RB5_245

Ok So I'm a little bored and will probably ignore all of your advice/opinions and buy a momo stainless steel magic tree instead but....

What's the opinion here, I'm a bit lower on cash than expected so i have a choice, headers or FMIC.

I think it's going to have to be TSL's headers (un-equal length ) although still open to suggestion, or it's going to be a pace/aps front mount.

The spec is:

MY99 Uk
GEMS Ecu (1.3 bar of boost)
HKS induction kit
Full magnex de-cat
TD05/06 20G
Aquamist WI
550cc Injectors
Uprated fuel p/p and FPR
APS top mount intercooler.

I'm tempted to go for the headers, coz keeping with the TMIC and WI should make for a blisteringly quick car (though i am a little worried about what sort of revs it'll pick up at).

But then again i wouldn't mins seeing just how far i can go with a top mount....

However switching to a front mount shouldn't be too bad, as anti-lag should take car of most of the problems there.

I'm pretty much 50/50 split on the whole thing so any opinion is welcome.

Actually I'm still running a Uk 5speed so lets hope that doesn't break first!!

Cheers Dave.

Adam M

dont bother with the pace fmic. trust me on this one (my car is the one from their site used to develop it in the beginning.

If you don't have air con, I would only go for the one mark aigin has had made under the name of lateral performance. My opinion was based only on the difference it made to my power output on the dyno.

After that I would only consider hks, aps, or for real value the hybrid one arranged by harvey in the group buys.

I would go for the fmic before the headers, and consider porting your headers at the same time as this alone acieves lots and costs nothing.

Don't worry about lag from a fmic, especially with the very short pipework on the lateral core. Having said that even with the much longer aps or hks pipework, I would be surprised if the increased lag is even noticable.

RB5_245

Hybrid, I wouldn't consider because i think the core volume is too big! (could be wrong and may eat my socks on this one)

HKS, Tube and fin mate...... nah!

APS, looking the most likely.

Any specs on the lateral one? core volume? design? construction?

To be honest i don't like the header design on any of the scoob intercoolers, i assume it must be this way for fitting though.

Does anyone know if there is air flow channeling fins inside any of these? (I would assume all of them but can't be sure)

Dave.

Andy.F

Do you mean internal fins on the tubes ? Or plates to channel the flow equally across the core area ?

You could always make your own using std cores and gasflow it internally, design your own low volume end tanks and optimum pipe runs ? Not as difficult as it may sound.

Andy

GBruce

Adam,

What are the reasons to avoid the Pace FMIC if you don't mind me asking, as I was considering one of these myself for my 98 uk car (with aircon)

The others on the list were HKS and APS, i've ruled out the hybrid because of the amount of bumper etc that has to be cut away. Would like it to be as neat and tidy as possible and be able to return car to standard spec if required without too much hassle.

Thanks


George

M0NEY

I would go for FMIC

Think you may have troubles running anti lag with the TD05/06. Was going to do it on mine and Andy wasnt sure how much anti lag the turbo could take (but said he would help out if anything goes wrong)

Ive got gruppe S headers on mine but if i was choosing again, i would probably get some HKS ones or GT Spec ones

T-uk

get the car to crail on sunday and see how it does

I have not been in your car since the gems but would assume it will be nice with the tmic and standard headers. changing both these will increase spool/lag and it does become noticeable on a 7k rev limit , it is not a problem on a sti unit but with a UK I think there is a point where an increase of 50bhp at the top end is worth less in the real world.

with the w/i you could also consider a larger scoop from DRM, this should force a bit more air through the cooler.

AlanG

The thing with anti-lag is i feel it's not really much use on a road car (for everday use) what with going on throttle/off throttle /on throttle etc when you give it some stick on the back roads.

Antilag only works on vacuum (state the obvious Alan...), so when you start to spool up it doesn't do anything as your car is creating boost.
Now, on track, you will be, for the majority of the time, on full throttle (antilag isn't doing anything at this point). You will only be in vacuum for the duration of braking for the bends, so use of antilag is minimal and hence not so detrimental to the turbo.
On the open road though, you will be in vacuum far more often than you think, so due to how antilag works, your egt's will rise to quite a high, possibly dangerous level which can affect the life of the turbo's.

If you've got antilag, get the car idling, switch on the antilag and see how quick you start to see that lovely warm glow of red hot metal on your manifold/up-pipe etc..

Alan

Andy.F

Andy makes a note on Alans warranty sheet

AlanG

LOL

Oops, did i say that?

Put it down to a development process...

harvey

iTrader: (48)

I agree with Alan that anti-lag has little relevance to road driving.
Why not pole the guys who have fitted a Hybrid FMIC and get their reactions. Might help your decision making. Delivered, after customs and VAT for £500 it is half the price of some others and a very capable piece of kit. cooler charge temps = greater engine safety.
This bit about noticably more lag on a good FMIC set up is another Scooby myth IMHO.

On the other hand the Gruppe 'S' headers with up-pipe are available for 400$ plus delivery plus import duty etc and the bigger turbo supports them well. Even if the spool is 200-300 further up the rev range, in my experience, the extra power far outweighs the slightly dalayed spool.
But then more power = higher charge temperatures.

RB5_245

Cheers guys, T-uk, see you on sunday

I think I'm going to port the OEM headers then see how it goes from there. The car is a dream to drive on backroads at the moment and i really don't want to ruin that.

Dave.

The Fixer

If you do decide on headers I think you would be better off with proven versions like Gruppe-S or HKS (They are down as equal length but actually arent) rather than the TSL copies which are expensive. I got my Gruppe-S from the states as Harvey mentioned, quality is excellent although flange needs a bit of work to get level and thus avoid leaks. I can also vouch for the APS FMIC kit as I had one on my car and believe Harvey does to (his results speak volumes for the effectiveness of even the APS DR500).

I personally in your position would port the headers and match them to the uppipe, match the up-pipe to the turbo and then get the FMIC. Cooler charge will give more power and safety margin.

Conrad

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

Got one tucked under my bonnet..

Beer can test


I need a Samco sponsership deal!




JGM

Pavlo

fmic no question

T-uk

iirc john banks found a spool increase of 200rpm with a fmic , this I would say by itself is bearable but with a couple of hundred for headers also ,things start to feel peaky IMO with only a 7k redline.

I know I did not like my car with the "big bore" gruppe-s headers , especially in second gear. replacing them with the smaller bore version brought it back down about 200rpm.

I think the big bore set might have been worth 20bhp more but I would not swap back , I much prefer the all round balance I have now.

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

if you just want to make your car go quicker, if your car is not mapped for the water injection pull the fuse on that and it makes a huge difference in torque, i can really tell the difference in pull if i reconnect the water injection as my car isnt mapped for it either

AlanG

Would it not be fair to say that choice of manifold/up-pipe bore size would be dependant on target horsepower you're aiming to achieve?
In your case with your targets, you were better off with the smaller bore size to maximise benefits of the mods, in other words, use the minimum you can get away with, but if somebody was aiming for say 500 BHP, they would be better off with the larger bore size due to volume of exhaust gasses going through them?

A bit like having for example big injectors. Why have them if a smaller size will do the same job?

carlos_hiraoka

Dave (RB5_245) if don't take your car to track days, and use it mainly for "fun" road driving I would go for the headers .....

BTW switch on the ALS, and you will have no brakes as servo will not work

Carlos H.

RB5_245

LOL, I've heard that before. FYI with anti-lag on, my brakes still work

Also coming out of a 2nd/3rd gear corner, the difference it makes is phenominal!
Given the above comments use will be severly restricted though

Andy, what i ment was internal plates equalising the flow across the whole core. If you notice all (that i've seen) scooby front mounts have both inlet and outlet at the bottom of the respective header.

T-uk, it was the small bore grouppe-s headers you had when i drove your car wasn't it?

IIRC our cars are now very similar, although i think i'm a little down on power.

Dave.

BTW Carlos, my car has no brakes anyway, als or not, new set of discs warped(i reckon) in one day and pads shot courtesy of knockhill

Andy.F

Yes, I know what you mean Dave, all these mass produced intercoolers have there limitations. I think they rely on the pressure drop across the core forcing the flow through the upper tubes ! Most of these long, narrow intercoolers are dropping around 1 - 1.5 psi at 350 bhp.
I suggest you make your own vertical flow job or consider a pre TMIC charge cooler ??

Andy

AlanG

Is the pressure drop on front mounts more prevalent on those with entry/exit points which are facing the direction of travel? i.e. horizontal entry into and out of intercoolers, whereas some enter and exit at an angle to the cooler?

T-uk

is that the new target alan , 500bhp from a UK unit

if I had a sti unit I would use the larger bore set as I feel the rev limit can support it , then again I would have a bigger turbo too.

do you run a higher rev limit? , should be interesting when we get the cars together at k/hill or crail at some point , might end up eating my words

dave,

yes car was running the smaller bore set. my car has surprised me a bit with it's output at Star. I had thought when we slugged/cut the boost up to 4500rpm that the car had lost some top end too but it recorded 340bhp at star , running 1.25bar peak and 1.2bar at peak power . the clutch is still holding fine like this but when it fails I will get back to 1.4bar in the mid , this should get my torque back.

I think this weekend will kill of the clutch. I am trying some new tyres as my 60foot times are crap. they are 215/45r17 so might be a bit big for my power but should get me under 2seconds for the 60foot. I do not think the clutch will like them though. I am glad to see the back of those fuldas though. if the clutch is holding I might fit the dawes and up the boost but I think the clutch will **** itself again at 1.4bar , although last time it did last long enough for mapping so I might get a few runs.

AlanG

LOL. If only funds could support it John.

Family commitments come first now.
Have you done comparisons between small and large bore pipes with no other changes to see what difference they make?

Keigo

If you want a header, i have a HKS stainless steel one for sale - brand new £600 plus postage. If you want it, let me know by e mail - keigokato@hotmail.com

AlanG

In terms of power output (over the whole graph)?

AlanG

Meant to say i run a limit of 72/7300rpm John but that's more down to me being greedy!!

Adam M

Alan,

my engine will be on the engine dyno hopefully next week some time.

I have prepared two sets of headers, thanks to christian! one hks and one H and S.

These will be compared one after the other. The HKS has larger primaries at 1 5/8" whereas the H and S is 1.5".

On the last run, the H and S managed 568bhp @ 7200 (I think) whereas the HKS was still climbing at 567bhp @ 5200 before the engine blew. Sadly I didn't try any headers with smaller primaries, most notably the MRT headers, though even with tiny primaries, seem to work incredibly.

AlanG

Do both headers you're going to use Adam have the same primary lengths? or are they different?

Are they same configuration i.e. 4<2<1 or 4<1 etc?

RB5_245

340bhp @ 1.25bar

Very impressive mate. Are you still running with the Nur spec exhaust, or did you get that magnex one eventually?

The headers must be doing a good job @ that power.

Dave