Luke

Well if he has, he hasn't posted them....

john banks

The latter m8. So you don't want to know my results at 14,16,17 and 18 PSI with and without a bleed valve for 50-70 in 3rd 4th and 5th then?

EvilBevel

LOL

Go on John, you know you want to.

Theo

john banks

No not telling

You muppetise my name in public and expect me to spill the beans ?

Tomorrow maybe.

WillieF

Well done Luke

I look forward to reading Johns daily reports now I will have to go to bed an unhappy man....

Looking forward to tomorrow - not to read the latest report but because I am getting married!!

john banks

Congratulations Willie. Have a fabulous day and don't let the photographers boss you too much. Don't drink so much you can't talk properly at the meal. Say "My wife and I". Enjoy being a celebrity for the day. Don't wait too long before you leave the reception

WillieF

Thanks John looking forward to it a lot I will be perusing your posts on my return... taking a day off specially

john banks

No you'll be too busy being married. And then buying your Evo if she lets you. Hope you've got her liking the fast cars.

T-uk

congratulations Willie and good luck,you will need it when you tell her that after spending loads modding the scoob you now want an evo to start all over again

[Edited by T-uk - 12/27/2001 11:40:29 PM]

WillieF

It is a choice between an Evo and an Sti 7 I will tell you once I have test driven the Sti on my return.. You know the best bit lads is that Ceri can't drive thus has no chance to damage the car However she likes travelling fast and will quite happily come to Knockhill with me as passenger!!

CYA

Beastie

iTrader: (2)

Id just like to say I experienced Johns latest modifications at first hand earlier this week and can vouch for his sanity. His machine is extremely potent and him being a doctor I wasnt worried if we crashed!

If only he could start work on making a decent cup of coffee, how many granules, water temp, air mass, milk fat etc

Beastie

john banks

The wife often makes the coffee. You can see why.

john banks

Conditions wet 1-3 deg C. Dawes set to 14 PSI with up to additional 3 PSI from bleed valve, 18 PSI figures with no bleed valve. Times in seconds for 50-70 in 3rd,4th and 5th. Corrected for one up and speedo error. Std times are for unmodded MY99 one up from Evo mag. Won't bore you with the details - if you want to know more email me off-line or I'll be writing War and Peace again.

Holds 13.5PSI in all setups at 6500rpm so peak power probably very little difference. By increasing the bleed or turning the Dawes up you just give yourself more boost from about 2400-6300 rpm.

The times with a partial bleed are slightly worse if the increment involves a spool up of the turbo (i.e 5th gear), but in 3rd there is no difference and it is smoother on the throttle and more adjustable on corners.

Bear in mind a 20% increase in boost will not be a 20% increase in power because the airflow is only increased by around 10% because of relative pressures for boost and there is additional ignition retard to consider.

I now run at 17.5PSI with Dawes at 14PSI and a 3.5PSI bleed as it seems to be the best compromise of throttle response and seems to get most of the performance without running silly boost.

17.5PSI does not tell the whole story. The curve is also flatter and wider than standard hence the performance increases even if you set the Dawes to 14 PSI as you will hold 14 PSI to over 6000RPM compared single figures on the OEM setup depending on your downpipe.

[Edited by john banks - 12/28/2001 9:21:15 AM]

babber

John,

LOL, I was getting worried then, no mods for the last day!!! What's going on ?? Maybe your wifes, en-trapped you in the bedroom or something or maybe your on call over the festive period

Oh, I'm glad you been working on your new mods and haven't had time to post on here. You know we were getting a little worried about you mate!!!!

Anyway, John keep up the good work, eventually (with all your knowledge gained) we should be able to mod a scooby to 300 plus BHP for about £300 You should work for Pro-drive, well that's a daft idea, someone that understands Scoobies working for Pro-drive And I guess the money will be crap

Happy New Year, Phill C

Luke

WillieF , congratulations for you and your Wife . Hope it goes well.

remember "The worse years of marriage are the ones after the wedding"!!!

EVERYONE>>>>>>> I'm doing the same tomorrow!!!!!!!!

babber

Luke and WillieF,

Listen, it's never to late to call it all off!!!

I have to go to a Wedding tomorrow in Coventry, my wifes Cousin is taking the plunge, but no children are allowed Ah well just have to leave the gang at home

And one of my mates in Yate is getting married tomorrow. I just hope the British weather will be OK!!!

Cheers Phill C

PS Oh and the sex will STOP once she slips that ring on her finger

john banks

All these end of the year weddings? Sounds suspicious to me

ENJOY!!!

BTW, today, one up 53-73 (to correct speedo off average error shown in FAQ) 3rd/4th/5th 2.5/3.5/5.5 at 17.5PSI with bleed and Dawes. 65-105 indicated 7.8 seconds. That actually is P1 fast even at the top end. The only one that improves without the bleed valve is the 53-73 in 5th by 0.5 seconds because of slower spool up, but it is worth it for the smoothness.

[Edited by john banks - 12/28/2001 3:22:06 PM]

Sith

The Dawes Devices look like good things. Will be consulting with my Scooby Fountain of Knowledge (Mr Lawson) after the Crimbo break.

P.

T-uk

well I too have been in John's car and must admit that the Dawes makes a huge difference in the mid-range.John even removed his Dawes and fitted it to my car and in a similar timed test (before and after)without gear changes my car was consistently 1 second quicker (held14.5to15psi on gauge).

now I do not want to upset you john but I am posting this here to get a response from others.

the Dawes makes a huge difference with spool up and held boost but I am worried about prolonged high revs,say over 5500rpm.we both agreed that our cars at high revs did not seem 100% as smooth as with low boost.we thought it was the bleed valve for a while with john's,but after tests bleed on/off and it did the same with my car,thought it was down to the turbo,I am now wondering if the ECU is picking up det at higher revs.when the Dawes was removed from my car(after a high rev run),I had lost at least 2psi for about 5minutes and john's car (only sometimes) does not fully boost until the 3rd or 4th attempt.

I managed to source a Dawes today from someone who decided not to fit his,but I am not fitting it until I get a knocklink wired in.

I am just wanting some inputs on this from others.

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

I also find that mid range is alot better yet top end seems a bit flat. Am currently running about 14psi.

Just one thing tho' I did notice, was after getting a couple more misfires than normal, I decided to check my coil packs as I know one of them is cracked.

Whilst doing this I decided to change to a newer set of plugs, but found on removing the current plugs, that they were as black as anything. Alot darker (and wetter)than I had seen before.

Hence at present I am assuming that the Dawes has caused the car to run alot richer. Hence I will do a full plug change tommorrow and reset the car to it's origional setting i.e no Dawes but a Bleed Valve running 14psi, and see what happens.

I will also use this oppurtunity to connect my AFR and see what the readings are standard compared to with Dawes.

Hoppy

Some comparison figures just completed in my car, which I believe is virtually identical to John's without the Dawes.

53-73mph in 3rd/4th/5th were 2.6/3.9/6.7 secs.
65-105mph in 4th/5th were 8.9/12.9.

This shows John's car to be very quick, and especially strong between 2,000 and 3,000 rpm, as the 5th gear times prove. Between 53-73mph in 5th, John'c car is an impressive 1.2 secs quicker, and his 65-105mph in 5th is a massive 5.1 secs quicker, which is even faster than my time in 4th gear

That is incredible. Can you confirm these comparisons are right, John? Blimey, that's more than P1 fast. It's more than 22B fast

My car is a UK00 saloon with PPP, ScoobySport down-pipe and catless mid-section, plus ITG panel filter.

Here's how these tests were done. Virtually flat stretch of (private ) road, temp 4 deg C, lightly gusting wind. Each time is average of four runs - two in each direction. Car with half a tank of Optimax, son in back seat looking over shoulder with stop-watch (and half a ton of stereo in the boot ). Boost gauge showed 1.15 Kg/Cm2 held - about 16.3 psi. These were also 'rolling' runs, ie floor it at lower speed, boost peaks then settles, and start the clock as the needle sweeps past the start speed. Is that how you did it, John?

Richard.

Edited to add that John hasn't posted for 48 mins Also to observe that, if my 65-105mph time in top gear is a fair comparison, it proves how much earlier the Dawes kicks in with full boost - and what a difference it makes. May car doesn't hit peak bost until about 2,700rpm-ish.

[Edited by Hoppy - 12/28/2001 8:06:57 PM]

john banks

"we both agreed that our cars at high revs did not seem 100% as smooth as with low boost"

Not sure I do! The Dawes when set over 14 PSI will hold around 13.5 PSI to 6500rpm and gives you a massive wack of power. All I have noticed is that at lower boost levels the torque curve is flatter with less midrange but still the same top end - so relatively the top end FEELS quicker. Cranking up the Dawes gives you more in the midrange so it doesn't feel relatively as perky at the top end. But it is If you want your car to feel fast at the top end (like an old school hot hatch) just set the Dawes to a low setting and there will be a big reward for going over 5000rpm relative to staying below, but I like the big midrange punch and it is the safest place to put in the higher boost so why waste it?

The TD04L is happiest in the midrange. All we are exposing is the flow limit of our turbos. Most people that seem to be mapping Unichips and Links seem to end up with similar boost curves over 3000rpm to us from the looks of it (ie 17 or more PSI until 5000rpm until it gradually tails off to 13.5PSI at 6500 and so on. Theo reported 0.9bar (13PSI) at 6500rpm on his powerful Unichipped car on its TD04L before he changed it). I think we spool up quicker below 3000rpm than these guys, and overall have an ideal boost map from the compressor efficiency maps I have.

Trying today with engine warm if pootling along for a while, the car makes within 0.5PSI of the second attempt at boost after a shutdown. I guess it is just cooling the intercooler down a bit by moving some high speed air into the scoop. Seems no different to me than when standard - it always did this. After warming up in the morning and then going for it, the second WOT run always gave a fraction higher boost. Seems to be the way of the beast at least on my car.

Regarding fuelling - I am not running over rich or lean which is a good job as I have limited options to change it.

One thing I noticed today John is that there is a lot of oil in my bleed valve! Never seen this before today, and I just wondered if your oil level was a bit high which could be affecting your boost levels if it gets into the pipework. I soaked up about 1ml from all the plumbing, whereas before it went on your car yesterday I had not seen any over several weeks of fiddling. Could be chance, but if you have a bit of oil in your pipes it may make a difference. Also, going back to the duty solenoid control as we did when we removed the Dawes from your car may take a while to readjust. Certainly when changing restrictor sizes it takes a few miles to get an idea of what the boost is really doing, and I'm sure the ECU will be changing fuelling and ignition advance to suit the new settings during this time. Although the ECU boost control system is not closed loop it does seem to adapt over a few miles to changes and stabilise - noticed this on select monitor also. If after the Dawes your car was dog slow and perked up after an ECU reset I would be more worried about det.

With a signal line off the OEM knock sensor I have not seen a dicky bird with the Dawes although I don't have a full knock link. Probably because the ECU sorts it before it knocks.

Today's figures Hoppy were EXACTLY the same method and conditions as you except SUL (no OB) not Optimax, but no small boy in the back. But ITG filter, MY00 PPP with Magnex DP and a ton of ICE also. I repeated the figures three times and was within 0.1 second every time surprisingly.

HOWEVER - my 65-105 was in 3rd then 4th gear so try again! Feel free to compare the other times - 53-73 3rd/4th/5th of 2.5/3.5/5.5. The 5.5 can be reduced to 5.0 by removing the bleed valve and only using the Dawes - the other times do not change but the throttle response is not nice without the bleed valve.

I got an indicated 0-100 of 13 yesterday with two up a horrendous start in the wet and hit the rev limiter in 1st. So maybe in good conditions I would actually get 13 or below to a genuine 100mph which is a P1 type time according to Evo. Hence I was trying a 65-105 as I though this would be 60-100 and adding 7.8 to 5.0 (which a std PPP gets) is under 13

john banks

Was it not 4 HOURS before I made a post Hoppy?

You guys complain about the long posts. I used to post a lot in ICE, but now I do in Drivetrain. Where do I go next - Muppets? You should not let me drink wine. You should make me go back to work. You should not ask so many questions. I live here. It is cosy. I like you all

I cannot drive when ****ed. So I have to post on Scoobynet. It is a terrible addiction

babber

John,

I want to book my car in for an appointment Private of course

I'm watching your threads with interest, knowing you do know what your on about!

I will be ordering a Dawes next week, and having another little chat with the fleet manager

Cheers Phill C

PS Yes Scoobynet, Blackthorn and the reefer. An interesting blend to life

john banks

The reefer??

Blackthorn and Scoobynet I understand. The latter I appreciate. The Dawes is nice because it comes off a bit easier than a downpipe

AndyMc

Hi guys

Just to give some more figures for comparision purposes I timed my car.These times are two way averages of quite a few runs.The car is a MY98 with SS D/P and Prodrive backbox.These times seem pretty good to me.

53-73(3rd,4th,5th) 2.9/4.0/7.0

65-105 thru gears 8.3 secs

30-70 thru gears 4.4 secs This is where the car feels strongest

The boost was 13.5-14 psi held and I change gear about 6200 rpm.Fifth gear feels like it takes ages to get going and full boost arrives at 2600 rpm

Ever since I fitted the D/P the boost arrives very quickly in the lower gears and I have to be more careful than I would like with the backend,and thats with the factory boost control.I'm not sure I would like the boost to arrive any quicker!.

Andy

john banks

Those are very good times Andy. T-uk and others reckon the older cars are much quicker than the later ones. Yours seems to show that well.

Your 65-105 time is very good indeed for a std ECU, as is the 30-70 time.

T-uk

john,

my oil,checked that morning is below the max,but I will check the pipes in the morning.

there is no doubt that Dawes between 2500 to 5500rpm makes a huge difference and this big fat gain may be what is making the cars feel flat higher up but I am still concerned it may be the ECU backing off,the ease at which you performed a ECU reset showed me it is something you do often,you never even looked under the dash ,I lost count of how many runs we did in your car bleed on/off to try and improve it higher up.if you look at dynomite scoobies (p.station)at Paul Walkers PPP car his boost really drops off higher up,bad boost control or for a reason?,the standard ECU cars also have far less boost than mine did with dawes above 6000.I think I was at 11.5to12psi at 6500rpm could you confirm this.

it may be that I am paranoid and there is nothing to worry about, but I feel without a Knocklink you are taking a gamble.I really hope it is just me,as the Dawes without a doubt transformed my car and I would love to get mine fitted and set.

one more thing,I actually recon that john's car would be much faster to 100 than stated above but only a timed 1/4 mile drag would confirm this and I would doubt if he would want to do that in the dry and **** his clutch and box,I know I would not.

john banks

I have done 5 ECU resets since I got the car - first after fitting induction kit, second after a downpipe, third a while after fitting the Dawes, fourth after removing the induction kit and then the fifth the other day as I thought that 18-19 PSI might have retarded the ignition too much if I was going to run it lower. Never did it make any difference whatsoever. So I didn't bother doing it again after our travels up to 18.5 PSI. But I am back to 17-17.5PSI again and it is running great.

The PPP and OEM ECU both back off boost significantly higher up. My car is running about 8% CO at 6500rpm at 13.5PSI boost no matter what settings I have on the Dawes or bleed. 50-70 in 3rd is not high enough speed in third to get up here, but when you do 70-90 in 3rd the figures sit still no matter what you set the boost controller at and the boost levels stay the same. So unless you run the Dawes below 13 PSI (which would make it dog slow in the midrange) then you can't drop that top end boost. On the compressor efficiency map I have 13.5PSI looks OK at 6500rpm, and it really drops off if you wander towards 7000rpm. All the time it remains smooth and the green light on my AFR meter remains firmly on. The only remaining question is what ignition advance is going on. I want to know how retarded it is so I think I'll contact AWD motorsport for a run on their select monitor.

Most EBCs will run the same boost as we are doing at the top end. Most cannot be programmed with RPM or TPS based boost targets, so you would get the same problem unless you went for the more sophisticated ones (e.g AVC-R) or a remappable ECU.

T-uk

checked the oil again just now and the level is between the F and the hole,this is well below absolute max notch but may still be too high.never checked pipes though.

I think you are doing the right thing getting the car up to AWD for a run with a select monitor for piece of mind,lets hope you can find another private road,where you can rev the car between 5500 and 6500+rpm in 3rd and 4th.