Uprate standard gearbox? Possible??
22 January 2011, 05:15 PM
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Uprate standard gearbox? Possible??
Alright guys, now my gearbox knowledge is very limited however my car been off the road for a while due to a knackard gearbox. Not quite sure how bad the damage is but i want to know if i can uprate the stadard gearbox to be avle to take the 414bhp the engine is running??
Can i uprate all the internals, maybe change anything or what? Is itpossible?
It made me think when i was looking at a spec c 5 speed and wondered if this is just a standard box but everything uprated?
Its a standard 5 speed box originally on the car (02 wrx) before i started the engine work but ran out of money before i could do much with the box.
Now if this is possible, what would i need to uprate and where can i source the parts from at the best prices obviously....!!
thanks in advance for your help
Can i uprate all the internals, maybe change anything or what? Is itpossible?
It made me think when i was looking at a spec c 5 speed and wondered if this is just a standard box but everything uprated?
Its a standard 5 speed box originally on the car (02 wrx) before i started the engine work but ran out of money before i could do much with the box.
Now if this is possible, what would i need to uprate and where can i source the parts from at the best prices obviously....!!
thanks in advance for your help
22 January 2011, 05:18 PM
#2
Alright guys, now my gearbox knowledge is very limited however my car been off the road for a while due to a knackard gearbox. Not quite sure how bad the damage is but i want to know if i can uprate the stadard gearbox to be avle to take the 414bhp the engine is running??
Can i uprate all the internals, maybe change anything or what? Is itpossible?
It made me think when i was looking at a spec c 5 speed and wondered if this is just a standard box but everything uprated?
Its a standard 5 speed box originally on the car (02 wrx) before i started the engine work but ran out of money before i could do much with the box.
Now if this is possible, what would i need to uprate and where can i source the parts from at the best prices obviously....!!
thanks in advance for your help
Can i uprate all the internals, maybe change anything or what? Is itpossible?
It made me think when i was looking at a spec c 5 speed and wondered if this is just a standard box but everything uprated?
Its a standard 5 speed box originally on the car (02 wrx) before i started the engine work but ran out of money before i could do much with the box.
Now if this is possible, what would i need to uprate and where can i source the parts from at the best prices obviously....!!
thanks in advance for your help
22 January 2011, 05:28 PM
#4
It's possible to put ppg straight cut gears into a 5 speed casing yes but at 3.5k plus to do it,its not cost affective at all really when you can have a 6 speed which will be great with that power level as some on here are running 600bhp through them.
23 January 2011, 08:41 AM
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Further to above.....
Spec C and ppg are both 5 speed arent they so whats trhe differences and where does the spec c originate from??
MOving back to the original idea of a 6 speed conversion does the 6 speed box fit into my wrx as a direct replacement for the 5 speed standard or is there any modifications that are needed, or any other parts that would require changing?
I would assume i would need the propshaft and rear diff to suit the 6 speed also??
That moves me on to my next area of total confusion........Differential ratios???
There are a number of posts on here questioning the ratios of rear diffs? WHat do i need to look for and is there any benefit having different ratios? Im assuming you need the matching diff to the gearbox to ensure equal power transfer to the rear wheels as whats coming out of the box to the fronts?? Any advice on this would be much appreciated.
Im hopefully going to start taking the box out this week sometime then look for all the parts i need.
Spec C and ppg are both 5 speed arent they so whats trhe differences and where does the spec c originate from??
MOving back to the original idea of a 6 speed conversion does the 6 speed box fit into my wrx as a direct replacement for the 5 speed standard or is there any modifications that are needed, or any other parts that would require changing?
I would assume i would need the propshaft and rear diff to suit the 6 speed also??
That moves me on to my next area of total confusion........Differential ratios???
There are a number of posts on here questioning the ratios of rear diffs? WHat do i need to look for and is there any benefit having different ratios? Im assuming you need the matching diff to the gearbox to ensure equal power transfer to the rear wheels as whats coming out of the box to the fronts?? Any advice on this would be much appreciated.
Im hopefully going to start taking the box out this week sometime then look for all the parts i need.
23 January 2011, 09:10 AM
#7
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Further to above.....
Spec C and ppg are both 5 speed arent they so whats trhe differences and where does the spec c originate from??
MOving back to the original idea of a 6 speed conversion does the 6 speed box fit into my wrx as a direct replacement for the 5 speed standard or is there any modifications that are needed, or any other parts that would require changing?
I would assume i would need the propshaft and rear diff to suit the 6 speed also??
That moves me on to my next area of total confusion........Differential ratios???
There are a number of posts on here questioning the ratios of rear diffs? WHat do i need to look for and is there any benefit having different ratios? Im assuming you need the matching diff to the gearbox to ensure equal power transfer to the rear wheels as whats coming out of the box to the fronts?? Any advice on this would be much appreciated.
Im hopefully going to start taking the box out this week sometime then look for all the parts i need.
Spec C and ppg are both 5 speed arent they so whats trhe differences and where does the spec c originate from??
MOving back to the original idea of a 6 speed conversion does the 6 speed box fit into my wrx as a direct replacement for the 5 speed standard or is there any modifications that are needed, or any other parts that would require changing?
I would assume i would need the propshaft and rear diff to suit the 6 speed also??
That moves me on to my next area of total confusion........Differential ratios???
There are a number of posts on here questioning the ratios of rear diffs? WHat do i need to look for and is there any benefit having different ratios? Im assuming you need the matching diff to the gearbox to ensure equal power transfer to the rear wheels as whats coming out of the box to the fronts?? Any advice on this would be much appreciated.
Im hopefully going to start taking the box out this week sometime then look for all the parts i need.
There is no 5 speed Spec C gearbox. Spec Cs were all equipped with 6 speed boxes since they were introduced in 2001.Anyway, going back to your original question. Is there anyway to strengthen your 5 speed box? Yes, by fitting PPG (or similar manufacturers) type of gears which are sometimes straight-cut which are much stronger than helical cut gears (which regular cars have) which will give you that lovely rally car type gearbox whine
Alternatively, you can get a set of gears from the GC8 STI RA (regular helical cut) but has slightly wider gear widths (1mm IIRC), that will strengthen it a little, but not much more TBH. And i doubt it'll take much abuse from a 400+bhp engine if you use that power often.
Another point to note, changing to shorter ratios does ease the load on the gears significantly too. It has mechanical advantage over taller ratios. So the STI RA does have shorter ratios as compared to a uk wrx, so it helps as well. You can get the PPGs in shorter ratios as well.
Or as prodriverules says, do a 6 speed swap and call it a day. And yes, you'll need the prop shaft and rear diff to match.
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23 January 2011, 09:29 AM
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I always had the intention of going down the 6 speed route but was talking with a friend of a friend yesterday who does a lot with gearboxes and he mentioned getting the damaged one out, finding out what is exactly wrong with it and strengthening the internals.
After looking at some of the prices even for helical cut gears last night i think its a no no so back to the 6 speed plan.
So if i find a 6 speed set up (Box, prop, Diff, front & rear shafts) is it a straight swap over? Then once its in does anything else need setting up, i know i will need to get the engine remapped to suit the 6 speed instead of 5?
I assume the 6 speed is capable of handling the 400-450 quite easilly is it?
As for ratio's, there is obviously different ones available for the 6 speed set up but which would you recommend? YOu say the shorter ratios would work well, but what about top end for the track days etc?
A mate of mine had a classic ra a few years ago and whilst it was awesome through the gears it was flat out at 90-100mph?
Thanks for help so far mate.
After looking at some of the prices even for helical cut gears last night i think its a no no so back to the 6 speed plan.
So if i find a 6 speed set up (Box, prop, Diff, front & rear shafts) is it a straight swap over? Then once its in does anything else need setting up, i know i will need to get the engine remapped to suit the 6 speed instead of 5?
I assume the 6 speed is capable of handling the 400-450 quite easilly is it?
As for ratio's, there is obviously different ones available for the 6 speed set up but which would you recommend? YOu say the shorter ratios would work well, but what about top end for the track days etc?
A mate of mine had a classic ra a few years ago and whilst it was awesome through the gears it was flat out at 90-100mph?
Thanks for help so far mate.
23 January 2011, 04:31 PM
#9
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I always had the intention of going down the 6 speed route but was talking with a friend of a friend yesterday who does a lot with gearboxes and he mentioned getting the damaged one out, finding out what is exactly wrong with it and strengthening the internals.
After looking at some of the prices even for helical cut gears last night i think its a no no so back to the 6 speed plan.
So if i find a 6 speed set up (Box, prop, Diff, front & rear shafts) is it a straight swap over? Then once its in does anything else need setting up, i know i will need to get the engine remapped to suit the 6 speed instead of 5?
I assume the 6 speed is capable of handling the 400-450 quite easilly is it?
As for ratio's, there is obviously different ones available for the 6 speed set up but which would you recommend? YOu say the shorter ratios would work well, but what about top end for the track days etc?
A mate of mine had a classic ra a few years ago and whilst it was awesome through the gears it was flat out at 90-100mph?
Thanks for help so far mate.
After looking at some of the prices even for helical cut gears last night i think its a no no so back to the 6 speed plan.
So if i find a 6 speed set up (Box, prop, Diff, front & rear shafts) is it a straight swap over? Then once its in does anything else need setting up, i know i will need to get the engine remapped to suit the 6 speed instead of 5?
I assume the 6 speed is capable of handling the 400-450 quite easilly is it?
As for ratio's, there is obviously different ones available for the 6 speed set up but which would you recommend? YOu say the shorter ratios would work well, but what about top end for the track days etc?
A mate of mine had a classic ra a few years ago and whilst it was awesome through the gears it was flat out at 90-100mph?
Thanks for help so far mate.
), the costs invovled may not be practical as you've found out. And as we know, the 6 speed gearbox is superior in everyway to the 5 speed gearbox.I'm not exactly sure what parts are needed for a successful swap. I think the later (MY05 >) 6 speed boxes will need the hubs and brakes as well, as they run 114.3 PCDs. Your best bet is to ask someone or a workshop who has done it properly.
Alternatively check out these for lots of detailed information: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1672474
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187454
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1412230
You might benefit by retuning the boost controller as the ratios are much closer on the 6 speed, so there might be less load on some gears. But i don't think remapping the ECU is necessary.
I may be wrong.Yes, the 6 speed is more than capable of running 400-500bhp.
What is the spec of your engine (2.0L or 2.5L)? What redline do you have? If you have a highish redline (7500-8000rpm) I'd say get the JDM STI 6 speed which happens to have the closest ratios. If you have the stock 7000rpm, i'd think a Euro 2.0L STI 6 speed might be a better match.
I only say the shorter ratios are better because it puts less strain on the gears, but ratios should be chosen to match engine powerband and usage. Short ratios are useless on a car with its peak torque at 1800rpm and a redline of 5000rpm.
What year classic does he have? The shortest ratio of all RAs has a 5th ratio of 0.972 and a final drive of 4.111. So based on calculation, it should have a theoretical topspeed of 128mph with a 7500rpm redline.
All the 6 speed gearboxes have a decent 6th. So no issues there.
23 January 2011, 07:58 PM
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Very helpful there mate thanks. Yes i agree, gearboxes fascinate me and thats why im determined to learn as much as i can with this swap over even though i cant do the work myself i wouldnt mind been there giving a helping hand (Although im sure ill annoy the hell out of the person changing it with all my questions!!!)
Yeah, looks like i need someone to tell me exactly what i need then go out and find it.
Its a 2.5L bottom end (Axis racing spec) but i think the red line is still only set at 7000 at the mo. Bob Rawl set the car up but i know the set up programmed was reserved because i only had the standard 5 speed box in it. Definatly got a gradule boost increase for 1st i know that and im pretty sure he kept the rev limiter down some too.
WHat do u mean by "returning the boost controller?"
Ah, now it wqas only me guessing but going by what ive already said about Bobs set up i would have automatically assumed the ecu would need a re-map to have the different rev bands set up to comply with the additional gear but maybe not? SOme more advice would be handy on this if anyone knows?
His RA was a 96 year but it was a while ago he had that too so cant gain any info from it.
With a good top gear i would be happy. I want to be able to have a decent acceleration (Probably the most important part) but also be able to have a resonable top end of the track days (I want to do the nurburg in the summer and dont fancy the long straight with a restricted top end) lol
Yeah, looks like i need someone to tell me exactly what i need then go out and find it.
Its a 2.5L bottom end (Axis racing spec) but i think the red line is still only set at 7000 at the mo. Bob Rawl set the car up but i know the set up programmed was reserved because i only had the standard 5 speed box in it. Definatly got a gradule boost increase for 1st i know that and im pretty sure he kept the rev limiter down some too.
WHat do u mean by "returning the boost controller?"
Ah, now it wqas only me guessing but going by what ive already said about Bobs set up i would have automatically assumed the ecu would need a re-map to have the different rev bands set up to comply with the additional gear but maybe not? SOme more advice would be handy on this if anyone knows?
His RA was a 96 year but it was a while ago he had that too so cant gain any info from it.
With a good top gear i would be happy. I want to be able to have a decent acceleration (Probably the most important part) but also be able to have a resonable top end of the track days (I want to do the nurburg in the summer and dont fancy the long straight with a restricted top end) lol
24 January 2011, 05:27 AM
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Very helpful there mate thanks. Yes i agree, gearboxes fascinate me and thats why im determined to learn as much as i can with this swap over even though i cant do the work myself i wouldnt mind been there giving a helping hand (Although im sure ill annoy the hell out of the person changing it with all my questions!!!)
Yeah, looks like i need someone to tell me exactly what i need then go out and find it.
Its a 2.5L bottom end (Axis racing spec) but i think the red line is still only set at 7000 at the mo. Bob Rawl set the car up but i know the set up programmed was reserved because i only had the standard 5 speed box in it. Definatly got a gradule boost increase for 1st i know that and im pretty sure he kept the rev limiter down some too.
WHat do u mean by "returning the boost controller?"
Ah, now it wqas only me guessing but going by what ive already said about Bobs set up i would have automatically assumed the ecu would need a re-map to have the different rev bands set up to comply with the additional gear but maybe not? SOme more advice would be handy on this if anyone knows?
His RA was a 96 year but it was a while ago he had that too so cant gain any info from it.
With a good top gear i would be happy. I want to be able to have a decent acceleration (Probably the most important part) but also be able to have a resonable top end of the track days (I want to do the nurburg in the summer and dont fancy the long straight with a restricted top end) lol
Yeah, looks like i need someone to tell me exactly what i need then go out and find it.
Its a 2.5L bottom end (Axis racing spec) but i think the red line is still only set at 7000 at the mo. Bob Rawl set the car up but i know the set up programmed was reserved because i only had the standard 5 speed box in it. Definatly got a gradule boost increase for 1st i know that and im pretty sure he kept the rev limiter down some too.
WHat do u mean by "returning the boost controller?"
Ah, now it wqas only me guessing but going by what ive already said about Bobs set up i would have automatically assumed the ecu would need a re-map to have the different rev bands set up to comply with the additional gear but maybe not? SOme more advice would be handy on this if anyone knows?
His RA was a 96 year but it was a while ago he had that too so cant gain any info from it.
With a good top gear i would be happy. I want to be able to have a decent acceleration (Probably the most important part) but also be able to have a resonable top end of the track days (I want to do the nurburg in the summer and dont fancy the long straight with a restricted top end) lol
Who are you thinking of getting to do the gearbox swap? I believe places like RCM, Tracktive, Zen etc all would have the knowledge and experience. Or you could get Bob to recommend someone. 6 speed swaps are quite common i believe.
Let's see a few different set of ratios from different STIs with their respective redlines.
JDM STI MY01-MY07 (8000rpm redline)
(1st) 3.636 (2nd) 2.375 (3rd) 1.761 (4th) 1.346 (5th) 1.062 (6th) 0.842 Final Drive 3.900
UK/Euro STI MY01-MY05 (7200rpm redline)
(1st) 3.636 (2nd) 2.375 (3rd) 1.761 (4th) 1.346 (5th) 0.971 (6th) 0.756 Final Drive 3.900
UK/Euro STI MY06-MY07 (7000rpm redline)
(1st) 3.636 (2nd) 2.235 (3rd) 1.521 (4th) 1.137 (5th) 0.891 (6th) 0.707 Final Drive 3.900
As you can see, as the redline drops, gear ratios lengthen, to compensate. If not, there won't be enough speed in each gear.
I'm a strong believer that the ratios that come with STIs are possibly quite well researched and well balanced. So i won't stray too far if the car is to be used daily with occasional track use. Afterall, STI's are developed on the ring aren't they?
As to what suits your need, you'll need to answer that one yourself. You can play around here http://www.catherineandken.co.uk/sti/tyres.html to give you an idea on what speed each gear takes you with the corresponding rpm.
Well, some boost controllers have spike functions in them (such as AVC-R), it allows you to spike up to "that" level of boost when or if your gears don't load the engine enough to create "that" level of boost.
(Eg. Target boost 1.5bar. But 1st gear without spike only sees 1.1 bar as it runs through the rpm range quicker than theres enough load to build boost) Hope you get what i mean.
So, with a hypothetical 20% spike, it now reaches 1.45-1.5 bar nicely in 1st gear.Now, if the 6 speed's 1st gear is even lower than a wrx's. Then you would need to retune (maybe increase spike to 25%?) to achieve the same 1.45-1.5bar boost.
I'm not sure if remapping the ECU would be needed? Maybe for ignition maps? I'm not sure.
By the way, please bare in mind that the UK MY05-MY07 gearboxes have DCCD, so theres your additional headache
I don't think it's a straight swap for that one. With a 7000rpm redline, i would think a Euro/UK MY01-MY04 6 speed with a 0.756 (6th) gear should give you ample speed for the ring's last straight.
Please note that I'm NO race/car engineer. Everything about the boost controller issues and my opinions are based on my personal experience.
24 January 2011, 07:43 AM
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And sometimes personal experiances are better as you actually drive the car each day therefore you know if the car has been set up to suit your expectations / requirements.
Those links are good, saved them in my favourites to have a detailed read through when i got a few mins spare. thanks.
Im not too sure at the moments to be honest, i may speak with a local guy who specialises in subaru's or this friends friend who plays about with gearboxes for fun. I just need to learn what i need to do the job first, get all the parts here and make the decision. Im not going to have all the money available in one shot to do this you see, so if i can pick the parts up as i go then pay for the labour at a later stage it would suit me better.
Im aware of the DCCD problem and was going to stear clear of this, although having DCCD would be great the electronic side of it would just be a nightmare and another area where i can have problems. Didint realise they were on all 05-07 sti's though.....
I also didnt realise 6 speed boxes were in cars as early as 01's. So that would be the uk bug eye sti then yes?? See my other option was to find a wrote off car as i could have a lot more bits available to me to push the project on more.
YOu got any gearbox codes at all for the UK 01-04 box, as i think you have made my mind up now........
Those links are good, saved them in my favourites to have a detailed read through when i got a few mins spare. thanks.
Im not too sure at the moments to be honest, i may speak with a local guy who specialises in subaru's or this friends friend who plays about with gearboxes for fun. I just need to learn what i need to do the job first, get all the parts here and make the decision. Im not going to have all the money available in one shot to do this you see, so if i can pick the parts up as i go then pay for the labour at a later stage it would suit me better.
Im aware of the DCCD problem and was going to stear clear of this, although having DCCD would be great the electronic side of it would just be a nightmare and another area where i can have problems. Didint realise they were on all 05-07 sti's though.....
I also didnt realise 6 speed boxes were in cars as early as 01's. So that would be the uk bug eye sti then yes?? See my other option was to find a wrote off car as i could have a lot more bits available to me to push the project on more.
YOu got any gearbox codes at all for the UK 01-04 box, as i think you have made my mind up now........
25 January 2011, 06:13 AM
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If this is a totally and utterly stupid idea I apologise in advance
.
I remember reading in Banzai I think about some cryogenically treated brake discs. Apparently the freezing process makes the metal much stronger. I've done a bit googling and seems various car bits including gearboxes can be treated.
Would this make the gears much stronger? Not sure if it would cost a lot or not. Has anybody tried this out? Or is this just some crazy nutjob thought that suddenly popped into my head
.I remember reading in Banzai I think about some cryogenically treated brake discs. Apparently the freezing process makes the metal much stronger. I've done a bit googling and seems various car bits including gearboxes can be treated.
Would this make the gears much stronger? Not sure if it would cost a lot or not. Has anybody tried this out? Or is this just some crazy nutjob thought that suddenly popped into my head
Last edited by Matt2732; 25 January 2011 at 06:21 AM.
25 January 2011, 06:20 AM
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Got a feeling this was the place in banzai
http://www.frozensolid.co.uk/index.html
Feel free to begin mocking me now
http://www.frozensolid.co.uk/index.html
Feel free to begin mocking me now
25 January 2011, 07:54 AM
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Just had a very brief read and looks quite interesting however i would need some more tecnological opinions on this.
Is it a simple process as buying new standard internals and sending them to be crynologically frozen then rebuild it or what.....
Is it a simple process as buying new standard internals and sending them to be crynologically frozen then rebuild it or what.....
25 January 2011, 08:06 AM
#16
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And sometimes personal experiances are better as you actually drive the car each day therefore you know if the car has been set up to suit your expectations / requirements.
Those links are good, saved them in my favourites to have a detailed read through when i got a few mins spare. thanks.
Im not too sure at the moments to be honest, i may speak with a local guy who specialises in subaru's or this friends friend who plays about with gearboxes for fun. I just need to learn what i need to do the job first, get all the parts here and make the decision. Im not going to have all the money available in one shot to do this you see, so if i can pick the parts up as i go then pay for the labour at a later stage it would suit me better.
Im aware of the DCCD problem and was going to stear clear of this, although having DCCD would be great the electronic side of it would just be a nightmare and another area where i can have problems. Didint realise they were on all 05-07 sti's though.....
I also didnt realise 6 speed boxes were in cars as early as 01's. So that would be the uk bug eye sti then yes?? See my other option was to find a wrote off car as i could have a lot more bits available to me to push the project on more.
YOu got any gearbox codes at all for the UK 01-04 box, as i think you have made my mind up now........
Those links are good, saved them in my favourites to have a detailed read through when i got a few mins spare. thanks.
Im not too sure at the moments to be honest, i may speak with a local guy who specialises in subaru's or this friends friend who plays about with gearboxes for fun. I just need to learn what i need to do the job first, get all the parts here and make the decision. Im not going to have all the money available in one shot to do this you see, so if i can pick the parts up as i go then pay for the labour at a later stage it would suit me better.
Im aware of the DCCD problem and was going to stear clear of this, although having DCCD would be great the electronic side of it would just be a nightmare and another area where i can have problems. Didint realise they were on all 05-07 sti's though.....
I also didnt realise 6 speed boxes were in cars as early as 01's. So that would be the uk bug eye sti then yes?? See my other option was to find a wrote off car as i could have a lot more bits available to me to push the project on more.
YOu got any gearbox codes at all for the UK 01-04 box, as i think you have made my mind up now........
Yeah, the DCCD would be great to have. The DCCD was available from MY05 onwards on all UK cars and only MY06 onwards on Euro cars. JDM gearboxes are a different story. DCCD was available on them since 2001. If you want to do DCCD, i think you'd have to get a JDM pre MY05 box, after MY05, all the STIs were equipped with steering angle sensor, yaw sensor etc which makes swapping even more difficult if not impossible
The DCCD was alot simpler before MY05.But a properly set up car with some nice aftermarket tarmac diffs can be interesting
Yes, 6 speed boxes were introduced together with Brembo brakes when they launched the Bugeye STI.
Yes mate, your better off buying an entire car salvaging whatever you need and selling the rest for cash. That way, you'll be sure you get everything you need.
Here you go matey. There are quite a few. Use this to cross reference the gearbox you are getting.
25 January 2011, 08:16 AM
#17
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Yes Matt, it has been done before. As a matter of fact, i had a set of frozen RA gear set on my uk wrx some time back. This is more popular in the US than over here i think
Anyway, i can't comment on how much stronger they made the 5 speed to be, as i've always favoured rev matching shifts to flat shifting
But whatever it may do, it's not going to beat a straight cut gearbox or a 6 speeder
Anyway, i can't comment on how much stronger they made the 5 speed to be, as i've always favoured rev matching shifts to flat shifting
But whatever it may do, it's not going to beat a straight cut gearbox or a 6 speeder
Last edited by Suberman; 25 January 2011 at 08:56 AM.
25 January 2011, 02:24 PM
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Must admit I have no idea at all, just remembered the article and wondered if it could be applied and make a decent budget upgrade. Trouble is if you ring up a company that does it they probably will tell you its a miracle cure!
At least the 6 speed route is a known route!
At least the 6 speed route is a known route!
25 January 2011, 03:47 PM
#19
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Must admit I have no idea at all, just remembered the article and wondered if it could be applied and make a decent budget upgrade. Trouble is if you ring up a company that does it they probably will tell you its a miracle cure!
At least the 6 speed route is a known route!
At least the 6 speed route is a known route!
27 January 2011, 04:18 PM
#20
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Thanks for the gearbox list matey. Am i assuming that (Apart from the DCCD because i dont want the hassle of plumbing it in!!!) any of these gearboxes are suitablefor transplant into my 02 bug?
Also, does the 6 speed box bolt to the engione block the same way as the 5 speed unbolts, i.e. its a straight swap actually puytting the box on the car???
U mention aftermarket tarmac diffs?? Will the 6 speed diffs not be suitable or is this another upgrade i can look at afterwards....?
Thanks
Also, does the 6 speed box bolt to the engione block the same way as the 5 speed unbolts, i.e. its a straight swap actually puytting the box on the car???
U mention aftermarket tarmac diffs?? Will the 6 speed diffs not be suitable or is this another upgrade i can look at afterwards....?
Thanks
28 January 2011, 03:11 AM
#21
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Thanks for the gearbox list matey. Am i assuming that (Apart from the DCCD because i dont want the hassle of plumbing it in!!!) any of these gearboxes are suitablefor transplant into my 02 bug?
Also, does the 6 speed box bolt to the engione block the same way as the 5 speed unbolts, i.e. its a straight swap actually puytting the box on the car???
U mention aftermarket tarmac diffs?? Will the 6 speed diffs not be suitable or is this another upgrade i can look at afterwards....?
Thanks
Also, does the 6 speed box bolt to the engione block the same way as the 5 speed unbolts, i.e. its a straight swap actually puytting the box on the car???
U mention aftermarket tarmac diffs?? Will the 6 speed diffs not be suitable or is this another upgrade i can look at afterwards....?
Thanks
I do know that the rear diffs and gearboxes are not all interchangeable. So i don't think you can fit a MY07 rear diff to a MY03 gearbox for example. TBH mate, i don't want to tell you something i'm not 100% sure.
I believe it should bolt onto the block in the same way. I have not heard of anyone having to alter the bolts or the block to fit a 6 speed.
i checked the links from NASIOC i sent earlier. It doesn't say anything about the block or bolting methods. It did say that you'd need a 6 speed clutch, shift linkages and clutch folk and slave cylinder though. I was saying that without DCCD, you can always get aftermarket tarmac diffs which are in some ways better than the regular STI diffs that come with the 6 speed gearboxes without DCCD. The 6 speed diffs work fine, but as far as i've read, the earlier (pre MY05) Suretrac diffs made the STI understeer more than we want, so you can definitely see aftermarket diffs as an upgrade you can do later on.
Here are some vids for your reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g92zLmCoxqU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Npc...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWRVA...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mzyw8jyWG3g <- See what correct selection of diffs can make.
^ If you have the time, watch the whole video which is 40mins long to see how the tuned GDB STI compares to the Spec C http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoVza...eature=related
28 January 2011, 08:13 AM
#22
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woa there horsey,,,,,
be very carfeull of going form a 5 speed to a 6 speed, the ratio's are totaly different. As far as being superior in everyway, tbh there's little to no difference bar the ratios, so not sure why you think a 6 speed is better in everyway? lol (but that opinion, so we can argue abut it all day lol)
I drive a 5 speed ppg and a 6 speed sti box on a regular basis (my car and my dads), and tbh i hate the 6 speed ratio's, always running out of revs and having to change gear, i find the longer ratios are much better to drive and the wine ooo ooo ooo.
i think JGM was selling his 5 speed PPG box for about 2k.
as far as which ratios are better, well realy depends what you wanna do with it, drag, track street only etc etc.
my advice is try and borrow a 6 speed car and try it. Friend of mine went from 5 to 6 speed and he hated it.
be very carfeull of going form a 5 speed to a 6 speed, the ratio's are totaly different. As far as being superior in everyway, tbh there's little to no difference bar the ratios, so not sure why you think a 6 speed is better in everyway? lol (but that opinion, so we can argue abut it all day lol)
I drive a 5 speed ppg and a 6 speed sti box on a regular basis (my car and my dads), and tbh i hate the 6 speed ratio's, always running out of revs and having to change gear, i find the longer ratios are much better to drive and the wine ooo ooo ooo.
i think JGM was selling his 5 speed PPG box for about 2k.
as far as which ratios are better, well realy depends what you wanna do with it, drag, track street only etc etc.
my advice is try and borrow a 6 speed car and try it. Friend of mine went from 5 to 6 speed and he hated it.
28 January 2011, 01:57 PM
#23
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woa there horsey,,,,,
be very carfeull of going form a 5 speed to a 6 speed, the ratio's are totaly different. As far as being superior in everyway, tbh there's little to no difference bar the ratios, so not sure why you think a 6 speed is better in everyway? lol (but that opinion, so we can argue abut it all day lol)
I drive a 5 speed ppg and a 6 speed sti box on a regular basis (my car and my dads), and tbh i hate the 6 speed ratio's, always running out of revs and having to change gear, i find the longer ratios are much better to drive and the wine ooo ooo ooo.
i think JGM was selling his 5 speed PPG box for about 2k.
as far as which ratios are better, well realy depends what you wanna do with it, drag, track street only etc etc.
my advice is try and borrow a 6 speed car and try it. Friend of mine went from 5 to 6 speed and he hated it.
be very carfeull of going form a 5 speed to a 6 speed, the ratio's are totaly different. As far as being superior in everyway, tbh there's little to no difference bar the ratios, so not sure why you think a 6 speed is better in everyway? lol (but that opinion, so we can argue abut it all day lol)
I drive a 5 speed ppg and a 6 speed sti box on a regular basis (my car and my dads), and tbh i hate the 6 speed ratio's, always running out of revs and having to change gear, i find the longer ratios are much better to drive and the wine ooo ooo ooo.
i think JGM was selling his 5 speed PPG box for about 2k.
as far as which ratios are better, well realy depends what you wanna do with it, drag, track street only etc etc.
my advice is try and borrow a 6 speed car and try it. Friend of mine went from 5 to 6 speed and he hated it.
Anyway, yes i agree that in some cases a 5 speed box is more suitable (i.e. drag racing etc), which is why we were discussing which 6 speed box's ratios (uk or jdm) would suit his needs best, if his engine is built to redline at 7000rpm then a jdm 6 speed's ratio might be a bit too short. Also in h4rry's case, he wanted the most cost efficient way to upgrade his drivetrain, which got us thinking that a 6 speed swap might make the most sense, as it comes with the stronger diff, shafts etc all together.
That said, i do think that PPGs are quite special really.
but they do cost money if new? Oh, and i think the whine goes, eeeeee, clunk (shift) eeeeeee, clunk (shift) eeeeeeee!
28 January 2011, 10:06 PM
#24
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i'll take you out in mine and you can listen lol
i got mine new about 4 years ago, they've since put the prices up even further
im not sure how one of clinic gearkits compare against a 6 speed, risk with going second hand of course is do you know exactly what your getting? its a toss up as you say, cost against benefit and budget
loli got mine new about 4 years ago, they've since put the prices up even further
im not sure how one of clinic gearkits compare against a 6 speed, risk with going second hand of course is do you know exactly what your getting? its a toss up as you say, cost against benefit and budget
30 January 2011, 11:06 AM
#25
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uh oh! have i started an argument boys???
I really dont know what i want to be honest guys however i have always thought that going down the 6 speed route would always be the most cost efficient, as it is stronger and you can get one for 1.8K ish....
However i would love a ppg set up but have never found anything that would be in the right ballpark.
I am totally lost in the world of gearboxes and am basically looking for someone to be able to tell me which boxes i could fit into my car. I would love to have the ppg for a few 1/4 mile runs etc, however i think after what i have learnt since starting this thread is that the 6 spped would suit me more as i will be using the car almost every day and want to do a few track days etc and i think (assume) the 6 speed will give me best everyday driving along with the strength needed when i want to "give it some"
im mobile at the moment but will watch the vids later when im home.
Once again cheers for all the help thus far gents!!!
I really dont know what i want to be honest guys however i have always thought that going down the 6 speed route would always be the most cost efficient, as it is stronger and you can get one for 1.8K ish....
However i would love a ppg set up but have never found anything that would be in the right ballpark.
I am totally lost in the world of gearboxes and am basically looking for someone to be able to tell me which boxes i could fit into my car. I would love to have the ppg for a few 1/4 mile runs etc, however i think after what i have learnt since starting this thread is that the 6 spped would suit me more as i will be using the car almost every day and want to do a few track days etc and i think (assume) the 6 speed will give me best everyday driving along with the strength needed when i want to "give it some"
im mobile at the moment but will watch the vids later when im home.
Once again cheers for all the help thus far gents!!!
30 January 2011, 01:03 PM
#26
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30 January 2011, 07:13 PM
#27
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Im afraid i dont understand the videos too much as they are only talking about the differences then showing what adjustments have been made to each settings but i dont know the full spec of the boxes been used etc..... they are also showing differnces using differnent suspension settings and other chassis improvements.... sorry for my stupidity guys.
Dropping back a few posts, am i right in saying that if i dont go down the DCCD route (Which im not going to becuase of the technical problems that can be encountered) i can change the diffs at a later date to get the best set up for tarmac (i.e. everyday driving and track days)
Dropping back a few posts, am i right in saying that if i dont go down the DCCD route (Which im not going to becuase of the technical problems that can be encountered) i can change the diffs at a later date to get the best set up for tarmac (i.e. everyday driving and track days)
31 January 2011, 01:14 AM
#28
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Dropping back a few posts, am i right in saying that if i dont go down the DCCD route (Which im not going to becuase of the technical problems that can be encountered) i can change the diffs at a later date to get the best set up for tarmac (i.e. everyday driving and track days)
Anyway, yes you are right. You can get go the non DCCD route and upgrade the diffs later on to suit the type of driving you want (circuit, gymkhana etc)
31 January 2011, 02:32 AM
#29
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Those vids show you that the fat lardy new age cars are quicker than the lighter more nimble classics but it could have something to do with the gear ratio's
6 speed v 5 speed, tbh a UK 5 speed gearbox ratio is horrid, it has lovely gaps in there that you need 350bhp to cover, the 6 speed with 276bhp makes for a better driver, its similar to a type r gearbox but with an extra gear, its not high revving, no matter what people say, to give you a demonstration, my Spec C revs to 3k at 70mph, my mates ford focus revs to 3.5k at 70mph, which is the higher revving (and more annoying)?
It all depends where the power band is, and your nicely in it at 3k on a twin scroll car
PPG v 6 speed....
Tidgy is going to kill me but they are not as strong as the 6 speed boxes, neither the gears or the casing, and it suffers one horrid issue, it uses the standard 5th gear which makes it weak, and the gear that normally goes on the ppg's is...... yup you have it, 5th, and it normally knackers the entire box up 
Not sure on the scooby clinic gearset though? that may be all their own gear set which would be a better option, still more expensive new than a 2nd hand 6 speeder, though cheaper than a new 6 speed gearbox by a good couple of k
Tony
but it could have something to do with the gear ratio's 6 speed v 5 speed, tbh a UK 5 speed gearbox ratio is horrid, it has lovely gaps in there that you need 350bhp to cover, the 6 speed with 276bhp makes for a better driver, its similar to a type r gearbox but with an extra gear, its not high revving, no matter what people say, to give you a demonstration, my Spec C revs to 3k at 70mph, my mates ford focus revs to 3.5k at 70mph, which is the higher revving (and more annoying)?
It all depends where the power band is, and your nicely in it at 3k on a twin scroll car
PPG v 6 speed....
Tidgy is going to kill me
but they are not as strong as the 6 speed boxes, neither the gears or the casing, and it suffers one horrid issue, it uses the standard 5th gear which makes it weak, and the gear that normally goes on the ppg's is...... yup you have it, 5th, and it normally knackers the entire box up Not sure on the scooby clinic gearset though? that may be all their own gear set which would be a better option, still more expensive new than a 2nd hand 6 speeder, though cheaper than a new 6 speed gearbox by a good couple of k
Tony
02 February 2011, 04:24 PM
#30
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6 speed route it is then, anyone know of any for sale anywhere i can get my ahnds on. With the running gear too if possible as i will not be able to use my prop, rear diff and shafts will i??