headers - which?
31 October 2000, 10:50 PM
#1
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hey all, been awhile since I was on this board, but I cold use your advise. I am in teh states, and am swapping an STi 4 motor into my car (was built to "Gr. N specs..whatever that is" by MRT. I will be running he V4 ecu, with an apex ITC and S-AFC, Supra TT fuel pump, HKS EVC4, 3" downpipe, no cat, 3: exhaust (hand done by Rallispec here in the US) with an Apex N1 muffler. Turbo is a VF23, IC is a std. STi V4. I am interested in doing headers now, while the motor is out of the car. Which should I look at? JUN, Cusco, Syms? Also, what can I realistically expect out of tis motor in terms of power before having to go to a fully built motor and/or stand lone ecu?
01 November 2000, 09:09 AM
#2
Adam,
power output will depend a lot on the quality of fuel available, but I think the highest grade pump fuel in the US will probably be pretty much equivalent to the Super unleaded fuel we get here in the UK.
Power output would probably by in the region of 290 - 310bhp.
The headers don't seem to make a big difference, espceially for the cost. I only know a few people here in the UK who have them fitted, and this was pretty much the last thing they did.
For the money, I think you would get more benefit by going to a different ECU.
power output will depend a lot on the quality of fuel available, but I think the highest grade pump fuel in the US will probably be pretty much equivalent to the Super unleaded fuel we get here in the UK.
Power output would probably by in the region of 290 - 310bhp.
The headers don't seem to make a big difference, espceially for the cost. I only know a few people here in the UK who have them fitted, and this was pretty much the last thing they did.
For the money, I think you would get more benefit by going to a different ECU.
01 November 2000, 11:39 AM
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Can the standard engine cope with the headers upgrade - dont u get far more torque low down at the sacrifice of top end power?
Can the standard internals cope? - I would not be happy going this route until I had first uprated the internals in my sti5 - dont want potential melted pistons
Change the ECU first and then go for a bigger turbo - the VF23 is quite small, a modified VF22 would be much, much better
Can the standard internals cope? - I would not be happy going this route until I had first uprated the internals in my sti5 - dont want potential melted pistons
Change the ECU first and then go for a bigger turbo - the VF23 is quite small, a modified VF22 would be much, much better
01 November 2000, 01:50 PM
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I run about 1.4 bar on the VF22/28 going up to 1.5 bar on overboost. I would not want to be going above this
Different people will tell u differnt things - boost is not the best way, necessarily to get power
If you had a decent ECU u could up the ignition advance - this will give u shed loads of power hike - but dont go too far - otherwise det will be a major problem. I run lots of advancve now - but have to use octane booster for safety to give me about 99/100 - ron - I also utilise a large water tank in the boot! - to cool down the intercooler
Get advice from 'experts' over there before u mess with the advance. So many engines have been blowing up over here - but some tuners are much worse than others
Different people will tell u differnt things - boost is not the best way, necessarily to get power
If you had a decent ECU u could up the ignition advance - this will give u shed loads of power hike - but dont go too far - otherwise det will be a major problem. I run lots of advancve now - but have to use octane booster for safety to give me about 99/100 - ron - I also utilise a large water tank in the boot! - to cool down the intercooler
Get advice from 'experts' over there before u mess with the advance. So many engines have been blowing up over here - but some tuners are much worse than others
02 November 2000, 04:49 AM
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Adam,
I have a MY99 euro spec Impreza GT w/ EJ205 218ps motor, currently running the Prova header w/ Apexi downpipe and Trust DD exhaust. no cats...
The header is made by Prova, which is exactly the same as the Zero sport one. it's a two piece design system, header and a up-pipe to the turbo.
so if I want to go w/ big turbo and external wastegate, all I need to do is replace the up-pipe. unlike the one by Syms and Jun, you'll have to replace the whole header system.
Performance wise, I LOVE it, I do loose some low end torque around city driving, but once the rpm's over 3K, it SCREAMS all the way to the red line. The sound is very distinctive as well, more like a high raving big litter motorcycle in higher rpm, But during cruising, it's a lot quieter than before when I only had downpipe and cat-back exhaust.
During idle, the low rumble boxer beat is replaced w/ higher frequency, must faster beats...kinda hard to describe but very distinct from regular Impreza, and since the head is not a true equal length design, the beat is still there, unlike the Syms or Jun one, which the beat disappears....
With only the exhaust mods, I'm peaking at 1.1 bar and holding constant .9 bar w/o boost controller, which I think is about right for my type of driving.
Hope this info helps you somehow...^_^
John
I have a MY99 euro spec Impreza GT w/ EJ205 218ps motor, currently running the Prova header w/ Apexi downpipe and Trust DD exhaust. no cats...
The header is made by Prova, which is exactly the same as the Zero sport one. it's a two piece design system, header and a up-pipe to the turbo.
so if I want to go w/ big turbo and external wastegate, all I need to do is replace the up-pipe. unlike the one by Syms and Jun, you'll have to replace the whole header system.
Performance wise, I LOVE it, I do loose some low end torque around city driving, but once the rpm's over 3K, it SCREAMS all the way to the red line. The sound is very distinctive as well, more like a high raving big litter motorcycle in higher rpm, But during cruising, it's a lot quieter than before when I only had downpipe and cat-back exhaust.
During idle, the low rumble boxer beat is replaced w/ higher frequency, must faster beats...kinda hard to describe but very distinct from regular Impreza, and since the head is not a true equal length design, the beat is still there, unlike the Syms or Jun one, which the beat disappears....
With only the exhaust mods, I'm peaking at 1.1 bar and holding constant .9 bar w/o boost controller, which I think is about right for my type of driving.
Hope this info helps you somehow...^_^
John
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03 November 2000, 03:19 AM
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Adam,
I got it locally here in Taiwan.
It ain't cheap thou...close to 2k us$
but alomst all the tunning parts are expensive here and that was almost a year ago, I would assume the price has dropped since then.
I think you can buy the header from either Prova on-line or one of those on-line store like Speedlab.com, or checkerflag.co.jp
If you do decide to get the header, I would definitely recommand the two piece design....
since it would cut down the installation time to about 45 mins...It took a local Subaru dealer 4 hours to install the Syms header, what a PAIN that was....
John
I got it locally here in Taiwan.
It ain't cheap thou...close to 2k us$
but alomst all the tunning parts are expensive here and that was almost a year ago, I would assume the price has dropped since then.
I think you can buy the header from either Prova on-line or one of those on-line store like Speedlab.com, or checkerflag.co.jp
If you do decide to get the header, I would definitely recommand the two piece design....
since it would cut down the installation time to about 45 mins...It took a local Subaru dealer 4 hours to install the Syms header, what a PAIN that was....
John
03 November 2000, 01:54 PM
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Jon,
Does the turbo required to be removed for the installation of either Prova or SYMS headers.
I know for the fact the Zerosport header has a opitonal venturi pipe that will accelerate the gas to the turbo turbine housing spooling up the turbo faster,hence better low end response.Does Prova have this option??Inside this venturi pipe is also a restrictor that further accelerate the exhaust gas.
Does the turbo required to be removed for the installation of either Prova or SYMS headers.
I know for the fact the Zerosport header has a opitonal venturi pipe that will accelerate the gas to the turbo turbine housing spooling up the turbo faster,hence better low end response.Does Prova have this option??Inside this venturi pipe is also a restrictor that further accelerate the exhaust gas.
03 November 2000, 04:47 PM
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Chan,
I think the venturi pipe that you are referring is actually the up-pipe that I'm describing. I don't recall the up-pipe been an option of the Prova set up or not, but there were two pieces when I got it, one is the up-pipe(venturi pipe), and the other is the header itself.
In order to install the Prova header up-pipe, it must un-bolt the factory up-pipe from the turbo and replace it w/ the Prova up-pipe. After unbolt the header, in order to remove the factory up-pipe, the engine needs to be jacked up in order for the factory up-pipe to slid out and released.
So if you only purchase the Prova/ZeroSport header w/o the up-pipe, you do NOT need to remove the turbo and it's a very easy 20 mins job. But performance wise, the up-pipe (venturi pipe) played a very important role in my opinion. But for other headers like Syms, JUN, Cusco, the factory up-pipe HAS to be unbolt from the turbo.
As to the restrictor inside the venturi pipe, I really don't recall seeing one, maybe I wasn't looking at the right place?
Hope it helps,
John
[This message has been edited by JonJon (edited 03 November 2000).]
I think the venturi pipe that you are referring is actually the up-pipe that I'm describing. I don't recall the up-pipe been an option of the Prova set up or not, but there were two pieces when I got it, one is the up-pipe(venturi pipe), and the other is the header itself.
In order to install the Prova header up-pipe, it must un-bolt the factory up-pipe from the turbo and replace it w/ the Prova up-pipe. After unbolt the header, in order to remove the factory up-pipe, the engine needs to be jacked up in order for the factory up-pipe to slid out and released.
So if you only purchase the Prova/ZeroSport header w/o the up-pipe, you do NOT need to remove the turbo and it's a very easy 20 mins job. But performance wise, the up-pipe (venturi pipe) played a very important role in my opinion. But for other headers like Syms, JUN, Cusco, the factory up-pipe HAS to be unbolt from the turbo.
As to the restrictor inside the venturi pipe, I really don't recall seeing one, maybe I wasn't looking at the right place?
Hope it helps,
John
[This message has been edited by JonJon (edited 03 November 2000).]
05 November 2000, 06:07 PM
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JonJon,
Actually, a slight correction. I have the JUN headers on my STI IV working in conjunction with a TRUST TD06-20G turbo kit with a Trust external wastegate. Why would you think that the whole header system would need replacing? I initially used the turbo kit with the stock headers for half a year and only put the JUN headers on two weeks ago.
Adam, here are some impressions: i gather you would already know that there is significantly more lag using the TD06-20G as in my application - here is where the headers helped the most in reducing lag and allowing significantly quicker spool-up.. Also, the JUN headers COMPLETELY change the sound of the car - there is hardly any more of the standard "boxer" sound - instead, the tone is higher pitched and smoother.. (it really does sound like a WRC car from outside).. I have some avi. files, e-mail me if you want to hear them..
Actually, a slight correction. I have the JUN headers on my STI IV working in conjunction with a TRUST TD06-20G turbo kit with a Trust external wastegate. Why would you think that the whole header system would need replacing? I initially used the turbo kit with the stock headers for half a year and only put the JUN headers on two weeks ago.
Adam, here are some impressions: i gather you would already know that there is significantly more lag using the TD06-20G as in my application - here is where the headers helped the most in reducing lag and allowing significantly quicker spool-up.. Also, the JUN headers COMPLETELY change the sound of the car - there is hardly any more of the standard "boxer" sound - instead, the tone is higher pitched and smoother.. (it really does sound like a WRC car from outside).. I have some avi. files, e-mail me if you want to hear them..
06 November 2000, 02:44 AM
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JonH,
Hmm...I could be wrong, since the only header that I have is the Prova header. But I'm really interested to know how did you fit a external wastegate onto the JUN header? As you can see from the picture, the uppipe is integrated into the whole header, and it's designed w/ factory turbo with internal actuator. Did you fabricate a new wastegate pipe?? Thanks for the information.
BTW, what you don't see from the Prova header picture is the uppipe.
JUN header</p>
¡@</p>
Prova header</p>
As to the sound of JUN header, you are absolutely correct about it. As I've mention before, the Prova header is not a "true" equal length design, which during idle, it still contains the original boxer beat sound, but only in a much faster and high frequency.but in higher rpm, the sound total transforms into the "WRC like" sound as well.
Also, the design is different as well, JUN header is 4-2-1, and the Prova is 4-1 design...I guess just choose what you like.
[This message has been edited by JonJon (edited 06 November 2000).]
Hmm...I could be wrong, since the only header that I have is the Prova header. But I'm really interested to know how did you fit a external wastegate onto the JUN header? As you can see from the picture, the uppipe is integrated into the whole header, and it's designed w/ factory turbo with internal actuator. Did you fabricate a new wastegate pipe?? Thanks for the information.
BTW, what you don't see from the Prova header picture is the uppipe.
JUN header</p>
¡@</p>
Prova header</p>
As to the sound of JUN header, you are absolutely correct about it. As I've mention before, the Prova header is not a "true" equal length design, which during idle, it still contains the original boxer beat sound, but only in a much faster and high frequency.but in higher rpm, the sound total transforms into the "WRC like" sound as well.
Also, the design is different as well, JUN header is 4-2-1, and the Prova is 4-1 design...I guess just choose what you like.
[This message has been edited by JonJon (edited 06 November 2000).]
06 November 2000, 03:03 AM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JonJon:
<B>Btw, here is the header system from the ZeroSports web site, as you can see, the header is exact the same as the Prova one. and here is also a picture of the Prova/ZeroSports up-pipe.
ZeroSports header</p>
ZeroSports Up-pipe</p>[/quote]
[This message has been edited by JonJon (edited 06 November 2000).]
<B>Btw, here is the header system from the ZeroSports web site, as you can see, the header is exact the same as the Prova one. and here is also a picture of the Prova/ZeroSports up-pipe.
ZeroSports header</p>
ZeroSports Up-pipe</p>[/quote]
[This message has been edited by JonJon (edited 06 November 2000).]
06 November 2000, 03:54 AM
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JonJon,
Here's how it works; the TRUST turbo kit includes a curved v-shaped "adapter" pipe which relocates the turbo aswell as locating the wastegate down almost underneath the car close to the bottom area of the downpipe. I'm not sure if you've seen how the turbo is mounted but with most turbo kits (e.g. HKS GT2835, 3037 or Bozz Speed's version of the turbo kit) all have the turbo mounted in a "diagonal" direction and this is achieved with the adapter pipe so it would fit onto the stock headers...
[This message has been edited by JonH (edited 06 November 2000).]
Here's how it works; the TRUST turbo kit includes a curved v-shaped "adapter" pipe which relocates the turbo aswell as locating the wastegate down almost underneath the car close to the bottom area of the downpipe. I'm not sure if you've seen how the turbo is mounted but with most turbo kits (e.g. HKS GT2835, 3037 or Bozz Speed's version of the turbo kit) all have the turbo mounted in a "diagonal" direction and this is achieved with the adapter pipe so it would fit onto the stock headers...
[This message has been edited by JonH (edited 06 November 2000).]
06 November 2000, 05:09 AM
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JonH,
NOW that makes perfect sense...
thanks for the info!!
The turbo kit that I've seen is the Greddy t67 20g, he is using the V shape uppipe to mount the turbo and the wastegate. Then the uppipe is mounted to the ZeroSports header.
BTW, what other mods are you running??
Thanks!!
NOW that makes perfect sense...
thanks for the info!!
The turbo kit that I've seen is the Greddy t67 20g, he is using the V shape uppipe to mount the turbo and the wastegate. Then the uppipe is mounted to the ZeroSports header.
BTW, what other mods are you running??
Thanks!!
06 November 2000, 08:56 AM
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JonJon,
you've got the right idea; i believe my setup is somewhat similar to the setup you've seen (except the T67 is bigger of course)..
here's the list of engine mods i'm running;
- Trust TD06-20G turbo kit including wastegate, downpipe
- Trust front mount intercooler
- HKS F-Con V Pro with JUN's data (S.Koyama of JUN came to Hong Kong to fine tune my setup)
- BNR34 GTR fuel pump with Nismo 550cc injectors
- 5 Zigen 304 max exhaust
- Zero Sports light weight pulley set
- Cusco 3 "paddle" type clutch and Cusco flywheel
- Blitz Dual SBC
you've got the right idea; i believe my setup is somewhat similar to the setup you've seen (except the T67 is bigger of course)..
here's the list of engine mods i'm running;
- Trust TD06-20G turbo kit including wastegate, downpipe
- Trust front mount intercooler
- HKS F-Con V Pro with JUN's data (S.Koyama of JUN came to Hong Kong to fine tune my setup)
- BNR34 GTR fuel pump with Nismo 550cc injectors
- 5 Zigen 304 max exhaust
- Zero Sports light weight pulley set
- Cusco 3 "paddle" type clutch and Cusco flywheel
- Blitz Dual SBC
06 November 2000, 09:49 AM
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JonH
Thanks for the list. ^__^
btw, how do you like the HKS fcon v pro??
I'm currently debating it between either the Fcon or the Apexi power fc. and since I don't think Mr. Koyama will come to Taiwan to tune my car personally( ^_^ ), power fc seems to be the better choice??
btw, Haltec E6K seems to be another option that I'm considering.
any opinions??
Thanks for the list. ^__^
btw, how do you like the HKS fcon v pro??
I'm currently debating it between either the Fcon or the Apexi power fc. and since I don't think Mr. Koyama will come to Taiwan to tune my car personally( ^_^ ), power fc seems to be the better choice??
btw, Haltec E6K seems to be another option that I'm considering.
any opinions??
06 November 2000, 02:40 PM
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JonJon,
Yes,it's the Zerosport Up pipe I was referring to.It does have a restrictor in the up pipe and the end where it is bolted to the turbo is smaller than the end where it is bolted to the header.
What turbo are you using?
Have you consider using Link ECU?Not advertising,for your info.
I am currently looking for headers too but need to hear more from you guys who are using headers in terms of lags,low,mid and high range,etc,etc.
Thanks.
Yes,it's the Zerosport Up pipe I was referring to.It does have a restrictor in the up pipe and the end where it is bolted to the turbo is smaller than the end where it is bolted to the header.
What turbo are you using?
Have you consider using Link ECU?Not advertising,for your info.
I am currently looking for headers too but need to hear more from you guys who are using headers in terms of lags,low,mid and high range,etc,etc.
Thanks.
07 November 2000, 06:14 AM
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Chan,
I'm currently using the factory turbo, but am considering either the vf2X or the Apexi AX53B60-P20¡@. Any recommendations?
As to the ecu, I basically ruled out the Link, not that it's not a good product, just no one has ever used it here in Taiwan. There are plenty of Power FC's and Fcon around here, even the Haltec E6K, so I know where to turn if I run into trouble. Plus, the link doesn't seem to be the favorite ecu in the American "i" club...they all seem to be dissing it, I wonder why??
As to the header, it really depends on what you like, there are not that many on the market.
we have:
Prova/ZeroSports: 4-1 design, two piece system, not "true" equal length tube design
JUN, SYMS, CUSCO: 4-2-1 design, one piece, true equal length tube design.
There are some other brand on the market which I have no experience with.
Sound wise, I like the Prova/ZeroSports type since it retained the boxer beat....w/ other headers that I've heard, it really sounds like a NA engine, some of us has nicked named it as "Civic on steroids" sound.
In terms of lags, there are definitly some since I'm not running any cats at all, but once the turbo picks up, it spools up REALLY fast. like I said before, w/o any aftermarket boost control, I'm peaking at 1.1 bar and holding 0.9 bar nicely all day long.
I think I will benefit from the header a lot more if I'm running bigger turbo, I guess I just went a different route from most people?
Anyway, all the header listed above are similar in price and EXCELLENT in quality. So, pick what you like in terms of performance, design (4-1 or 4-2-1) and sound (true equal length or not). Some people will argue that True equal length is the reason why the header should be replaced, so the Syms/JUN/Cusco header should be the better choice....oh well....personally, I LOVE the boxer beat during idling...
I'm currently using the factory turbo, but am considering either the vf2X or the Apexi AX53B60-P20¡@. Any recommendations?
As to the ecu, I basically ruled out the Link, not that it's not a good product, just no one has ever used it here in Taiwan. There are plenty of Power FC's and Fcon around here, even the Haltec E6K, so I know where to turn if I run into trouble. Plus, the link doesn't seem to be the favorite ecu in the American "i" club...they all seem to be dissing it, I wonder why??
As to the header, it really depends on what you like, there are not that many on the market.
we have:
Prova/ZeroSports: 4-1 design, two piece system, not "true" equal length tube design
JUN, SYMS, CUSCO: 4-2-1 design, one piece, true equal length tube design.
There are some other brand on the market which I have no experience with.
Sound wise, I like the Prova/ZeroSports type since it retained the boxer beat....w/ other headers that I've heard, it really sounds like a NA engine, some of us has nicked named it as "Civic on steroids" sound.
In terms of lags, there are definitly some since I'm not running any cats at all, but once the turbo picks up, it spools up REALLY fast. like I said before, w/o any aftermarket boost control, I'm peaking at 1.1 bar and holding 0.9 bar nicely all day long.
I think I will benefit from the header a lot more if I'm running bigger turbo, I guess I just went a different route from most people?
Anyway, all the header listed above are similar in price and EXCELLENT in quality. So, pick what you like in terms of performance, design (4-1 or 4-2-1) and sound (true equal length or not). Some people will argue that True equal length is the reason why the header should be replaced, so the Syms/JUN/Cusco header should be the better choice....oh well....personally, I LOVE the boxer beat during idling...
10 November 2000, 01:07 PM
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JonJon,
Thanks for your info.Making a decision of which headers is like making a decision of which turbo to buy.
Power Turbine turbo seems to be very popular in Brunei.I myself is using Garrett turbo from AVO.
You are right for the choice of ECU.Here in Brunei,there are a quite a number of Link users.APEXI FC seems to be a good choice for you in case if you decide to go for bigger turbo,then you can always get APEXI 550cc injectors.
Thanks for your info.Making a decision of which headers is like making a decision of which turbo to buy.
Power Turbine turbo seems to be very popular in Brunei.I myself is using Garrett turbo from AVO.
You are right for the choice of ECU.Here in Brunei,there are a quite a number of Link users.APEXI FC seems to be a good choice for you in case if you decide to go for bigger turbo,then you can always get APEXI 550cc injectors.
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