C

Hi all

Need some help here I have a standard P1 at the moment with a full HKS decat exhaust on which sounds the biz. I am really seriously considering a replacement ECU in the form of the above.

I can get one down by the ever helpfull Trouser @ TSL whom I spoke with today (cheers for that help).

All in it gives me some pretty serious torque emhancements i.e. 300 plus ft/lbs and should be running about 340 bhp.

Has anyone got any experience of motec - i have heard it is the daddy in terms of what they can do - i.e. map/programme for literally anything.

They reckon real world driving would make the car almost untouchable? - again any experience of this?

Cheers

Chris

Deep Singh

Hi C.Try speaking to www.brdevelopments.com. One of the owners of the company has a Motec on his STi5 that put out about 340bhp at a rolling road(before he had the fmic fitted!).Also consider a Link(advantages;almost as good,much much cheaper,and quite a few people on this site who have one and can relate their experiences)

Danny Fisher

Mark, whats wrong with running a Motec and going internal? Mine went ok.

Dan

R19KET

Danny you NUMPTY......

""The Motec is a very good piece of kit, but IMHO, unless you are intending to go internal, and run very high boost, I don't think you'll see much benifit over the cheaper ecu's, and then I'd recommend mapping on an "engine dyno".......

I wouldn't have even attempted to run your engine/boost with a Link

Mark.

C

Cheers guys

I think with what i'm planning to do check out so far below I might need the motec, purely for programmability.

FMIC for starters
bigger oil intercooler
larger hybrid turbo
bigger injectors
bigger fuel pump
gas flowed head
lairy cams
possibly a JUN stroker kit
better pistons.

etc, ect the list goes on...

I have tried brd, and had previously been warned about one of the guys - he can be a little curt to say the least!.

TSL were more helpfull though.

Anyone got any experience of apexi - i've heard good things but can't find anyone who could help me with installing/mapping?

I'm really struggling to find anyone who will really give me proper impartial advice without trying to sell m something - so if anyone can help or point me in the right direction it would be much appreciated!

Cheers

Chris

ChristianR

iTrader: (1)

i dont see why u will need a bigger oil intercooler, unless u r going to be doing track days.

C

indeedy on the trackdays!

Mike Tuckwood

There aren't a spectularly high quantity of experts with the depth of knowledge and experience in this very specialist and complex field who aren't who aren't already committed at a commercial levelto a specific or a couple of particular 'products'.

Mark does know what he's talking about (occasionally) , have a chat with several, make technical notes and compare them and see who is best able to advise not only on the specific job, but also with what appears to be a biggish (though small by comparison to some) engine build.

Then decide which one you want to go with and there you are.


Mike.

MorayMackenzie

Following up on Mike's post I would like to add that Mark is also reputed to be pretty handy on a set of skis and he makes a mean stir fry too!

piravlos

I totally agree with Mark. Even if you do all kinds of mods to the P1, the VF 28 would struggle to reach 315-320 bhp. Further, it would be wiser to do the ECU last, once you have all your mods done, since you will be saving money for remapping and not only
Hope you have good results mate

dowser

As mentioned, most knowledgeable people have their preferred solutions, which they'll champion.

Another option is reprogramming the original ecu. Check out www.ecutek.com - suitable if you're close to PE.

Richard

C

Argh!

This is not a dig but info I have been given elsewhere....

I'm confused more than anything - virtually everyone else I have spoken with says the standard turbo can flow enough air to be good for around 350 bhp!

If it can only make 310 to 315 bhp my car when I change the flter to an induction kit must be bloody close to that anyway - the only rr day I have ever done (it was at some place in cheltenham (power racing or summat like that) it was 296 bhp)

Only reason i'm not doin the kit at the moment is cos of over boosting likelyhood.

It seems by this that we are in agreeance that motec is very good but not cheap. (£2000 all in) - what is the cost of other systems then so I can get an accurate comparison?

Obviously they are not as good as other grp N rally cars would use them rather than motec - but what am I likely to lose out on with them.

Sorry for the confusion and questions guys!

Chris

Mike Tuckwood

There are MANY group 'N' rally cars running GEMS.
I've not been invited to "test" the stir fry (YET) and I heard that Adam M is faster on his snow board than Mark is on his ski's.

Mike
<probably just typed my way out of a stir fry invitation>

C

bttt for more help please - someone must be able to give me the definative answer!

Chris

R19KET

Chris,

It may be possible to squeeze close to 350bhp out of a VF28, but you would be absolutely running the nuts off of it, and it wouldn't last very long. A GrpN car wouldn't be getting anywhere near 350bhp, because the restrictor won't allow it to. I would say the max "realistic" figure from a VF28 to be 320~330bhp, if you drive the turbo hard.

As a rough guide to ecu pricing, mapped,

Link = £1000
Gems = £1500

I don't know what, if any limitations there are with the Ecutek re-map.

Mike: All the GrpN Prodrive ecu's are now supplied by Pectel.

The standard of both my skiing, and my stir fry's, depends very much on just how drunk the onlookers/samplers, are at the time.

Adam is well known for his vivid imagination unless we go off piste

Mark.

C

right so now need a better turbo for my nutter scoob.

what do you recommend - if i'm spending the money anyway I might as well get something hybrid and also something that can cope with the occasional moment of anti-lag.

could someone give me a starting price from and what they could go up to - anyone with any experience f this

- i seem to be going quite close to the limits of the inherant flaws of a crap designed engine.....

Chris

Dave T-S

Adam

Yoru lysdexia si gettnig wores maet.....

simonburton

C

I have a P1 fitted with a MoTec M800 Pro.

I had this fitted for increased bhp and torque. As yet I have not had the chance to put on a rolling road with this set up to prove the figures.

It was fitted by TSL, but mapped by an engineer from MoTec. After the intial set up, and subsequent fine tuning, it now drives like a totally diffrent car.

The power feeds more progressively through the rev range, with peak torque arriving at just over 6000 rpm - although a trip to a rr will prove this.

I have a 'conservative' map at the moment with lots of safety built in to ensure longevity of the mechanicals.

People who have driven the car have been impressed to say the least. A freind who owns a standard P1 could not beleive the difference from his standard car.

I am pretty non-technical, so when I approached TSL with the project of increased bhp and torque, they suggested this as the best route in THEIR experience.

I have read much on Scoobynet re: hybrid turbos, FMIC, injectors etc etc, but from my personall experience, the MoTec has satisfied my requirements.......for now.

I hope that this is of some help

simon

mutant_matt

Don't get carried away now.... I'm not sure any Turbo will cope with anti-lag (for long) but your VF28 Hybrided (like from Turbo Dynamics) is not a bad (cost effective) option. If you really want to go for monster HP (more than 350 up) then Mark is a very good source of advice as to what Turbo you'll need.....!!!!!!Why? because the Turbo on your car can't flow 25% more air that it's designed to do??? And we're talking about Turbos, what's engine design got to do with anything????

Matt

Adam M

have to agree with matt.

I woudl email mark about turbo choices. There is much to cover, and without doubt he has played around with more hybrids than anyone else I know.

The engine is certainly not the problem, 350bhp has been achieved almost frequently now, btu all using bigger turbos.

Antilag is not a good idea on an IHI turbo, regardless of whether hybridded or not. The VF series core in ours just isnt that strong. For that you would be better off with something like a garrett gt28 such as those provided by HKS, but this will be laggy as it is a 400plus bhp turbo. It comes with all the necessary bits to put it in place, as it will not fit as standard. It also costs way more than 2k and will need a remap.

With regard to the P1 with an M800. Putting a £3000 ecu in an otherwise unmodded car is utterly stupid in my mind. There are far more efficient gains to be had in other areas, all of which would beneift further if you then add an ecu to take advantage of them. Even then an M800 is slight overkill in that you are paying for its extra inputs and outputs and not using them (apart from idle control). It would be far more cost effective to buy an M48 which has the same processing power and map resolution.

At the moment, on a P1, I would be far more tempted to look into buying a front mount, a hybrid, a fuel pump, some bigger injectors and getting the ecutek mod done. You would probably get a lot of change from 3,000, and still have the benefits of enormous power and a beautiful idle with no air con compatibility problems.

R19KET

Simon,

I'm pleased to see that I'm not the only one who likes posting sarcastic replies, but then, Adam does deserve it some times

I believe the basic list price of the M800, is £2300 + vat, + mapping. I suspect Motec/TSL did you a deal, since the M800 is very new, and they wanted one on a car. I assume they've sorted out all the software bugs now ?

Mark.

simonburton

Hi Mark

You're right - they basically used my car for development, which was fine by me. I didn't have a clue what the list price was. People interested would need to check with TSL, BRD and other MoTec stockists for that for that

Been fitted for just over 4 weeks, in which time I have covered approx. 3500 miles.

There have been no problems at all - just the need to put fuel in more regularly than before , and also to watch out for the speedo getting into silly numbers very quickly

simon

simonburton

Adam

No problem - banter makes the world go round

My parameters were quite simple - i wanted to go faster, but relaiably.

I spoke with several companies well known to Scoobynet users, and got several different opinions on how to do this. In the end I considered all of this, and went down the M800 route.

As I said so far so good - the car is very very quick.

As you point out, there are probably further gains from other mods including fmic, which I will probably consider at some stage...if I can get them at a reduced development fee

Tuning would be easier if there was only one definative method for increasing torque, bhp, etc etc, but that would be boring I suppose.

simon

C - don't know if any of this helps you in your quest

C

Wah!

This is all starting to go over my head now!

Simon - Trouser mentioned your car to me as thier testbed vehicle.

thinking back when speaking to him he said all in including the dreaded vodka & tonic it would be £2000.

I understand that tuning is completely subjective and what works for some people will not for others -

I am trying to draw a general pattern for what to do from all the different ideas being banded around but an struggling somewhat at the moment!

I have £3000 maximum to spend - I need to get guages as well, i.e. boost, oil temp and afr purely for peace of mind - and then the rest goes on the engine.

Ideally longetivity is paramound - I know subaru engines are not very strong in general, but more than bhp all I want is a great big dollop of tourque increase and drivability which is what temps me about the motec - i.e. plug it in, map it off you go, car doesn't det any more - runs better - goes faster - probably less likely to go bang.

mods do need to be fairly stealth like at this stage for warranty reasons - i.e. i am lead to believe with the motec ecu i can unplug this and plug in the standard ecu for servicing (don't ask about dealers around here!).

does anyone have any better suggestions?

Chris

R19KET

Chris,

"FMIC for starters
bigger oil intercooler
larger hybrid turbo
bigger injectors
bigger fuel pump
gas flowed head
lairy cams
possibly a JUN stroker kit
better pistons.

etc, ect the list goes on..."

Nice list...........


"I have £3000 to spend"

You on drugs or something

You're going to need some very carefull costing up. I know £3000 is a lot of money, but it the context of what you're proposing, it's very little

Mark.

mutant_matt

...and I still say that that's an unfair statement to make.....compared to what? A Cossie engine? which are often good for up to 600bhp????? (but they are steel and the Scoob is not)

It's designed to take up to 300bhp and will run reliably up to this (and beyond). It's capable of 500-600bhp if you *really* want it to be (but like anything, you've got to change the right bits in a sensible manor!!!!!)

Anyway, back to the main point, for £3000 you should just about be able to get a FMIC, Hybrid your VF28 and get a mapped GEMS. At that level, you don't really need a MoTec and the GEMS is a good product which will make the most of those mods. Or even, as Adam said, the ECUTEK TEK2 (remap of OE ECU) would also be a cost effective way of getting the best from your FMIC & HB Turbo.....

Once again, all IMHO.

Now if you want to spend big bucks.....I'm sure Mark could give you some very good pointers......

Matt

Adam M

Am fairly certain a motec cannot be easily swapped out, especially not oin a P1 having a phase 2 engine, they have to do a couple of tricks (on the m48 at least) to get the idle to work, but then teh M800 does have idle speed control.

In terms of easy fitting plug and play, I think teh gems would be a better an cheaper option. The motec immediately is not the same size and shape as the standard ecu, so you would need a footwell mod to accomodate it, whereas the gems fits in the standard location with no loom adapter. It is also cheaper.

The ways to make our cars go faster are really simple to understand.

more air = more power. How you achieve this is up to you. You can do it by just upping the boost by adjusting the map, or you can fit things which make the same boost cooler and therefore contain a greater mass of air since it is more dense, such as intercoolers, and bigger turbos.

Personally I am more of a fan of upgrading the hardware, and running less boost, but each to their own.

In your case.

I would fit an fmic, a hybrid and a gems. You will need to be lucky to get that lot for under 3k as the gems is about 1500, the fmic is normally about 1k and a hybrid is gonna be more than 1k unless you know the right people.

Even if you do this lot, your injectors will be unhappy, so you need to consider that too. You also need to remember that it is best to do the ecu last as all the mods require a remap.

but then there is only so much the standard ecu can cope with before it starts to under fuel.

Simons way is nice for not a ridiculous sum of money. You get a decent gain which will work well, but dont expect the 350 type figures you are after without upgrading the rest of the car.

C

mark/r19ket

sorry didn't make this clear!

have changed opinions whilst the car is still under warranty - mods need to be stealth like - this is why the £3k limit.

Once the warranty runs out then comes the big stuff - you can hid an ecu - when it comes to servicing.

I'd struggle with and fmic - differnt turbo etc!!!!!!

this is just to get me buy, and to stop me from selling it and get a mad skyline fior the moment.

Chris

C

cheers adam!

know or recommend anyone to slap that lot on for me?

i know scoobymania do the Gems kit - fmic & hybrid - who would you guys recommend?

Chris

mutant_matt

I personally like the APS FMIC and we should have a UK distributor within the next few weeks

Turbo Dynamics for your Hybrid conversion and Scoobymania/Town End Garage (?) to supply the GEMS. Steve (forgot his surname) usually does the mapping and comes to you (I think, *usually* )

Or EcuTek, Tek2 for £650 (ish) from Power Engineering/EcuTek

Matt