pipes flexing, is that plausible based on the noise you are hearing?

Otis

Hello John,

No is the answer. If anything there are 2 noises. The first is from the nearside side of the block in region of the head of the piston. This is clearly audible inside and outside on tick over.

The second noise is the one that prompted this thread. This seems to be low down in the crank area of the engine at the front. Difficult to hear outside but clear inside. Does not seem to be coming from immediately behind the bulkhead but more forward. The timing belt area did seem to be the answer for me. I asked them did they check the pulleys and they said they will have done. Can't help feeling it's still this though.

IM think the two are related but I'm not so sure. If you're going on Northern Meet 4 I can do you a demo? Anyone else who knows a bit is more than welcome to have a listen aswell.


Otis.

Otis

Another thing John,

Not being an engine wiz' myself, what about engine timing? Faulty ECU, knock sensor, anything like that?


Otis.

johnfelstead

why dont you record it and email me

Havent got a clue without hearing it now???

pdonica

I had that same noise and all it is, is the SIREN part of the alarm. All you do is relocate it to a spot that dosent shake as much.

Hope this helped!
Paul

Otis

Hello pdonica,

I'm afraid it ain't that. It's coming from inside the block for sure. Worth a shot though!

Cheers,


Otis.
Car going back next week for strip down investigation by IM.

crusher

Otis,I've not heard the noise on a Scooby,but similar noises on other cars caused by "cam followers" which were worn/undersize....this usually means that the car concerned was ohv not ohc,but it could still be some of the cam gear rattling......as mentioned earlier with the crank pulley,it could be any cam pulley or even something like an alternator bearing....I've had one of those go and boy does it rattle!
As a short engine hasn't cured it it could well be part of the ancillary kit such as a power steering pump,alternator or a/c compresor....hope they sort it!


[This message has been edited by crusher (edited 08 September 2000).]

Opie

Have your garage check the motor mounts. Here in the US, several 2.5RS's have had symptoms like what you are describing. It turned out to be motor mounts that had come apart and were allowing the motor to rock, sometimes hitting metal on metal that was causing the knocks & noises. Hope this helps.

Otis

After writing to the MD of IM complaining about slow progress on this we now have moved forward, ever so slightly.

Having spent a day with it which included replacing the crank pulley and adjusting tappets without any success, they rang me yesterday with their latest conclusion - "it is the waste gate actuator and they all do it, so we won't be doing anything about it".

Apparently they changed the mountings on the more recent MY00's like mine, which is odd 'cos only last week they changed the crank pulley due to mine being an early MY00 with a cast pulley....mmmm I must stop messing with that time machine. Anyway, apparently the new mountings produce a sound as if the engine is knocking which is amplified by the wing, which again is a little odd as the noise is coming from within the bowels of the engine block and I didn't realise they fitted them in there.

So the outcome is that during the conversation it was mentioned that unbolting the component would stop it, so next Tuesday I've asked them to prove it. Dealer has been great and done everything they can - 10 out of 10, International Motors...er sorry I'm no good at fractions.

We'll see then. I hope IM are right but somehow doubt it. What do you think?

Oh and by the way when they mentioned they all do it I said that for every one they find that do it I'll produce 2 that don't - might need your help there. Any MY00 owners please comment below.


Otis.

SCOTTY

Hi Otis,

Phil.M. said you are going out with us on Sunday. I would like to have a listen when we meet up.
I have the silver W reg with 9000miles on it now and I am not to happy with mine either. I had a new turbo after only 1k!
My car is driven carefully and was run in to perfection, but... rattles and ticking noises **** me off! I'm begining to think these cars are lobbed together in a large shed in Taiwan.
I have a new noise which developed a week or so ago and it comes from underneath when accelerating hard, it's almost like a wet fingertip running around the rim of a wine glass when it starts to resonate. It happens between 3-5k.
And to top it off as I pulled up tonight to put my car in the garage as I stood in front of it.... ?!?!! Two plasticky knocking sounds ??????? For F#@KS SAKE!!
What's wrong with these cars. I've decided it's the last Subaru I buy.
How can you enjoy a car when every week there appears to be something ELSE wrong with it?

Scott.