Sam Elassar

hi there
as some of you guys know i have had a FMIC (APS) fitted around july. so this is the feed back after few months and 2 track days.

the intercooler is great and the power it is allowed me to achieve is very impressive.

the negative points now;

water temps: for road use it does not rise at all over 86 degrees no matter how much you drive, spirited motorway driving and country road driving have not produced any thing above 86 degrees.

on track however it is a different story all together. for the first 3-4 laps the temps stay at 86 degrees as usual, then it starts going up by 2-3 degrees every lap so by 10 laps you are it stabilizes at 102 degrees !!!! i know that many people do that many laps on one stint but i do.

so far i am added an extra fan as my uk car does only have one fan ( no air con) and used water wetter. the extra fan and the water wetter have helped droped temps at the low speed traffic kind of situations by about 2 degrees but have not done any change to the overall temperature reached on track.

inlet charges : temperatures are very low with the number plate on which shields most of the intercooler i get around 43-44 degrees max. with the number plate off i am getting 35-36!!!!!! that is on the same day doing the same number of laps

silicon hoses : at the beginning they seem to expand with throttle movements, now they seem to have expanded enough so they don't actually do that any more. which is a very good

i should be getting a new radiator by Pace some time next week before i do cadwell, hopefully this will help.

this is obviously only my experience and i would appreciate if some on else has got any advise. i know that there is a lot of APS intercooler have been sold here, what water temps is every one getting on track only please


sam
MY99 UK,VF23,LINK,..,.

John H

Hi Sam,
It's good to hear your updates on your car. Keep them coming..... A thought sprung to mind .Are you running an auxillary oil cooler with the APS FMIC ? Doesn't oil run at a higher temperature than the water? If so with the higher temperature differential to the ambient air I think it should be easier to remove X no. of watts of heat from the oil than the water . Hope this helps.

Best regards,

John

WREXY

Hi Sam,

Thanks for the info. So is 86 deg water temps the same as what a car with the stock intercooler gets? I have no idea, what temps the stockers run, that's why I'm asking

Let us know how you go with the Pace radiator. Hope it helps you.

Cheers,

Wrexy.

Sam Elassar

very good thinking john i have not thought of this.

i also thought of getting a air/ air cooler for the turbo water and fit it where the standard intercooler used to be.

but i thought this will be just going around the problem instead of solving it.

wrexy
my car run around 82 degrees at cruise and 86 degrees on full blast, with the standard intercooler i used to get around couple of degrees less so it is nothing major really.

any more ideas


cheers

sam

Sam Elassar

gavin
the temperatures were registered using two different types of oil. the first time i was using the mobil motor sport 15/50 and the next time i was using motul 4/40
both gave the same result really.

both fans come on at the same time, as you would expect. the fan should make a difference at cruise but doing 100 mph, you should have enough air going through anyway.

i think i will try an oil cooler first.


sam

Sam Elassar

craig
you may find that oil and water temps closely follow each other.
which oil cooler are you getting ?


sam

TopCat

Hi Sam,

I have a APS FMIC but dont have a water temp gauge, so if it helps I get oil temp of 110 pushing 150mph and over runing the Scooby sport oil..crap cant think of the name begins with "S" that's the one!

Have you removed the under tray? if not done do it really helps

I also have the mini scoops one on each side,also really helps, I checked with these before I took the undertray of.

The other day my boost was playing up hitting and holding 1.6 bar my oil temps still did not hit 120.

Lucky for me fuelling was fine(lambda link) and no knock (Knock link and EGT gauge)


Moe

Davvers

I regularly get oil to 100-110 degrees on track - standard UK 00 LINK, in that case won't the donut cooler actually start heating up the water - especially if water cooling is marginal. Might be an idea to try an oil cooler, Mocal will supply you one with an oil stat so that you don't have problems with too cool oil with normal running.

GavinP

Sam,

As already mentioned, adding an oil cooler seems to be the obvious next step. Whether you leave the existing "doughnut" cooler in the oil circuit is something to think about..

What type of oil are you using ?

From other threads, it seems that there seems to be quite a variation in pressure and temperature depending on the brand / type used - maybe worth canvassing some opinions.

I would have expected more of a difference with the fan and WW than 2 degrees C ????
Is the new fan wired to run only when the existing one does ?

Are you running with the standard radiator cap - a higher pressure one may help (assuming the system is up to it).

Thanks

Gavin

CraigH

I'm not sure of my water temps at the moment - oil went up to 115 at Donington on August bank holiday - is 80ish on normal driving.

Have just sorted out an oil cooler so will let you know the results of this.

Cheers


Craig

WREXY

Cheers Sam,

Yes I agree. From 82 to 86 is nothing. Looking good for street applications.

Thanks again for the info.

Regards,

Wrexy.

Sam Elassar

Moe
i take it you don't have the link yet .

high water temps and high oil temps are really bad news, so watch out what ever boost you decide to run at .
i was not really worried about the oil temp as i change the oil after every track day any way, but high water temps i have been told is not good for the seals and head gaskets etc..

are trying to say silklone ( not sure about the spelling here )

Sam Elassar

just spoke to my mechanic and he thinks that fitting the oil cooler might be good for the oil temps, but he does not think that it will be a good idea for the water temps. he thinks a new radiator is the way to go first before anything else.

on second thought, could the radiator be suffering a faulty thermostat ?

sam

WREXY

Hi Sam,

I remember speaking to my friend in OZ who installs and sells APS products and when I asked him if temperatures rise, he said that they had no cases of cars with increased temperatures on the road or track. I obviously don't know how true this is coz maybe he wants to sell.

I just thought of this when you mentioned about a possible faulty thermostat. I suppose you could try another thermostat and take it from there.

Cheers,

Wrexy.

Sam Elassar

thanks mark and mike for confirming what i have thought, i am running over 50% more power than standard after all so some components are obviously are not desgined to take that much abuse.

adam
are you saying that you oil temps have dropped since you got the uprated rad ?
BTW how many gauges are you planing to have ? you seem to be doubling every measurment


wrexy
the standard gauge shows no fifference between 70c and 102c !!!!!!!

Adam M

A valid question sam.

Not sure on oil temps.

They are lower now than they were, but ambient is almost ten degrees lower than it was when I was constantly checking. I had air con all the time in that weather, btu in this weather I dont.

This would mean even higher water temps, on what was a substandard rad at the time.

Oil temps do seem to sit around 90 to 95 at normal operation, and touch 100-105 on a very hard consistent blast.

You are right about gauges.

I have spa measuring pre and post intercooler charge temps using two k type thermocouples, these are for measuring intercooler efficiency.

and then the defis.

boost
oil temp
oil pressure
water temo
egt

Needless to say, it does look cool with everything lit up

Wrexy,

if you think about, water temps should rise. If not, then something isnt right. All the charge heat removed by the intercooler is now going to be incident on the radiator which is the same as standard. Radiator efficiency has to drop.

The only reason temps wouldnt be affected is if the standard rad is so good that the thermostat doesnt need to crack open very often, then after fitting a front mount the same temps can be maintained by the thermostat cracking open for longer.

Mike Tuckwood

Sam.

The increased temps are a result of the greater boost and temperatures that running a FMIC allow, hampered by the reduced air flow and the warmer air the rad now see's.

Water temperatures are pretty much what drive the Oil temps, so Uprated Rad is the way to go.

Fitting an extra fan is pointless unless overheating in town driving.... most fans 'stall' after around 30mph(ish).

Of course the best option is to fit a FMIC which comes with a higher spec rad as part of the kit to take up the slack caused by the new I/C core.

Mike.

CraigH

@ Mike

Adam M

I had noticed much higher water temps, with a front mount. If anything I think the higher the better as a measure of the efficiency of the intercooler.

Now that I know it works, I have tried to work on solving it.


The rad has come back from pace and is now about 18% larger than the previous one but still has a better and denser core.

It has as econd fan now, but as noted this only really helps when sitting in traffic. Once moving The fans can no way match the flow coming in from outside.

Mark is right that the aircon rad is a big hindrance so you are lucky in that respect.

Due to the engine being a big heatsink, energy should be constantly beig transferred between oil and water. Since they are pumped systems, they are unlikely to equalise until the pumps are switched off and the car is at rest.

Sam regardless of oil change, I am more concerned about oil breaking down during a track day rather than worrying about its longevity. Its no good replacing it after the engine has let go at >120 degrees oil temps.

I have seen my oil temps climb and get about 90 at cruise and as much as 110 on the road during the recent sweltering weather.

Now it rarely breaks 105 degres on the road.

I have ordered the defi water temp gauge though. I have also had pace make the rad with bosses either side of the core for measuring highest and lowest water temps. I think this will also feature on the production model.

I am not keen on the idea of using the space no longer occupied by the intercooler for anything other than air to air cooling, and since the intercooler has moved there isnt much more to do.

Due to the height, I am dubious about pumping oil or water to that height, and so am looking for other locations for my oil cooling. At present the 22B bumper has great big scoops for channeling air towards the breaks. I have utmost confidence in the aps ability to handle heat, so am not so concerned about putting the oil coolers in this path.

WREXY

Cheers, Mark.

That gauge is definately a worry if it didn't show that the engine was overheating from a blown head gasket. A proper temp gauge is a must then.

You can't always believe the sellers. They obviously just want to sell and can feed you with anything. I'm not saying that FMICs are no good, they are good, just that the seller doesn't always tell you everything.

That's one of the reasons why I'm glad we have the bbs. You can come on here, put up your query and get answers from people who have a tech background and also from peoples experiences. Long live the bbs!!!

Regards,

Wrexy

R19KET

Wrexy,

Most people don't have a seperate water temp gauge, and the dash gauge is cr*p. My water temps went to 118deg'C when my head gasket blew, and even this didn't show !!!!

Another point, is that cars with aircon will suffer more from a FMIC than cars without aircon, due to the extra rad' which already restricts flow.

An oil cooler "will help", to some extent, but only by a few deg'. An uprated rad', is ultimately the way to go.

It's also worth spending some time shrouding the gap/gaps between the rad'/rad's, and IC (so that the air is funneled through, and can't escape out the sides).

Mark.

WREXY

Sam,

That is slack stuff from Subaru. Not fitting at least a half decent temperature gauge, for such a performance engine. You'd think they want our engines to blow. With the amount we pay for these cars, we should not have to fork out more cash to monitor temperatures. Unfortunately we have to, otherwise a repair bill will be much more.

Cheers Adam,

Makes sense to me.

Regards,

Wrexy

RobJenks

Sam,

There is an out-fit in Melbourne promoting an electric water pump - in lieu of the standard mechanically driven pump.
It may aid your over heating problem.
Basic kit costs A$280 thats about 90 quid at todays rates.

RobJenks

Sorry sam forgot an e.

Sam Elassar

hi rob
how are you mate, so what are you getting done next then ?

i have had a look at this option as well, but i think autospeed tried it and found very little difference.

another question for all of you knowledgeable people out there, can the standard water pump handle the increased capacity of the bigger rad ? how big can you go ?


cheers


sam

RobJenks

Sam,

Have you considered water spray onto your FMIC?

I know it will not remove heat directly from your radiator, but it may, indirectly.

I'm getting a FMIC soon -they are a favoured modification here in Oz.So I'm surprised you are experiencing this problem in a more temperate climate.
Maybe the rads fitted here are larger to cope with the higher ambient temperatures?

spurner

APS use a Bar & Plate FMIC IIRC.

These can restrict air-flow many times more than a tube & fin IC. Maybe this can cause insufficient aiflow onto the radiator?

CraigH

APS Intercoolers are tube and fin.

Unless a "proper" bar and plate core is used (ala WRC spec - although this would be nice for road use, not sure most owners would want to stump up the cash!!)), they are not as efficient as a good tube and fin.