bigscottyboy

Was thinking about getting one but,when i phoned Collins Motorsport (who sell Forge Intercoolers) they recon that they are no good for scoobs and that id be better with an uprated top mount,i recon this is pish,fair enough there will be more turbo lag,but when it does spool up it will be a hell of a lot faster and will be better overall for engine temps,or am i way off?

SamUK

iTrader: (1)

Speak to Harvey....


--Sam

dazc

An uprated top mount will still suffer the same heat soak that a std intercooler will. Scoob is a poor design with top mount IC right above (very hot) turbo. I have a PACE FMIC and it drastically lowers the inlet temps to a constant temp from which mappers like to do their tuning. (safely)

Stop in traffic after a fast run with a top mount, and the heat soak is terrible. The coldest place on the car is right at the front. Extra lag is hardly noticeable, and IC is much bigger too.

Check out PACE's website, and have a look at the graph and short explanation. All will become clear, I think theyre worth weight in gold.

http://www.paceproducts.co.uk/automotive-parts.shtml

coulty

Personally i wouldn't touch pace with a bargepole. You need a decent fmic and the pace just does not cut it above 400bhp. I have an HKS fmic and makes the pace look like an oil cooler.

coulty

dazc

Hks look pants, great for lag.
Most indirect routing ever.

Jap performance mag this month, PACE FMIC 400bhp, 400lb/ft.
Nuff said I think. Daz

coulty

I don't have a problem with lag on mine. I know from most of the big power contingent on sn that the pace is pants and that the Lateral, HKS, APS and Hybrid are the ones to have.

Pace are still pants IMHO.

Tone Loc

iTrader: (1)

I'd ask Adam M (who's car was used to design the pace on) and respected mappers such as Bob Rawle what they think of the Pace. Yes it can produce those numbers, but producing numbers doesn't mean everything. I have seen 333bhp produced on the pre97 TMIC . Another example is the OEM headers, these can be used on cars producing 400bhp, but are the headers better than the likes of GruppeS/HKS etc. No. Just 'cos it produces numbers doesn't mean it does it in the most efficient and best way.

I'd stay away from Pace as said above. Far better products avaliable and most are cheaper too!!

Tony.

Dark Blue Mark

Bigscotty,

It depend what power you are looking for. If its upto 340 ish, you may find an uprated TMIC will fulfill your needs (maybe with W/I)

Im having a hell of a dilemma at the moment. TMIC wont safisyy my power demand, but are easy to fit and means I can go with the inner wing filter I want. Front mount satisfy's the power but you cave to do a lot of cutting and would have to fit a noisy induction cone

MB

dazc

Surely producing numbers is what its all about? After all, the IC's only job is to cool air, engine management system takes care of how your car actually drives.

PACE fmic has no cutting of front bumper, comes with an uprated twin fan radiator, and short hard pipes to minimise lag. Common sense says this has got to be better than an uprated top mount which can still suffer from heat spikes.

Fair comment on the induction kit though, std airbox will need removing as pipework wont fit otherwise. Daz

"but producing numbers doesn't mean everything"

Bats-Wrx

iTrader: (1)

Try a search Scott. Theres a couple of good posts about FMIC/TMIC.

Tone Loc

iTrader: (1)

Yes, that's the point. It doesn't do it's main job very well. There are intercoolers out there for half the price that do the job better. You can still produce the numbers with a hotter charge but this may put strain on other areas of the engine. And just because it managed to produce 400bhp on a run on a rolling road doesn't mean it can consistently produce this on the road and see the engine last 40,000miles.

Do a search and see why.....

Tony.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

On a VF28? In your dreams.

Dark Blue Mark

I noticed that too, I do sometimes wonder at Jap magazine for publishing stuff like that.

I have a VF28 and hope to get 330 out of it at a push....

MB

Peanuts

iTrader: (15)

the hybrid fmic is the king of top value, speak to Harvey.
of course, you can take extra steps to ensure that a tmic has a more consistant cold charge, wrap the turbo, add pc fans etc.
dont rule out top mounts just because....

jonny gav

iTrader: (1)

call me old fasioned but i wouldn't take tuning advice from a man in a dress

you can't go wrong with the hybrid, it is a proven product that works.

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

depends on your car spec and power goals as to the best i/c recommendation.

Bob

Adam M

hybrid is phenominal value, and harvey seems to keep getting the price lower and lower.

If money is tight go with the hybrid, but equally consider an sti 8 type top mount. Andy has proven that great performance is still available with a top mount, but I would like to see consistent proven performance from a top mount on track.

I believe Dowser said something over on 22b.com about the greater mass top mounts suffering even more from heat soak due to their increased mass meaning they simply absorbed proportionally more heat.

Yes my car was used to design the pace and no I wouldn't have one on my car again.

Bob commented when he mapped the car shortly afterwards that it simply didnt perform.

It had nice frontal area but the depth was too small, this was because pace wanted to use the same cores as they sell for rs500s so as to make productionn easier.

The volume of the core is simply too small and so the space velocity is too high meaning the charge does not get long enough to cool down.

The basic design idea was great but the embodiment was poorly design and compromised.

I can't complain about the nice lightweight ally pipework though! Plus it is quite short.

I dropped the pace when my targets went up to 500+bhp and fitted an HKS fmic which on the dyno was good for 568bhp and 550lbft before the engine let go.

That said, it did seem to be suffocating the engine a fraction at those levels, so I investigated the lateral core on the dyno for comparison.

The lateral core was everything the pace should have been. It maximised the space available without cutting the bumper with exits at the top to give VERY short pipe runs to the turbo and inlet manifold (reversed on my car). It still came with its own rad and fans sized well for the job, and they also perform.

The next time on the dyno, the inlet charge temp on a poorly shrouded fan was 2 degrees above ambient at over 2.3 bar of boost whent he engine was producing 550lbft.

I have seen this kind of performance repeated ont he road though have not specifically calibrated the inlet air temperature sensor even though it does appear to be consistent with what I would expect.

It is more expensive than the Hybrid, but I am pretty confident it is the very top in terms of fmic performance, and imho opinion is far better value than the HKS, APS, MRT, hyperflow and certainly the pace.

I may be biased because Mark at lateral is a friend of mine, but I think this particular product really does speak for itself.

You could argue that any larger volume intercooler will introduce lag, but that is something that you just have to accept. With greater core efficiency you can get away with a smaller volume core without losing cooling ability and introducing flow resistance but if you want maximum power handling capability, you really can't avoid a larger core which will always introduce some lag.

Dark Blue Mark

Agreed on the STi8 I/C, id liked to have fitted one to reach 360 bhp levels, but the hassle of fitting it really put me off, as well as it being untested.

HKS FMIC going on soon, but would have gone for a Hybrid otherwise. (got it cheap)

MB

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

I thought the sti8 ic was fairly straightforward to fit (particularly compared to a fmic). Just need to move the clutch fluid res and bend a bracket here and there.


Bob

Dark Blue Mark

I had a look at the thread in projects and thought it looked a bit tricky, main bits were brackets and clutch res as you say. TB hose needed cutting / shortening too and the strut brace on my STi would have to be ditched (not that it does anything

Plus you would ideally have to fit a bigger scoop and some sort of seal to the top of the ic / underbonnet to ensure the air was directed correctly.

MRT / Hyperflow TMIC looks good and is well rated, but obviusly pricey comapred to STi8.

MB

jonny gav

iTrader: (1)

we fitted an sti 8 intercooler to stevebt's car(my99 uk turbo) a while ago and to be honest it was very easy, the only problem was getting the right clearance from the gearbox mount at the back of the intercooler.

the strut brace stayed in place and it only needed a little trim off the clutch res.

not a hard job at all, in fact i think it only took us a couple of hours.

Dark Blue Mark

Interesting.... I am quite lazy and don't like fiddling with cars any more, but if someone made up an STi8 Upgrade kit....? Hint!

Did you open up the underside of the scoop? Bigger scoop fitted? Did you create a seal from I/C to bonnet?

MB

jonny gav

iTrader: (1)

i am sure i have some pics, i will see if i can find them, steve had fitted a sti 8 style scoop to his car, a good idea in my opinion.

not sure on the seal as we didn't fit that bit.