Did you know that current synthetic lubricant technology can greatly reduce internal frictional losses within the engine and drive train. This can lead to 3 - 5% increase in power at the wheels.

This has been proven on rolling roads at major oil / lubricant companies.

PS Anyone using mineral based lubricants in his Scooby is

1) Missing a cost effective advantage
2) Asking for trouble with his Turbo

 

That'll be why Subaru UK recommend Shell Helix semi synthetic then.......

 

Jets, congrats on a nice controversial topic with your first post.

There's been plenty of debate on this subject recently. Run a search. The conclusion is that thin watery oil is the last thing you want in a Scoob, especially for the turbo.

Have you got any facts to back up your claimed power increase figures?

Get your flamesuit on, M8. And welcome to ScoobyNet - it's all friendly fire

Richard.

[This message has been edited by Hoppy (edited 25 March 2001).]

 

I couldnt recomend a semi synthetic in a performance car like a scooby however I am not nocking Subaru.

Would you buy a set of tyres with only half the tread?

Theres also gearbox and rear axel synthetic lubes that will give much better antiwear performance and reduce frictional losses.....hence more HP to the tarmac.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dave T-S:
<B>That'll be why Subaru UK recommend Shell Helix semi synthetic then....... [/quote]

 

This has been "dun tu deth" but its always a good debate so why not do it again. Archives contain a wealth of info.

BTW Jets1in what mileage would you suggest fully synthetic should be used from ? ... and yes it is a "trik" question.

 

Right... Lets get down to basics. A multigrade oil works like this.

Viscosity is usually measured at two tempreatures, for a new oil 100 C and 40 C

There is a tempreature / viscosity gradiant, which is not linear, for all lubricants be they gear oils or enginer / hydraulic oils, turbine oils etc.

At cold tempreatures oils tend to become higher in viscosity (theres an increased resistance to flow). So lets think about this your Scooby sits overnight at lets say 2 or 3 degrees Centrigrade the engine and drivetrain soak to this tempreature. You jump in and turn the key and the engine starts to turn over, seconds latter oil starts to flow. Those crucial seconds as the engine turns but no lubricant flows can cause engine / Turbo wear ( the turbo is someway away from the oil pump if I remeber)

So if you can reduce that time lag to get oil to those vital parts using a lower viscosity product (read synthetics 0w 5w or 10w) whilst maintaing a lubricant film thickness and having good oxidation stability your on a winner.

On the high tempreature side of things as lubricants increase in tempreature with the engine the viscosity starts to tail off this is OK as long as you maintain engine protection through cooling and lubricating.
You are now moving towards the area the lubricant is designed best to work at, normal operating tempreature. Where synthetics score is they are much better at operating at higher or very high tempreatures because they dont thin out as quickly and offer better film strength / oxidation stability (read protects your engine better if you cook it thrash it or run it low on oil)

Right so lets get this all put together

With lets say 0w 40 Fully Syntheic product you get the advantage of the lower viscosity at start up and in colder climates. The engine and turbo benefit from quickly being lubricated and there should be a reduction in engine / turbo wear.
As the engine gets hotter and the lubricant moves up to act as a 40 weight oil the synthetic product will provide much better film strength (wear protection) and oxidation stability (it dosnt go black and guck up like your chip pan).

Right so if you can mainatain the lubrication antiwear whilst using a lower viscosity product you win on the horsepower stakes too.
Lower viscosity synthetic products cause less drag in the engine or gearbox / diff whilst they also lubricate (much more slippy stuff) much better than their mineral or semi synthetic cousins.

Trials have been done on HGV vehicles as well as cars / motocycles that indicate increases of 3 to 5% in HP using synthetics in engines and drivetrains.

Ill try to dig some of this stuff out it could be interesting for the tuning guys

I notice Subaru have a nice little sticker saying idle your engine before shutdown. Good housekeeping Subaru well done. The reason for this is to cool the turbo shaft and turbo bearing sufficently to reduce wear and coking the engine oil. Its an old trick adopted from the early days of turbo cars. Its also less of an issue these days with synthetics but it dosnt do any harm.

Anyone got any specific lubricant related issues ? (I work for a major oil company)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hoppy:
<B>Jets, congrats on a nice controversial topic with your first post.

There's been plenty of debate on this subject recently. Run a search. The conclusion is that thin watery oil is the last thing you want in a Scoob, especially for the turbo.

Have you got any facts to back up your claimed power increase figures?

Get your flamesuit on, M8. And welcome to ScoobyNet - it's all friendly fire

Richard.

[This message has been edited by Hoppy (edited 25 March 2001).][/quote]

 

Dear trik Question,

Always follow manufacturers guide lines on oil changes (we can do this one first) however there are a couple of interesting points here.

1) Synthetic lubes can perform satisfactoraly much longer due their superior performance and advanced addative package. I have done trials on HGV's which drained oil at up to 150,000 Km with carefull managment. Engine was fine and we eventually adopted this as a the norm for this vehicle. (CAUTION ON NO ATTEMPT TRY THIS ON YOU SCOOBY)

2) Synthetics in gearboxes can and are filled for life depending on the application. I would sugest with the correct lubricant, the gearbox and diff on a normal Scooby could be filled for life with all the benefits that would bring. Ask and I will tell you

Regarding using a synthetic engine oil in a new car Its a no no. The engine needs to fully "bed in" before adopting a synthetic. I would sugest you follow Subaru's recomendation regarding running in your car. After 10,000 miles everything should be ok

PS If you live near Swindon your likley to ask "trik questions" because you work for a international oil company

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bob Rawle:
<B>This has been "dun tu deth" but its always a good debate so why not do it again. Archives contain a wealth of info.

BTW Jets1in what mileage would you suggest fully synthetic should be used from ? ... and yes it is a "trik" question.

[/quote]

 

From being new my MY00 has been serviced at Gibson of Brock who always use Mobil 1. When I questioned this they stated that they used 5w/40 and not 0w/40, does this oil exist?

Thanks

KHB

 

Hi Jets1in

The knowledgable people on this site recommend using 50W or 60W synthetic oil in the Scooby turbo engine especially if you do trackdays.
This is because there is a well documented problem concerning failure of the no3 big end bearing.This is despite the fact that the oil runs fairly cool and the sump has a large capacity and the oil pressure is high as standard.
Would you go along with this advice?

My mate has a fast and high revving Honda CRX V tec and changed from 60W to 40W oil and noticed a big improvement.

Andy

 

all dealers were given a notice not to use mobil 1 0w40 because it is to thin and could cause damage to the turbo.
and if you ever drained a scooby on it's 30,000 m service and see the amount of muck and dirt that is stuck to the magnet then you will realise why they are not sealed for life units.
we also deal with a customer who worked for esso and used an esso gearbox lube in his car and he problems selecting first gear after a long journey because the oil was to thin to start with. changed it back and hey presto no problems.

[This message has been edited by scoobyboy (edited 25 March 2001).]

 

Hi Dave T-S,

SGT, Scooby dealer in the south , just recommended me to use Castrol Magnatex.....?

Strange how dealers vary when they shouldn't.....

J

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by KHB:
<B>From being new my MY00 has been serviced at Gibson of Brock who always use Mobil 1. When I questioned this they stated that they used 5w/40 and not 0w/40, does this oil exist?

Thanks

KHB[/quote]

0/40 is the stock off the shelf stuff, 5/40 is Mobil 1 motorsport, rarer to find.....

 

Dave,

Thought stock Mobil 1 was 5-40.

Mobil 1 Motorsport is 15-50.

 

Actually, we are both wrong - dang memory......

Regular is 0/40, motorsport is 15/50

 

&lt;tut&gt; why do we bother?

Jets1n is pretty much spot on.

I'm not gonna put up another long post on this, but a couple of things need to be considered.

The lower the temperature/general climate where you live, the lower the first number should be. This allows the rapid lubrication of friction parts on start-up (the period where 80% of engine wear occurs)

The higher temp/stress your car sees, the higher the last number should be.

The difference (spread) between the lowest and highest number should be as small as possible.

I run 0W40 in Winter (Mobil 1) 5W40 in summer (hah)(Millers Fully synthetic) and 10W60 for track events. (Millers Fully Synthetic.

Mobil also do a 5W40 for dealers only.

Any respectably named Synthetic should do the Job better (ENTIRELY dependant upon accurately evaluating the correct one for the correct conditions).

Mike.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jets1in:
[B]I couldnt recomend a semi synthetic in a performance car like a scooby however I am not nocking Subaru.


Jets1in
I've used Mobil 1 in all my cars for at least the last 10 years and am a great fan.

The reason for not using it in the Scoob is cos of IM's indifferent approach to warranty issues (and I have 2.5 years warranty to go).

The simple fact is, if your engine lets go (and a few have) and you are running the SUK recommended oil, it's one less thing to argue the warranty over. And when the warranty runs out, hell, i'll be in a Focus Cosworth then.......

 

A mate has a Volvo T4. Checking his manual, it specifically says to use oils which meet API SJ / ACEA A-3-98 and CCMC G-5 specs. Anyone got a clue what the ACEA and CCMC specs relate to? I think the CCMC refers to cold viscosity, as a 5W rated full synth is G5 but a OW is G4 ..... or something

 

Brickboy,
API and ACEA are quality ratings - SJ is the best quality (as opposed to SG and SH). Mobil1, Silkolene, Castrol fully synths are SJ.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jets1in:
<B>Anyone got any specific lubricant related issues ? (I work for a major oil company)
Regarding using a synthetic engine oil in a new car Its a no no[/quote]
Yep - I understand that fully synthetic prevents as much wear as semi, which slows down the bedding in process - but I'd have thought it should bed in quicker than 10,000 miles - won't it bed in well enough on fully synth? (which is pretty much what I've used since day 1).
If we're taking our cars on track before 10,000 miles or so, would you not suggest using a fully synth?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike Tuckwood:
<B>The difference (spread) between the lowest and highest number should be as small as possible[/quote]

Mike,
Why?

Also, re the point that 80% of engine wear occurs when warming an engine - this is presumably a std figure which covers all cars and drivers. For those of us that take our cars on track, I'd have thought that the percentage maybe quite different.


[This message has been edited by Triggaaar (edited 26 March 2001).]

 

Hi

There will be several different viscosity versions of Mobil 1 depending on where in the world you buy it. They just add the base oils together in different ratios...its a bit like baking a cake. Different visc are used to take into account variations in climate and conditions. (less of a problem with a full synthetic may I add)

I am suprised the dealer advised to use synthetic from new. However I am sure he knows what he is doing !!!!!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by KHB:
<B>From being new my MY00 has been serviced at Gibson of Brock who always use Mobil 1. When I questioned this they stated that they used 5w/40 and not 0w/40, does this oil exist?

Thanks

KHB[/quote]

 

Hi

API is American Petroleum Institute.... just a body of people who set up specifications on lubricants and other stuff. ACEA are a similar group of vehicle manufacturers from europe. Please note Subaru tend to use a misture of eurpoean and american specs. Non of these specs are particullaly demanding I might add...... That could be a reflection on part of SUBARU tech dept.

basicly the S in SJ stands for spark ingnition. The specs are alphabetical and as they get higher the spec gets, in general terms, gets harder to meet.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Triggaaar:
<B>Brickboy,
API and ACEA are quality ratings - SJ is the best quality (as opposed to SG and SH). Mobil1, Silkolene, Castrol fully synths are SJ.

Regarding wear rates. We have seen measurable changes in engine wear rates and depending on the driver sat behind a wheel.
You can be sure that if you take it to the track wear rates will increase.
Mike,
Why?

Also, re the point that 80% of engine wear occurs when warming an engine - this is presumably a std figure which covers all cars and drivers. For those of us that take our cars on track, I'd have thought that the percentage maybe quite different.


[This message has been edited by Triggaaar (edited 26 March 2001).]</B>[/QUOTE]

 

There may be good reason for this bearing failure especialy if there is a pattern to it. It will not be the lubricants fault it failed, more likley a design related factor.

I cannot see any reason why you would use a lubricant that high in viscosity for a Scooby

In what order are bearings lubricated by the oil pump. Wouldnt be suppised if no 3 is last one on the list.

If its track days that are causing problems it may be the design of the sump. If you go throwing it around you could possibly starve the oil pump of oil.......its a thought.

Synthetics are more lubristic (slippy)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by AndyMc:
<B>Hi Jets1in

The knowledgable people on this site recommend using 50W or 60W synthetic oil in the Scooby turbo engine especially if you do trackdays.
This is because there is a well documented problem concerning failure of the no3 big end bearing.This is despite the fact that the oil runs fairly cool and the sump has a large capacity and the oil pressure is high as standard.
Would you go along with this advice?

My mate has a fast and high revving Honda CRX V tec and changed from 60W to 40W oil and noticed a big improvement.

Andy[/quote]

 

I am sure SUBARU no what they are doing however Toyota ralley team used 0w 40 with no problems.

Related to the gearbox and final drives yes gearboxes do create metal however gearboxes and final drives are different to engines in that they are a sealed system. The main reason for changing oil in your engine is to remove

1) contaminants from combustion... acids, water, soot, unburnt fuel etc

2) the engine oil additive pack gets used up as you burn fuel (it nuetralises the acid proiduced from the combustion process. If it didnt your enngine would rust inside and soft bearing materials would be eaten away.

Gearboxe lubricants have to deal largley with wear, bit of heat and to stop corrosion.

The metal bits you are finding are because of extreme preasure wear. This can be reduced by using the correct/better lubricant.

There are a number of full synthetic grades I would use and fill for life in the gearbox and final drive for normal road use. They could be filled for life.

If your doing track stuff and get a kick out of pearing inside, looking at kogs change your oil every meeting. If you can offord it that is.


Mr Esso man chose the wrong grade. Its likley he chose either the wrong viscosity lubricant or the incorrect extreme preasure additive.

I guess Mr Esso dealt with Esso fuels?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by scoobyboy:
<B>all dealers were given a notice not to use mobil 1 0w40 because it is to thin and could cause damage to the turbo.
and if you ever drained a scooby on it's 30,000 m service and see the amount of muck and dirt that is stuck to the magnet then you will realise why they are not sealed for life units.
we also deal with a customer who worked for esso and used an esso gearbox lube in his car and he problems selecting first gear after a long journey because the oil was to thin to start with. changed it back and hey presto no problems.

[This message has been edited by scoobyboy (edited 25 March 2001).][/quote]

 

Well said

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike Tuckwood:
<B>&lt;tut&gt; why do we bother?

Jets1n is pretty much spot on.

I'm not gonna put up another long post on this, but a couple of things need to be considered.

The lower the temperature/general climate where you live, the lower the first number should be. This allows the rapid lubrication of friction parts on start-up (the period where 80% of engine wear occurs)

The higher temp/stress your car sees, the higher the last number should be.

The difference (spread) between the lowest and highest number should be as small as possible.

I run 0W40 in Winter (Mobil 1) 5W40 in summer (hah)(Millers Fully synthetic) and 10W60 for track events. (Millers Fully Synthetic.

Mobil also do a 5W40 for dealers only.

Any respectably named Synthetic should do the Job better (ENTIRELY dependant upon accurately evaluating the correct one for the correct conditions).

Mike.[/quote]

 

Quiet wise to follow manafactueres warrenty requirements. However I would like to see any car manufacturer argue with an oil company related to the suitability of a lubricant. That is assuming you buy high quality synthetic lube from a major oil company

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dave T-S:
<B>

 

Triggaaar

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR><B>The difference (spread) between the lowest and highest number should be as small as possible.[/quote]

Because the larger the gap, the greater range of conditions you are asking the oil to operate within.

The narrower the band the more focussed on that area the oil can work and concentrate its performance within.


Mike.

 

Mike is right but please do not forget viscosity is only one feature of a lubricant. There are many others that need to be taken into account thats where the API and ACEA specs come in. Also note these specs are min specs and some lubricants will far excede the "minimum" of the spec

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike Tuckwood:
<B>Triggaaar

Because the larger the gap, the greater range of conditions you are asking the oil to operate within.

The narrower the band the more focussed on that area the oil can work and concentrate its performance within.


Mike.[/quote]

 

Told you ... what a great thread this is turning out to be and no Jets1in, I don't have anything to do with oil companies.

Mobil 1 was always 5w-40 up until 1997 (ish) when they changed it to 0w-40. I was using it in a Vauxhall Turbo at the time and covered in excess of 70,000 miles in a fairly modified car, the only issue with it was that the hydraulic lifters clattered on cold start until warm , this was just down to their age and the fact that clearances needed to close up, once warm no problem. Turbo seals used to leak a bit when cold, up until the turbo oil drain was doubled in cross section and, again, then no trouble.

Subaru have not tested the 0w-40 that's the reason they don't recommend it, its nothing to do with it damaging anything. They have tested 5w-40 and thats why Mobil brought it back, you can buy it in the shops if you look around, its not dealer exclusive.

I run either 5w-40 or 10w-50 depending on what I have to hand. My oil and filter get changed every 3750 miles. In winter cold cranking/starting is definately easier with the 5w-40.

Any engine etc should be run for at least 5000 miles preferably 7500 before a full synthetic is used to ensure bedding in takes place, the oil initially put into the car is designed to help the running in process, a good semi-synthetic should then be used before graduating to the "good stuff"

If the oil path is calculated then both No3 and No 2 are fed from the same journal and are equal distance from the pump.

 

What would be the general consciences be that I do in my position, with regards to which oil type I use. As I am going to the Nurburgring in less than 3 weeks time and my car has only covered just over 1000 miles.

Should I use synthetic or use a mineral based oil or even a semi synthetic?
Also which viscosity range would be best suited for the task?

Thanks Ian

 

I can appreciate that a fully synthetic oil is "better" than a semi-synthetic in theoretical terms.

What I don't understand is why do Subaru recommend a semi-synthetic oil? Surely if there was a difference in engine/turbo durability, it would be in their interest to recommend a fully synthetic oil if this meant fewer engine failures and warranty claims. They don't pay for the oil after all - we do.

I suspect that they have tested both and concluded that fully synth is unnecessary for standard road cars.

D.

 

You know that subaru whorld rally team uses
motul oil 300V.