has anyone fitted a VF28 turbo to a UK car?
27 July 2001, 12:17 AM
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have to re route oil feed etc, but it can be done.
Any turbo that will give an improvement in one place, will be worse in others. Unless you take a leap forward in blade design (our turbos are almost relics) it is going to be a trade off.
vf28 will still spoll quickly, but not as quick as td04. Have you considered a TD05? will be slower spool up, not as bad as a vf 22 but will flow shed loads at lower temp. and be a direct easy replacement.
Any turbo that will give an improvement in one place, will be worse in others. Unless you take a leap forward in blade design (our turbos are almost relics) it is going to be a trade off.
vf28 will still spoll quickly, but not as quick as td04. Have you considered a TD05? will be slower spool up, not as bad as a vf 22 but will flow shed loads at lower temp. and be a direct easy replacement.
27 July 2001, 11:09 AM
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i have a UK MY99, allready have a Full de-cat exaust & induction kit and im having a unichip & HKS EVC pro fitted in about 2 weeks from power station. (will be running a about 1.15 bar)
im happy with the standard turbo, but it runs out of puff higher up in the rev range
most people recomend a VF23 but i dont think it will spool up as quick as a the standard turbo (TD04)& a hybrid option is expensive.
im considering secondhand VF28 for my Car and was wondering if anybody else had fitted one?
will i notice a difference above 5000rpm?
will spool up as quick as a standard turbo?
is it a straght forward swap?
would i be better sticking with the standard turbo or change to a VF28?
mikee
27 July 2001, 01:09 PM
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I'm in the same position, just done the ECU thing...and looking for a bit more middle/top end. Upped boost has emphasized (sp?) the poor high end performance of the TD04...
I've just been recommended a VF24...but I don't want to spend money on something that won't do much difference.
I'm not that eager to spend silly money on Saturday night special jap jobbies either... (northener
)
What are you guys with modded euro scoobs running?
/J
I've just been recommended a VF24...but I don't want to spend money on something that won't do much difference.
I'm not that eager to spend silly money on Saturday night special jap jobbies either... (northener
)What are you guys with modded euro scoobs running?
/J
30 July 2001, 12:36 AM
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Oh...different pipework?
If I'd - hypothetically speaking - get a VF24 or a 22 hybrid...what would be needed to get it working in the car?
I thought that the up/downpipe was the same?
Pat...I know you said trust noone...but now I need a little bit of input.
Cheers
/JMan
If I'd - hypothetically speaking - get a VF24 or a 22 hybrid...what would be needed to get it working in the car?
I thought that the up/downpipe was the same?
Pat...I know you said trust noone...but now I need a little bit of input.
Cheers
/JMan
30 July 2001, 01:48 AM
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Hi all!
There are, as always, lots of options....
Start with a few basics... the MHI TD-04L is a sleve bearing turbo with a very small exhaust housing and a small compressor, hence it spools up quickly and runs out of puff at the top end.... remember that the entry is the constant, so replacing the turbo with a larger compressor cover will require that the core be moved back a bit.... hence different pipework. I can't remember exactly off the top of my head, but the TD-04L and TD-05H my have different pipework... certainly if you're going to an FHI turbo then it will be required.
The TD-05H was a special for Subaru dating back to the Group A rally days, it's a homologation unit, and it has the potential to flow HUGE amounts of air. Remember that Prodrive used to get about 400BHP out of the Group A Imprezas. It's also very tough. My unit outlasted 4 engines and when stripped down to be rebuilt before selling it (I wanted to be sure I wasn't selling a duff turbo) it was pristine.... no wear, and it had been subjected to antilag, lack of a dump valve etc etc... they're tough as old boots! Trouble is that they are *NOT* drop in replacements, the cover is incompatible with a TD-04L based car. Fortunately there's a company in Kingstone Bagpuize called Owen Developments who will, for a "small" fee, take your TD-05H cover and fit the correct entry to it so it will just drop in. I had them do this a couple of times, and the their work was, errr, what can I say... I had them make it in two bits (a screw in bit and the cover, so a restrictor can be screwed in for rallying) and the two are seamless, I mean TOTALLY seamless, I cannot feel or even see the seam when screwed together (it's pretty much a mirror finish), it's the closest to perfection I have ever seen in an engineered part. For anything MHI turbo related, these guys are my first, and only, port of call. As for spool up, the TD-05H is big, its compressor wheel is bigger than the much vaunted VF22, and it's a sleve bearing so it's no spring chicken, but when it gets on a roll it's devastatingly effective. I extracted 270 BHP out of one at 1 bar boost on Star Performance's rollers (quite conservative, similar to Powerstation). The unit will probably hold 1.8 bar all day long, so go figure... Is it too much / too laggy for a UK car? That is easily answered.... up to 1997 they WERE USED on UK car. But not with the straight entry. This mod is worth a bit on its own (the original intake path was convoluted, which is the biggest no-no in turboland).
Moving on to IHI turbos.... there are basically three "families". There's the VF23 and VF22, which both have P20 exhaust housings, but different compressors. Then there's the VF24 / VF 28 which have P18 (smaller) exhaust housings, but similar compressors. Then there's the much hyped VF29 which has a newer blade design on the compressor, with IIRC a P-18 exhaust housing. All will work, but with different results.
VF22 will flow the most, but will be a bit laggy... or more accurately with a higher boost threshold... once over that they do spool up reasonably quickly. The VF23 is probably NOT worth considering since it will have all the downside of the P-20 housing (high boost threshold) but without the flow of a 22.... A VF24/28 is a good compromise, it will have a lower boost threshold and it will flow well... The VF29 seems to be currently made from unobtainium
and therefore not really worth considering (and when you can get it, it's a bit on the dear side, there's MUCH better designs out there for similar cash).
You can also mix'n'match....take a VF22 and slap a P-18 exhaust housing on it and you almost have the best of both worlds.... lots of flow but lower boost threshold. That can't be a bad thing
If prepared to ditch the Subaru flange pattern then the sky is the limit. You say what you want and odds are you can do it. You'de opened the door to some of the most advanced turbo technology in the world... variable geometry turbos, variable area turbines, multiple scrolls, the list is almost endless. The VATN is unique in its ability to make the best use of available exhaust gas... it does not need a wastegate, it continually varies its A/R ratio (effectively) to regulate boost. It is also unique in so far as it can generate higher pressure at the compressor exit than there is going into the turbine (normally this is only possible with ridiculously big exhaust but a VATN can generate sensible boost almost from idle!).
At the end of the day, it's a question of what you want to achieve and just how determined you are to achieve it (would you throw away the up pipe and downpipe, get custom ones made, and spend serious amounts of money on a turbo?).
FWIW, I am running an MHI TD-06/20G TD-05L hybrid with external wastegate. It has lag, ie even over the boost threshold, it takes a little time to spool up, but it has a massive compressor... it will also flow a lot of air... another installation (admittedly a 2.2) made 430 BHP at 1.4 bar boost
Hopefully it will prove as reliable as my trusty old TD-05H, and if it should go wrong, I know that it can have a new bearing kit installed, unlike IHI turbos which require a whole new core...
Hope this helps,
Pat.
There are, as always, lots of options....
Start with a few basics... the MHI TD-04L is a sleve bearing turbo with a very small exhaust housing and a small compressor, hence it spools up quickly and runs out of puff at the top end.... remember that the entry is the constant, so replacing the turbo with a larger compressor cover will require that the core be moved back a bit.... hence different pipework. I can't remember exactly off the top of my head, but the TD-04L and TD-05H my have different pipework... certainly if you're going to an FHI turbo then it will be required.
The TD-05H was a special for Subaru dating back to the Group A rally days, it's a homologation unit, and it has the potential to flow HUGE amounts of air. Remember that Prodrive used to get about 400BHP out of the Group A Imprezas. It's also very tough. My unit outlasted 4 engines and when stripped down to be rebuilt before selling it (I wanted to be sure I wasn't selling a duff turbo) it was pristine.... no wear, and it had been subjected to antilag, lack of a dump valve etc etc... they're tough as old boots! Trouble is that they are *NOT* drop in replacements, the cover is incompatible with a TD-04L based car. Fortunately there's a company in Kingstone Bagpuize called Owen Developments who will, for a "small" fee, take your TD-05H cover and fit the correct entry to it so it will just drop in. I had them do this a couple of times, and the their work was, errr, what can I say... I had them make it in two bits (a screw in bit and the cover, so a restrictor can be screwed in for rallying) and the two are seamless, I mean TOTALLY seamless, I cannot feel or even see the seam when screwed together (it's pretty much a mirror finish), it's the closest to perfection I have ever seen in an engineered part. For anything MHI turbo related, these guys are my first, and only, port of call. As for spool up, the TD-05H is big, its compressor wheel is bigger than the much vaunted VF22, and it's a sleve bearing so it's no spring chicken, but when it gets on a roll it's devastatingly effective. I extracted 270 BHP out of one at 1 bar boost on Star Performance's rollers (quite conservative, similar to Powerstation). The unit will probably hold 1.8 bar all day long, so go figure... Is it too much / too laggy for a UK car? That is easily answered.... up to 1997 they WERE USED on UK car. But not with the straight entry. This mod is worth a bit on its own (the original intake path was convoluted, which is the biggest no-no in turboland).
Moving on to IHI turbos.... there are basically three "families". There's the VF23 and VF22, which both have P20 exhaust housings, but different compressors. Then there's the VF24 / VF 28 which have P18 (smaller) exhaust housings, but similar compressors. Then there's the much hyped VF29 which has a newer blade design on the compressor, with IIRC a P-18 exhaust housing. All will work, but with different results.
VF22 will flow the most, but will be a bit laggy... or more accurately with a higher boost threshold... once over that they do spool up reasonably quickly. The VF23 is probably NOT worth considering since it will have all the downside of the P-20 housing (high boost threshold) but without the flow of a 22.... A VF24/28 is a good compromise, it will have a lower boost threshold and it will flow well... The VF29 seems to be currently made from unobtainium
and therefore not really worth considering (and when you can get it, it's a bit on the dear side, there's MUCH better designs out there for similar cash).You can also mix'n'match....take a VF22 and slap a P-18 exhaust housing on it and you almost have the best of both worlds.... lots of flow but lower boost threshold. That can't be a bad thing
If prepared to ditch the Subaru flange pattern then the sky is the limit. You say what you want and odds are you can do it. You'de opened the door to some of the most advanced turbo technology in the world... variable geometry turbos, variable area turbines, multiple scrolls, the list is almost endless. The VATN is unique in its ability to make the best use of available exhaust gas... it does not need a wastegate, it continually varies its A/R ratio (effectively) to regulate boost. It is also unique in so far as it can generate higher pressure at the compressor exit than there is going into the turbine (normally this is only possible with ridiculously big exhaust but a VATN can generate sensible boost almost from idle!).
At the end of the day, it's a question of what you want to achieve and just how determined you are to achieve it (would you throw away the up pipe and downpipe, get custom ones made, and spend serious amounts of money on a turbo?).
FWIW, I am running an MHI TD-06/20G TD-05L hybrid with external wastegate. It has lag, ie even over the boost threshold, it takes a little time to spool up, but it has a massive compressor... it will also flow a lot of air... another installation (admittedly a 2.2) made 430 BHP at 1.4 bar boost
Hopefully it will prove as reliable as my trusty old TD-05H, and if it should go wrong, I know that it can have a new bearing kit installed, unlike IHI turbos which require a whole new core...Hope this helps,
Pat.
30 July 2001, 02:24 AM
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hi pat
very informative post there.
however i don't agree with you regarding the VF23 comment. i don't really know anything about turbos, but i do have a VF23 on a UK car MY99 and a friend of mine has got a VF22 also on a MY99 both cars are running link ecu. so i think i am qualified to say my experiences.
The VF23 is very well suited to a uk car in our experience, it spools up quicker than the vf22, if your boost control is correct you can get a really decent boost by 3500rpm i am getting at least 17psi by that time. the vf22 is usually pushing around 15psi at that time. the installation procedure is straight forward, the garage i used needed to get an adaptor of the water pipe i think, while my friend fitted his VF22 on his own and he did not need to change any thing so it was a matter of just droping the turbo in.
mikee
it really does depend on what you want to do if you want the car to be fast for the road then the vf24-28 will be perfect. if however you want big power and a car suited for the track, then a VF23/vf22 is what you want. after trying both i prefer the VF23 but i may be baised. theo, has also got one on his MY99/UNICHIP car and he is also having very good results with it.
the bigger the turbo the more power you will have, you have unichip already so you can ask PS what they think. i think they may have done few of both so they will be able to give you their experiences as well.
most conversions in OZ use a vf22, Rob jenkens have got one and he seem to be very happy with it.
i hope this helps and not add to the confusion.
sam
[This message has been edited by Sam Elassar (edited 30 July 2001).]
very informative post there.
however i don't agree with you regarding the VF23 comment. i don't really know anything about turbos, but i do have a VF23 on a UK car MY99 and a friend of mine has got a VF22 also on a MY99 both cars are running link ecu. so i think i am qualified to say my experiences.
The VF23 is very well suited to a uk car in our experience, it spools up quicker than the vf22, if your boost control is correct you can get a really decent boost by 3500rpm i am getting at least 17psi by that time. the vf22 is usually pushing around 15psi at that time. the installation procedure is straight forward, the garage i used needed to get an adaptor of the water pipe i think, while my friend fitted his VF22 on his own and he did not need to change any thing so it was a matter of just droping the turbo in.
mikee
it really does depend on what you want to do if you want the car to be fast for the road then the vf24-28 will be perfect. if however you want big power and a car suited for the track, then a VF23/vf22 is what you want. after trying both i prefer the VF23 but i may be baised. theo, has also got one on his MY99/UNICHIP car and he is also having very good results with it.
the bigger the turbo the more power you will have, you have unichip already so you can ask PS what they think. i think they may have done few of both so they will be able to give you their experiences as well.
most conversions in OZ use a vf22, Rob jenkens have got one and he seem to be very happy with it.
i hope this helps and not add to the confusion.
sam
[This message has been edited by Sam Elassar (edited 30 July 2001).]
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30 July 2001, 12:50 PM
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I have been reliably informed by steve lawson that the oil pipework I mentioned is not the problem, it is infact the oil return pipe and some of the water pipework.
pah, what do I know? not much apparently
pah, what do I know? not much apparently
30 July 2001, 04:38 PM
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Sam,
please don't get me wrong here, a VF23 WILL work on a UK car, BUT it is my personal feelig that if you're going to the effort then you might as well go the whole hog and get a VF22, especially if it's a VF22/P18 hybrid... you may wish to try a P18 on your turbo and see what difference it makes, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised
You *can* stretch the pipework to fit, and you can saw the water pipe in half, but that is a a bit of a hack. Of course if your turbo was supplied with these bits then you wouldn't have any problems at all
Jerry,
Yes the spacing between the water inlet and outlet are different, plus the distance to the oil inlet is different. Finally, I think the bolt centres for the oil drain are slightly different.
You are right about the up- and down-pipes, they are the same. But there are turbos out there (like Garrett) which will require different ones.
Cheers,
Pat.
please don't get me wrong here, a VF23 WILL work on a UK car, BUT it is my personal feelig that if you're going to the effort then you might as well go the whole hog and get a VF22, especially if it's a VF22/P18 hybrid... you may wish to try a P18 on your turbo and see what difference it makes, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised
You *can* stretch the pipework to fit, and you can saw the water pipe in half, but that is a a bit of a hack. Of course if your turbo was supplied with these bits then you wouldn't have any problems at all
Jerry,
Yes the spacing between the water inlet and outlet are different, plus the distance to the oil inlet is different. Finally, I think the bolt centres for the oil drain are slightly different.
You are right about the up- and down-pipes, they are the same. But there are turbos out there (like Garrett) which will require different ones.
Cheers,
Pat.
30 July 2001, 05:14 PM
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hi pat
so if i get a p18 exhaust housing on the vf23 will it flow more air than the VF28/24 BUT spool up as quick as the VF24/28. or at least quicker than the standard vf23 i have. will i loose at the top end ?
sam
[This message has been edited by Sam Elassar (edited 30 July 2001).]
so if i get a p18 exhaust housing on the vf23 will it flow more air than the VF28/24 BUT spool up as quick as the VF24/28. or at least quicker than the standard vf23 i have. will i loose at the top end ?
sam
[This message has been edited by Sam Elassar (edited 30 July 2001).]
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