ENGINE REBUILT AT 55K WAS IT OPTIMAX ???
10 January 2002, 03:31 PM
#1
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Hi All
I have just got back my 98 UK unmodded ImpT after having the short engine replaced under warrenty. Apparently the turbo had gone and piston 3 had fallen to bits (hole, etc). I was not caning it and it was unmodded. Full service History etc and 55k miles.
Only thing I have done is put Optimax in it and have been running for 3 weeks and 1500 miles on pure Optimax (from empty). Has anyone else had piston and turbo damage (not sure if turbo needed replacing, I think they thought it was the turbo initially !!) on a car of the same **** and age ? Has anyone had problems with Optimax (I have only read good things on this site) ?
Also, I have had (before and now) a hesitation or flat spot between 2400 and 2800 revs. Only just noticeable, if you are steadily moving up the rev range. Not noticeable if you are accelerating past it in a flash. Feels a bit rough and definitely smoothes out before and after this range !!! Any ideas and suggestions welcomed.
Cheers,
Colin.
I have just got back my 98 UK unmodded ImpT after having the short engine replaced under warrenty. Apparently the turbo had gone and piston 3 had fallen to bits (hole, etc). I was not caning it and it was unmodded. Full service History etc and 55k miles.
Only thing I have done is put Optimax in it and have been running for 3 weeks and 1500 miles on pure Optimax (from empty). Has anyone else had piston and turbo damage (not sure if turbo needed replacing, I think they thought it was the turbo initially !!) on a car of the same **** and age ? Has anyone had problems with Optimax (I have only read good things on this site) ?
Also, I have had (before and now) a hesitation or flat spot between 2400 and 2800 revs. Only just noticeable, if you are steadily moving up the rev range. Not noticeable if you are accelerating past it in a flash. Feels a bit rough and definitely smoothes out before and after this range !!! Any ideas and suggestions welcomed.
Cheers,
Colin.
10 January 2002, 04:58 PM
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I'd be extremely surprised if a) running Optimax caused any damage to a standard UK car and b) 1500 miles would probably be to few miles to do much damage, even if your car didn't "like" the fuel.
There has been several people who have had the problem (or similar to) the one you've just described but nobody has really solved that one....plenty of theories flying about and much discussion has ensued.....
Matt.
There has been several people who have had the problem (or similar to) the one you've just described but nobody has really solved that one....plenty of theories flying about and much discussion has ensued.....
Matt.
10 January 2002, 05:13 PM
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Hi COMPUCOLIN,
I agree with the others. I can't see it being the Optimax that's caused the drama.
As for the flatspot I think that it's a bit more of a hesitation. I've had it in all three of my scoobies (97, 97, 99). It happens just before the turbo starts getting serious.
Cheers
Gazza
I agree with the others. I can't see it being the Optimax that's caused the drama.
As for the flatspot I think that it's a bit more of a hesitation. I've had it in all three of my scoobies (97, 97, 99). It happens just before the turbo starts getting serious.
Cheers
Gazza
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10 January 2002, 06:52 PM
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Cheers for all of your replies so far. Flat spot would appear to be there to stay then (unless it vanishes when de-cated etc).
Still a bit worried that the garage did not know what caused the piston and turbo (if turbo did go wrong) to fail. Do they just fall to bits like that for no reason ??? I have standard air filter, etc and no bits should have got into the cylinders. I presume that turbos can go after 55k miles and the oil can get sucked in or something to cause a problem.
I had no knocking, pinking or other noises prior to it going. But I did get really bad hesitation, like it was running out of petrol, lack of power, or a type of pause in rev range at 2500 to 3000 within the previous 200 miles. Thought is was just part of the other flat spot mixed with cold weather !!
On the night it failed, I was accelerating mildly in third to about 60, went into fourth and the car just had no power (same as symptoms of boost pipe coming off (had on an old RSTurbo)). Put my foot down and the revs would not increase above 2500 or so but car continued to go along at 60. No smoke, no noises, no overheating, no oil pressure lights, etc.
Carried on for a few miles and still no smoke, slowed down and it started running on what appeared to be 3 cylinders, pulled over and switched off. No funny smells, no visible leaks. Started it up (3 cylinders) and out came all of the oils smoke from exhaust.
It was not really black or blue though. Switched off, cursed and called recovery...
Do these symptoms mean anything to anyone ? Do they look like a turbo problem, leaking oil into pistons and then piston busting ?
What do you think?
Cheers, Colin...
Still a bit worried that the garage did not know what caused the piston and turbo (if turbo did go wrong) to fail. Do they just fall to bits like that for no reason ??? I have standard air filter, etc and no bits should have got into the cylinders. I presume that turbos can go after 55k miles and the oil can get sucked in or something to cause a problem.
I had no knocking, pinking or other noises prior to it going. But I did get really bad hesitation, like it was running out of petrol, lack of power, or a type of pause in rev range at 2500 to 3000 within the previous 200 miles. Thought is was just part of the other flat spot mixed with cold weather !!
On the night it failed, I was accelerating mildly in third to about 60, went into fourth and the car just had no power (same as symptoms of boost pipe coming off (had on an old RSTurbo)). Put my foot down and the revs would not increase above 2500 or so but car continued to go along at 60. No smoke, no noises, no overheating, no oil pressure lights, etc.
Carried on for a few miles and still no smoke, slowed down and it started running on what appeared to be 3 cylinders, pulled over and switched off. No funny smells, no visible leaks. Started it up (3 cylinders) and out came all of the oils smoke from exhaust.
It was not really black or blue though. Switched off, cursed and called recovery...
Do these symptoms mean anything to anyone ? Do they look like a turbo problem, leaking oil into pistons and then piston busting ?
What do you think?
Cheers, Colin...
11 January 2002, 12:57 AM
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Since giving Optimax a go a tank and a half later I now have hesitation, noticeable lack of initial pick up and flat spots where it seems the turbo runs out of steam. Im back on esso super but its still there. 
But mine is also a 98 Terzo, i too have noticed theres more people with 98's complaining about this problem.
All i put it down to is Optimax, but mines being looked at on Tuesday at Scoobysport so fingers crossed.
SCOBY
But mine is also a 98 Terzo, i too have noticed theres more people with 98's complaining about this problem.
All i put it down to is Optimax, but mines being looked at on Tuesday at Scoobysport so fingers crossed.
SCOBY
11 January 2002, 10:58 AM
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No, I am third owner(unfortunately). The guy in the garage said their was a "bloody great hole" in the middle of the piston and it had "fallen to bits". It was number 3. Not a very technical response, but there you go. Dealer History may not offer as much good history and care as I thought!!
I was sure the previous owners were a pentioner priest and a mild mannered librarian family guy with weak right feet who loved, adoured, cared for their little scooby like a member of the family.
I now see that they were probably a 17 year old rich kid with a size 12 Dr Martin clad right foot and a bank robber who between them had the boost limit removed, bleed valve, nitrous, drain pipe side exit exhaust, aeroplane fuel and a few other minor mods to give to unleash 500 bhp to pootle about on their own race track or endulge in a bit of robbery with a gang of a dozen fellow loony asylum inmates racing about frequently up to 9k revs in a continuous flame spitting frenzy 24-7 whilst semi-liquifying the turbo and pistons and using a vegetable oil and nitrogen drip feed to keep it cool. Then they put all of the standard stuff back on it to flog and service it.
One of those things unfortunately, but with a new short engine and turbo, some of the cars life may be restored I hope...still interested in any other ideas and similar tales of problems...
Thanks for all of your comments,
Regards, Colin...
I was sure the previous owners were a pentioner priest and a mild mannered librarian family guy with weak right feet who loved, adoured, cared for their little scooby like a member of the family.
I now see that they were probably a 17 year old rich kid with a size 12 Dr Martin clad right foot and a bank robber who between them had the boost limit removed, bleed valve, nitrous, drain pipe side exit exhaust, aeroplane fuel and a few other minor mods to give to unleash 500 bhp to pootle about on their own race track or endulge in a bit of robbery with a gang of a dozen fellow loony asylum inmates racing about frequently up to 9k revs in a continuous flame spitting frenzy 24-7 whilst semi-liquifying the turbo and pistons and using a vegetable oil and nitrogen drip feed to keep it cool. Then they put all of the standard stuff back on it to flog and service it.
One of those things unfortunately, but with a new short engine and turbo, some of the cars life may be restored I hope...still interested in any other ideas and similar tales of problems...
Thanks for all of your comments,
Regards, Colin...
11 January 2002, 01:55 PM
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A hole in a piston points to VERY bad det'. Not all types of det' are audible. Audible det' doesn't normally cause a problem, because you hear it, and back off. It's the det' that you don't hear that wrecks engines. Most of the det' "seen" on a Knock link, isn't audible.
As for the turbo, well how about lots of little bits of piston debrie going through the baring, and/or other bits of piston being blown out of the exhaust valve, and damaging the exhaust impeller. Guess that would do it.
Mark.
As for the turbo, well how about lots of little bits of piston debrie going through the baring, and/or other bits of piston being blown out of the exhaust valve, and damaging the exhaust impeller. Guess that would do it.
Mark.
11 January 2002, 02:14 PM
#15
A piece of impellor could reach a cylinder from the inlet side, but would need to get through the intercooler first - VERY unlikely!
My sons Cossie shed a piece of impellor on the exhaust side which, on its way out, hit the Lambda sensor - result was a 40 mph limp home and mega fuel consumption!
Many years ago Shell sold a grade of petrol (cant remember the name they gave it) which caused all sorts of problems in the higher performance cars, I believe it cost them dear in claims!
I`m NOT scaremongering here, I`m sure Optimax is fine.
JohnD
My sons Cossie shed a piece of impellor on the exhaust side which, on its way out, hit the Lambda sensor - result was a 40 mph limp home and mega fuel consumption!
Many years ago Shell sold a grade of petrol (cant remember the name they gave it) which caused all sorts of problems in the higher performance cars, I believe it cost them dear in claims!
I`m NOT scaremongering here, I`m sure Optimax is fine.
JohnD
11 January 2002, 02:39 PM
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What things can cause bad "Det" on an unmodded car ?
Can it cause damage (weaken piston or something) on a modded car (last owner for example) and last a month in unmodded state and then just suddenly go/melt ? (I would say not, but have no idea).
Cheers. Colin.
Can it cause damage (weaken piston or something) on a modded car (last owner for example) and last a month in unmodded state and then just suddenly go/melt ? (I would say not, but have no idea).
Cheers. Colin.
11 January 2002, 03:16 PM
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My gut reaction is poor fuelling. Hesitation as the turbo starts to boost due to running weak, combustion temp rises causing piston damge, EGT goes up putting strain on the turbo, and yes, once the piston let go, it probably shat a few bits out through the turbo.
11 January 2002, 03:57 PM
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Sorry to hear about this....
I fully agree with R19KET. If the Piston has a hole in it, that would suggest prolonged knock/predetination etc. Parts from the piston would inevitably find their way into the exhaust impellor in the Turbo, hence destruction!
The knock you don't hear is bad, and could be caused by many variables to be honest. Bob Rawle could probably draw up a list as long as your arm, but Optimax would only help 'prevent' knock if anything, so I wouldn't have thought it was that.
Bad fuelling hmmmmmm, could be faulty MAF sensor or knackered Lambda sensor. Both of these have an influence on Fuel control.
What boost did/does your engine run??? Is a bleed valve fitted or was one fitted prior to you purchasing the car???
If a bleed valve was fitted running high boost levels for a prolonged period time, this could have made the car run lean. Many people will comment that our scoobs do run rich enough to cope, but there is always a limit. The standard ECU also has a boost cut limit to protect our cars at circa 1.2 bar, but I would not like to run my car at this for prolonged periods of time as that is no guarantee of a safe margin as far as the fuelling is concerned.
Jacko.
I fully agree with R19KET. If the Piston has a hole in it, that would suggest prolonged knock/predetination etc. Parts from the piston would inevitably find their way into the exhaust impellor in the Turbo, hence destruction!
The knock you don't hear is bad, and could be caused by many variables to be honest. Bob Rawle could probably draw up a list as long as your arm, but Optimax would only help 'prevent' knock if anything, so I wouldn't have thought it was that.
Bad fuelling hmmmmmm, could be faulty MAF sensor or knackered Lambda sensor. Both of these have an influence on Fuel control.
What boost did/does your engine run??? Is a bleed valve fitted or was one fitted prior to you purchasing the car???
If a bleed valve was fitted running high boost levels for a prolonged period time, this could have made the car run lean. Many people will comment that our scoobs do run rich enough to cope, but there is always a limit. The standard ECU also has a boost cut limit to protect our cars at circa 1.2 bar, but I would not like to run my car at this for prolonged periods of time as that is no guarantee of a safe margin as far as the fuelling is concerned.
Jacko.
11 January 2002, 04:10 PM
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You'd be amazed at just how much fuel quality varies. It would normally only show up on a remapped car, but there's always the exception to the rule.
I have no idea how the previous owners had the car, or if infact they had, and removed a bleed valve, Superchip, or other nightmare waiting to happen. Do you ???
I suspect that several other things could also cause a holed piston, other than det', and the dealer should be able to identify this. Once the engine has been sorted, get them to check things out with a Select monitor.
Mark.
I have no idea how the previous owners had the car, or if infact they had, and removed a bleed valve, Superchip, or other nightmare waiting to happen. Do you ???
I suspect that several other things could also cause a holed piston, other than det', and the dealer should be able to identify this. Once the engine has been sorted, get them to check things out with a Select monitor.
Mark.
12 January 2002, 05:42 PM
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I too have bin running on Optimax for about 15000 mls, induction, FMIC, full de-cat, and 1.18 bar.
All ok so far, 'cept it aint fast enough !
I do hope that you get it sorted, nothing worse than having a fault and not knowing WHY.
All ok so far, 'cept it aint fast enough !
I do hope that you get it sorted, nothing worse than having a fault and not knowing WHY.
13 January 2002, 04:44 PM
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My 01 WRX hates optimax.Gave it an awful flat spot between 4 and 5K. Seemed to be misfiring then ok from 5+. other 97RON ok but no better than 95.
Now back on 95 and fine again.
Read somewhere that the ultra low sulphur levels don't help?
Now back on 95 and fine again.
Read somewhere that the ultra low sulphur levels don't help?
14 January 2002, 11:08 AM
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Poxy thing !! The hesitation is very noticeable still (especially within first 10 mins of steady driving from cold. It goes up to 3200 revs (which I am sure it did not do before). I have spoken to the dealer and am not happy with the "they do that" response. I am sure that no-one would be happy to live with this level of holding back & hesitance, sure its worse than the one experienced as standard on MY98s. I have owned 7 different turbo cars of varying std and modded specs and I'm sire its not just a flat spot or lag.
Would a rolling road be able to establish whether there are fuelling, timing, boost, electrical problems ? Any good ones anyone can suggest near Milton Keynes ? Or is their a diagnostic test a dealer should be able to do to establish where the problem lies at those revs (without rroad) ?
Ta, Colin....
Would a rolling road be able to establish whether there are fuelling, timing, boost, electrical problems ? Any good ones anyone can suggest near Milton Keynes ? Or is their a diagnostic test a dealer should be able to do to establish where the problem lies at those revs (without rroad) ?
Ta, Colin....
14 January 2002, 02:01 PM
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Good question, the subaru dealer put it in when engine was rebuilt, would hope that its standard stuff they use for any and everyone...I will see. Ta.
[Edited by COMPUCOLIN - 1/14/2002 2:01:58 PM]
[Edited by COMPUCOLIN - 1/14/2002 2:01:58 PM]
14 January 2002, 06:13 PM
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Your hesitation could be down to the fact that your boost solenoid and pipes are a little clogged (find it in gear but not foot to the floor thru the gears from 1st etc).
Have also run optimax (the car has always run super unleaded fuel, MY00 PPP) and never had any problems (except that my boost solenoid and pipes need cleaning )
Tony
Have also run optimax (the car has always run super unleaded fuel, MY00 PPP) and never had any problems (except that my boost solenoid and pipes need cleaning
)Tony
15 January 2002, 11:20 AM
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Yep, symptoms and reasons would all seem to tally up.
Obviously cannot cane it yet as running in but have put my foot down for a few secs once or twice and it blows past the flat spot etc. I will check the hoses out and clean as necessary (can just about handle that).
Talking of running in, I was told max of 3500 to 4000 revs for 1000 miles and an oil change as I have had a new turbo and short engine. Does this sound about right ? Can a new engine be a bit tight or something for x number of miles ?
Cheers,
Colin...
Obviously cannot cane it yet as running in but have put my foot down for a few secs once or twice and it blows past the flat spot etc. I will check the hoses out and clean as necessary (can just about handle that).
Talking of running in, I was told max of 3500 to 4000 revs for 1000 miles and an oil change as I have had a new turbo and short engine. Does this sound about right ? Can a new engine be a bit tight or something for x number of miles ?
Cheers,
Colin...
15 January 2002, 01:38 PM
#29
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Scoobystutoo,
No.3, and no.2 are fed from the same oil gallery, and are equal distance apart from it. In theory, if the problem is soley down to oil feed, no.2 is just as likely to fail.
Mark.
No.3, and no.2 are fed from the same oil gallery, and are equal distance apart from it. In theory, if the problem is soley down to oil feed, no.2 is just as likely to fail.
Mark.
01 October 2002, 07:34 PM
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The 2500rpm thing is a 'get-you-home' by the ECU. Basically it detects things are badly wrong (or a sensor's gone) and so it limits the revs to 2500rpm to try and allow you to limp home. My bet was the 'Check Engine' light was flashing like billy-o at the same time.
Piston 3 going.. mmm.. what a surprise. This seems to be a known problem with MY98s - there have been many cases on here of that happening. It seems to tie in with the lots of reports of piston slap for MY98 cars too, which is also on that cylinder. The cure is normally to fit a slightly larger piston, which the dealership will do under warranty. Bit late for you now though
Very unlikely to have been anything directly to do with Optimax, except that it allows the engine to develop slightly more power (particularly at the top end where my engine now holds on to max power from 5500-6800rpm instead of -6200rpm).
Hope this at least gives more info, even if it doesn't help!
Richard
[Edited by Bitten Hero - 1/10/2002 7:35:57 PM]
Piston 3 going.. mmm.. what a surprise. This seems to be a known problem with MY98s - there have been many cases on here of that happening. It seems to tie in with the lots of reports of piston slap for MY98 cars too, which is also on that cylinder. The cure is normally to fit a slightly larger piston, which the dealership will do under warranty. Bit late for you now though
Very unlikely to have been anything directly to do with Optimax, except that it allows the engine to develop slightly more power (particularly at the top end where my engine now holds on to max power from 5500-6800rpm instead of -6200rpm).
Hope this at least gives more info, even if it doesn't help!
Richard
[Edited by Bitten Hero - 1/10/2002 7:35:57 PM]