Hi all,

Was just a little curious about this Advance Multiplier

From what I can gather from posts in here and replys concerning my DD logs etc it seems that unless you are running at an Advance Multiplier of 16 then your car is is not mapped correctly or not receiving the correct fuel etc (even if you are on the OEM ecu) ?

Is it better to have your ecu mapped to the point where you run an Advance Multiplier of 16 and pullback the timing, increase richness and decrease boost until you can run a constant 16 on the AM ? I guess what I am saying is will your car be faster and more responsive through the whole rev range etc if you concentrate on getting that 16 AM and compromise other factors such as such as boost, timing etc ?

Finally, if your car senses something is not quite right and AM drops from the 16 down to 8 lets say, will it stay at 8 no matter how good of fuel etc you put in or how much you lower the intake temps until the ecu is reset.....basically is the AM fixed to the low point and doesn't learn / adjust continously ?

Cheers,
Ray

 

bttt

 

Its a pretty complex subject and, to some degree, a matter of choice when mapping as to what level you set it, I'm putting together a mail for you, an advance multiplier of 11 is not an issue if the overall timing map is set accordingly, for example you could allow a car to run at 11 on 97 ron and then it would ramp up to a higher value if booster/higher ron fuel was used.

The car checks "condition" everytime you load it up and fine adjusts every time, if it see's it can advance or retard more than a certain amount it then kicks up or down accordingly. The ecu has base, course learning and fine learning all of which have to be factored to gether to get overall timing, you could run a 16 multiplier all the time and have no better timing profiule than a different set of maps at 11.

It fine learns very locally, if it changes the advance multilplier the whole area covered by the course learning map is adjusted by a factor of the number of 16th's it move.


as some initial prelude to mail

bob

 

Hi Bob,

Big thanks for that response I will await your mail.

Cheers,
Ray

 

I'm sure Bobs email will cover it but if you are continually running with an AM of 16 then you are not using the ECU to the limit of its capabilities. At AM16 you no longer have active advance to take advantage of fuel octane or other performance contributing factors.

Andy

 

OK, I am feeling better then becuase I may want to drop in some 103 octane (MON) everynow and then for track etc and I assume that if I am running a 8 - 12 AM area then it will adjust up nicely to the 16 area when this fuel is introduced

Anyway, I am jumping the gun here, my main goal is to get my car det free and safe (as can be expected from a slightly modded car) but also taking advantage of my catless turbo back zorst anduprated fuel pump....my goals are as low down as possible spool up with about 300 - 320 bhp

For now I am going to just shove back in the OEM ecu which will hopefully make the KL calm down until I can get a remmap of my remmap

Cheers,
Ray

 

Bob, do larger numbers in the correction map(s) with corrresponding lower numbers in the base map(s) (to give the same total) influence knock sensitivity or just authority?

Since Flash99v2 and being able to change the load zones for knock control I have a reasonably working system even with the larger bores - runs 16 on methanol 10%, goes down to 6 on NUL. Just copes LOL, but wouldn't want to thrash it.

 

The conditions under which a car is mapped should determine what advance multiplier the tuner aims at .... as I said its all about headroom and different tuners will have different views and methods..

Andy the oem ecu's take far longer to advance back than pull down so its not quite that simple, for example you could be running a low(ish) adm, change to 106 ron fuel and it could not move at all for many actual miles of running until the fine learning has moved enough to trip it, thats about incremental settings. So it can't be used to allow "map switch" type activity from its own algorythms.

8 is the average setting and should be avoided, very close to boost drop settings at that.


bob

 

Interesting Bob, within a minute of putting in 54 litres Optimax and 5 litres of methanol, the IAM had gone from 6 to 16. However, it hadn't been long at 6 - just a test as an emergency fill up- maybe it hadn't done much fine learning by then?

 

This is so interesting, even if a little over my head

I am going to change the fuel filter on my car today (only 17,000 miles on the tach) should I do it ?

I was thinking about changing the plugs again as well but not sure if they are bad....the new OEM replacement plugs have only been in for about 5 - 8k miles and I have no hesitation at all, yes, I have some pops, hisses and a few light bangs but then again I have zero cats or silencers, only a straight pipe from turbo back with scoobysport back box ? Can the plugs be bad but you still have smooth acceleration up to redline ?

Cheers,
Ray

PS: I am thinking about order one of the STI panel filters everyone is raving about....will this make my situation worse as more air coming in and potential for car to run leaner ?

 

bttt thoughts before I begin the above swaps ?

 

Can't see the STi panel filter being a problem - the MAF should pick up the correct airflow.

Plugs sound OK, but checking is easy.

 

Hi John,

Yea I used to check the plugs easy on my Mitsubishi Eclipse GST (similar engine layout to the evo) but don't you have to jack the scooby up to get to the plugs ?

Cheers,
Ray

PS: You think I should make the swap back to the OEM ecu and see what AM I get and also to see if the KL keeps lighting up like a Christmas tree ?

 

bttt

 

bttt

 

John, again be careful not to mix up the ecu's, Ray has a new age you are talking about a MY99-00 which is, of course different, and reacts differently and in a cruder manner.

I try and stick to the technology at hand if you see what I mean, what you say is correct for a GC8 ecu, they do react very quickly however it must have been reasonably recently flashed to pop back at that, 6 is bordering on boost drop btw and would have been on the low det maps at that I think so attention to those is needed at that level.

As for maf picking up correct air flow that depends whats in the map doesn't it ? Maf will generate a higher voltage output you mean, what is then at the corresponding map point is only what was put there by the tuner.

Did a car yesterday that arrived on the std ecu maps with decat and normal air box but running adm of 11 with up to 4 degrees positive fine learning on top, you could say it was "unhappy" however it had merely reacted to an event and was working its way back (new age).

bob

 

hi guys,

Ok, so how does one do a quick check of the plugs ?

Why is the KL still showing det (red light an all) under WOT and above 5k rpms and the AM still showing 8, shouldn't the car sense this det and pull back teh AM even more until it doesn't detect det anymore or does this mean that the stock sensor may not be picking up the det that the KL is ?

Cheers,
Ray

Bob I know you are a busy man but anxiously awaiting your email Thanks

 

Ray, changing plugs isn't too bad. You just need to take out the airbox on one side and the washer bottle on the other.

It is pretty tight, but doesn't take too long if you have a good extension with a universal joint and a good plug socket.

Do you have the service manual PDF? - It has step by step on this + removing the intercooler etc.

 

Hi Bret,

How do I get a hold of that service manual PDF ?

Cheers,
Ray

 

I'll drop you an email.

 

They are downloadable from techinfo.subaru.com for a subscription/fee.

 

hey thx

 

I map my Denso's to run AM16 - it takes too long to learn up the scale (ie; when using methanol) to make it of any great benefit. It seems to get stuck in a rut if you force it to run lower AM's, and actually relearns slower from AM11 or 12, than an ECU reset back to 8 would take to get to 16.

The classics confuse me, and I prefer that knock correction is silent in all but the worst cases....and my high det maps have less timing than the lo-det ones

Richard

 

ok,

so you are saying map the JDM STi-7's with denso ecu's to run a AM 16 under worst case conditions and if better fuel or colder weather comes around live with the minor improvements....sounds logical to me but then again I don't really know squat about mapping

Cheers,
Ray

 

Ray, IMHO and limited tuning experience, I think the Bugeye JDM maps are too far advanced in the midrange for 98 fuel and 30deg ambient temps.

At load 4.7 (approx 1.25bar boost) and 4800rpm, AM 16 gives you about 33deg BTDC. Go up to load 5 (approx 1.4bar boost), AM 16 gives you 31deg BTDC.

For comparison's sake, a 220hp export WRX's ECU will be well under 20deg BTDC at 1.25bar similar RPMs. I'm not sure how you want to approach it, certainly lowering it too much would cause a huge drop in mid-range torque. But on the flip side, whats the point of seeing the big-red every time you hit 1.3bar?

My guess is that the solution lies somewhere in the middle. Given your 98 fuel and high air temps, perhaps you could get a tuner to bring down your mid range AM 16 timing to a more rational 25-27deg, and then smooth out the rest of the map from there.

 

Thanks for the post RT,

So what you are saying is that even the stock JDM OEM ecu has too much timing advance in the mid range ?

For all the mapping experts:

Is it possible to run a 'safe' (no det on the KL) 300 bhp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque with a proper remap of my JDM STI-7 on 98 RON gas and 30 degree C ambient temps with 90% humidity, full scoobysport inner diameter 2.5" turbo back decat, STI panel filter and uprated walbro 255 (?) fuel pump ?

I was hoping for around 320 bhp and torque but I would be happy with a safe 300 / 300 if possible

Please advise me or your best guestimate.

Thanks again everyone for all of your help....sorry to be such a pain but its hard when there are no experienced Subaru tuners here where I can just drop the car off, pay some money and have my goals sorted....

Cheers,
Ray

 

Ray I think its possible. What I'd do if I were in your shoes, is to approach a tuner and pay for a trip down to where you are to tune the car there. Its not easy to "remote tune" a car, your conditions and fuel quality are different from whats in the UK. You will never get it quite opitmised, if you keep doing a by-mail map.

As for the 300hp and 300lbft, it is doable yes, but not the "JDM way" I don't think. The "JDM way" seems to be moderate boost (1.4bar) mega timing in the mid range, which MAY work for 15degC and 100RON. You *should* be able to run less timing and hold boost higher in the rpm range, which should give you your power and torque.

 

Hi RT,

I would love to have someone come out and map it here but I really don't think there are any mappers in the USA that have experience with the JDM STI-7 ecu and car etc and not sure I could afford to fly in a mapper from the UK and put them up for several days etc, that is if one of them was even willing to come all this way.....not only that I am worried that they would need some part or something that we couldn't get locally....I think I am gonna have to just go for a conservative mail in map and hope for 300 / 300 if at all possible...

Cheers,
Ray

 

I don't think that a 30 degree ambient is a big issue, timing in the mid range is always going to be sensitive but its not temp related as charge temps are not ramping that fast and ... the big intercooler on these cars is VERY effective especially in that area.

With the air box on during a hard fourth gear run then temps are likely to rise by about 12-15 degrees, not exactly high. On cruise charge would be one degree above ambient, with induction on cruise temps would be 2-3 degrees above ambient with a similar rise on a fourth gear run. That dependant on what boost levels etc are mapped in.

Rays problem is that he has a UK ecu upgrade and it just shows how specific these cars are.

bob

bob

 

I think 300/300 should be possible. The local tuners here in South Africa get these figures on UK/OZ STis with EcuTek and Decat. We do see >30C often in summer and pump fuel is 93RON which we usually spike to 98RON with racing fuel. This is said to be safe on 98RON with more power available with additonal mods. The only question is how sure are you of the quality of your fuel?