chrome

Just thinking ahead.. just in case my Ej20 goes bye bye this year..

I'm keen on the idea of a 2.33, with it being a lot more 'revvy' than a 2.5US block and yet it has potential for similar torque levels..
what would I need to spec a well sorted and more importantly a spec that will ensure longevity of said engine??
ballpark pricings with any info you add would be helpful

please add to the list/edit what I've put if Im going wrong;

Er, to start:

EJ22

no idea where to start with these other essentials:

stroker kit (which one?)
cams?
shims?
pistons?
rods?
gaskets?

anything I missed above that is essential to a scoob engine

All help/advice/thoughts appreciated as per usual

john banks

IMHO, just buy a built one from Crawford. It will run far higher torque than what would blow up an EJ257. But if you only want 400/400, the EJ257 is the value choice. Revs will of course need posher valvetrain.

David_Wallis

Get yourself an EJ22T Block, an EJ257 Crank, uprated bearings, Rods, Pistons, Decent gaskets, sti3 /4 / 5 / 6 / P1 / bug eye heads ported & polished with modified cams..
Oil pump, New turbo.

You know which supplier I'd recommend.. and youd be looking at plenty of other bits needed, budget a minimum of 5k, realistically 8k

David

chrome

I'm John- thanks for the recommendation.

David- again; thanks. Care to elaborate on the 'other bits' ?


To John/David/everyone-
Any particular rods/pistons/bearings/gaskets to recommend?

chrome

oh- why EJ257 crank? I
I'm not trying to be argumentative- I just dont know the reasons why thats all

john banks

Slinging an EJ257 in with limited ambition (IMHO should take anything a stock EJ20 would take with reliability and more torque) would just need the assembled short motor £1300, headgaskets £120, oil & coolant, inlet and exhaust manifold gaskets, up & downpipe gaskets, timing belt and oil pump usually sensible, assuming your EJ20 bits haven't blown up, if so new oil "cooler" and anything else damaged as well. You could be all done for about £2000 if you get good labour rates.

EJ257 crank for a 4mm longer stroke

chrome

Is limited amibiton circa 400/400?

crikey- that does sound cheap. (thigns being relative)

Is that a real world cost? (ie: sourcing all parts myself for example as opposed to letting a place that is going to fit it all 'buy' on my behalf?)
Or more a ballpark figure?

Mind you- suppose an MD305 on a Ej257 might strangle the potential. so add a new turbo to that too I suppose.

If the 2k is a genuine figure; it sure would leave a lot of left over cash for a gearbox (which you just KNOW would be needed) ! LOL

Whats the current 'benchmark' for amount of boost being run on a 2.5?
I understand a 2.33 can take far more? How is that?
please educate me

john banks

400/400 is my opinion so far, as few others have publicised their experiences or opinions of the EJ257 on the boards.

It was a ballpark figure, if you can get good labour rates or do it yourself, or with the help of a talented friend etc.

The only things changed from my up to 406 BHP UK EJ20 setup were to add a manifold, change from 550 to 740cc injectors (which I need not have done), and eventually change the turbo (which I don't think I should've done). Nothing else has really changed apart from say using a better FPR, better suspension, AVC-R etc.

MD305 would be OK on the EJ257, very driveable.

The biggest issue is a gearbox if you are running a UK 5 speed.... how about a PPG 3-4 gear upgrade? Pavlo has had success with this, not sure if UK box though.

Boost... I blew up the headgaskets running 1.7 bar with methanol on a 20G, and then did the same plus a piston with the P450. P20SPD's gaskets went at about 1.6 bar on a GT30R. I now have a "high" boost setting of 1.4 bar which I think is as close to the edge as I'd want to get, but 90% of the time it runs at 1.3 peak, 1.2-1.25 held, I reckon it is about 400/380 on the latter, about 440/420 on the higher setting, all on Optimax, certainly it eats FQ320, WR1 quite easily, nothing has got close, but I need to grow up and not race things, just not safe. I think the headgasket clamping area is compromised for high cylinder pressures on the EJ257, the pistons are brittle, the liners are thin, and the bore walls are not well supported, some think they can fix these issues, but I think high power EJ257s are a time bomb for the ambitious. The 2.33 is based on a closed deck block and seems to hold its gaskets, although because of different suppliers and specs, and relying on "humans" to do so many things there are multiple stages to go wrong. The EJ257 is just a short block swap, still potential for **** ups, but far less so. I had no idea what I was getting into when I went for my first 2.33, I pulled out a perfectly good EJ20 which is still going strong because I thought it would blow up, I replaced it with multiple failures of posher motors.

RON

So John, excuse me for butting in, but are you saying that it's feasible to run a stock 2.5 with all the bit's off a stock 2 ltr, and then get it mapped, I thought that turbo etc 'had' to be changed, maybe i'm just stupid though eh!!

john banks

Nothing has to be changed at all if you remap it and run the same power and torque - just run lower boost. You won't make the full potential, but if like me you were stretching the realistic power band of the 2.0 a bit by using a turbo and other components of generous spec, then there may be little to do. The real big nasty issue is popping the gearbox from the massive torque you'll get even with the same turbo without really trying.

Within an hour or two of getting my car back with the EJ257 in, it was running silly torque without even trying That is the only thing the EJ257 is really class at, but it does make it nice on the road.

chrome

lessons to be learned from you then John (and Paul/DavidW/DavidT/Steven etc etc

Surprised about the turbo- but good news

wrt to the block- (Ej257) so you were approx 400/400 running 1.7 bar?
Interesting observations about the 2.5 block.

Has anyone fathomed a confirmed way to sort the weaknesses out that you mention? -
thin liners (re-line ?)
brittle pistons (put in better pistons and rods?)
bore walls (um dunno how that could be resolved maybe better asked on 22b?)

Noted about the gearbox.. It IS my biggest liability I think.
Interested in the PPG kit- need more info on it; I will do some research and probably ask Paul for his thoughts also.

maybe just a CDB 2l with high quality rods/pistons and better bearings?

john banks

I think about 480/460 at 1.7 bar, incredibly fast, passed T-uk's 340 BHP TD05 EJ20 setup like he was standing still, which we both enjoyed whilst it lasted

David_Wallis

I have no problems with my 2.33

it is taking 2 bar without too many problems.. just welded up the cracked inlet manifold.. so when thats back on I should be in business again

Also need to ditch the fooking stupid inlet spacers.. more trouble than they are worth!

David

RON

Thanks john!

chrome

David - how much day to 'maintenance' does the 2.33 need?
I know you like to tweak the car and improve things, but in terms of sheer upkeep how much grief is it?
I know Trout has had some issues and I lack a lot of the 'hands on experience' that even trout has, let alone to compare to yer good self

so in your opinion would a 2.33 be a PITA for a regular joe like me with no easy acces to ramps/welding geat etc to upkeep on a DIY basis?

T-uk

david,

not wanting to sound a ba5tard but how many miles has your car really done? it has been running since TOTB2 , where you did a great job to run on the day but appart from TOTB3 I do not recall of it at any other events. compared to the time scale with paul ans andy your lagging some way behind for being the longest runner. due to this,trouts and marks own car I would agree with jb on crawford

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

John(t-uk), when you see how much "other" work david actually does, you will understand the stupid timescales he ends up with, he simply does everything for everyone else 1st.

Secondly, think how much it costs for you to insure your scoob, then think how much it costs for someone who is still only 25, has been banned twice, and has all these modifications???

You may recall it was ready and running for Scooby shoot out 2004, several people saw it running, it just decided to hoover the M62 the night before

Anyway, wont dwell on that, but the 2.33 is a very tractable car and i sometimes wish i went down that route, but i didnt!

Brad, if i were you, and knowing your mechanical abilities, i would seriously suggest that you simpley found yourself a 6 speed box 1st, then obtain a ej257 short block and then swap things over and remap it. Dont change anything else on your car, at all.

You WILL spoil a good day to day car if you go above 400/400 IMO, look how many out there are actually daily drivers? Johns is the only one i can think of to hand.

The car would be so driveable, it would be unbelievable, i wish i had tried the 304 on my 257, the boost threshold would have been hilarious

Anyways, when your up for changing the engine, let us know, and similar timescale to before should cover the engine change and box change, without necessity to rush.

Final piece of advice, change it before it goes pop, as when it goes pop, it will damage so many parts you wont imagine (voice of experience).

steven

chrome

PMSL.. I know- not much although have gotten better of late
I didnt realise the 304/5 was a definate viability on a 2.5L.
Thanks for the fitting offer mate..
That was kind of my point. I know of a couple of cars where similar has happened. Although I am also interested to know if anyone has really pushed a UK car beyond your own Steven. I haven't hear of any.. only imports that are well beyond 300/300

thanks for the quality advice everyone.

john banks

Look for UK cars running 20G turbos or Garrett/P20 hybrids, there have been a few of each running over 400. AlanG and I were both over 400 on 20Gs with 99/00 UK engines. But I only did about 15000 miles on biggish turbos, I think Steven did a lot more. I didn't think it would last, but to be fair after the gearbox popped I thought I may as well do an engine to make the most of what I thought was the most sturdy daily driver gearbox available, so the 450/400 plans started. Once I knew a new engine was coming I got brave with the old one. It was only then that I starting pushing over 350 BHP in an NF fuelled frenzy

Floyd

iTrader: (9)

So David, what issues have you had with spacers or is it down to big boost?

F

chrome

of course john..- yourself and AlanG..
silly me.

im nearing 15kmiles this last year myself in current spec (ish)

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

did about 40k miles with my 2.0l, which took an unbelievable amount of abuse.

Floyd, i saw davids spacers the other day, off the car, they were 2 x 10mm spacers bonded together on each side of the inlet, making 20mm.They looked more like a banana then a flat piece of material, and i wonder if that contributed to the cracked inlet.

I think mine are also suffering the same problem.

Brad, seriously, the 305 would be good on the 2.5, VERY good.

theotherphil

OK, just to get this clear. I have a UK MY95 with some mods allready (detailed below). Am I right in thinking I'd just need the 2.5 short block and ancillaries (and probably a different box) and all of my bits should bolt up and work fine with a re-map (bar maybe an injector and MAF sensor change)? I am only after a flexibly quick, reliable daily driver. Would the std TD05 be adequate or would the 20g be needed?

Mods:
K&N Panel filter, resonator removed
MRT Inlet Plenum pipe
Walbro pump and FSE reg
3" Revolution de-cat dp and system
Scoobyclinic clutch and Fidanza 4.2KG flywheel
AVOTurbo TMIC
Apexi Power FC and Apexi boost control kit

chrome

niec to know I dont need to budget for another turbo then

how are you finding the 2.5 Steven?
Any head gasket issues?
Is it due to running lots of boost through it?
are oil temps still much higher? - oil cooler is a must I assume with a 2.5?

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Brad, havent driven it since 2nd October 2004, engine is still out, due to probable head gasket issues, but i was throwing some boost at it.

See above re head gaskets

See above

Oil temps were fine latterly, it was only at SSO 2 that oil temps went really balistic, 120 degreees.

As for driving, its superb and so torquey, its great.

Imagine having what you have now, but with a lot more torque, and something like 1000+ rpm lower in the rev range.

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Phil, pretty much yes, nothing else major needed IMO.

theotherphil

Excellent, thanks. This years round of mods has just taken a new twist

David_Wallis

T-UK..

Its done a few thousand.. not many!..

But Im having lots of teething problems with it.. Just remember Im nota mechanic, engineer or have years of experience with tuning of engines something other people have on their side.. I also dont have loads of money behind me.. and I certainly dont have patience on my side..

As I said last year.. Im not up for showing the car off at events... I want to run it this year and it will be competitive.. It should be better than andy's in theory.. But its yet to do the business...

I have recently...

95% Fitted AVC-R
95% Finished WBand to run with ECU
Fitted 4x Dunlop D01J's
Fixed Cracked inlet manifold.. need to port inside again.

Still Need to..

Refit Inlet Manifold.
Fit EGT Guage
Sort Cooling Fan Probs (Water Temp Prob)
Get Cord to do Geometry
Rewire Fuel Pumps.. Leaning out at 180+ due to voltage dropping at pumps.
Remake some more spacers from 20mm GF Nylon 66

Then as you say Im need to catch up by tinkering with the map daily, and then investigate using more exotic fuels... My car has never run on anything other than petrol..

totb2 was on plain unleaded! totb3 on just optimax.

David

AlanG

Could have fooled me with the work you've done on yours and others...

David_Wallis

Well yeah... but Im not! Ie I dont do this for a living... I get to play with nice expensive servers and software instead.. theres not many parts that I can bring home.. unlike you brewery lot!!!