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Hi all, hoping for some advice on what route to take for a new engine in my syndicate track car (does also get used on the road occasionally)
It’s a MY99 turbo 2000, currently with an internally stock engine, billet TD05-20g. FMIC, 750cc injectors, swirl pot, external oil cooler, AC delete, tubular headers, trick up-pipe, 3” exhaust. Mapped to 380bhp for the last year or so. (Sat on fully adjustable track suspension, handles amazingly well!)
Anyway, it’s been using more and more oil over the last year and its now considerably down on compression (range of 58-95psi!). Seeing as it’s done 155k miles and 3 years of track work I’m not surprised and knew this was inevitable.
Not looking to make big power, 350-400 is fine. More interested in a strong, reliable engine that’s got early spool, good torque and drivability. That said, might be nice to have an engine that’s capable of more in the future once we’ve upgraded the 5 speed box to something stronger.
So… my thoughts are of going for a 2.1 stoker build with forged piston & rods, RCM head gaskets, ACL comp bearings, standard 79mm crankshaft, 11mm oil pump and a baffled sump.
Unless anyone has any better suggestions?
My main questions are these:
1) Is it going to be worth reusing the existing open deck block or should I stump up for a SCD block? (I’m yet to inspect the bores so might be mute point)
2) Also, at what power level do you need to use thicker head studs? I recall its about 500bhp? If so I wont need to right?
3) As the heads need a rebuild anyway should I look at upgrading components in the heads? Valves, cams, springs etc?
4) If I do go down the stroker route, whats the rough premium to get a reliable engine builder to put it together for us? Tempted to do it myself, as am a competent spanner spinner and know I'm capable of assembling an engine if I can get the right information about correct tolerances (any sources for this?)
Ok, probably enough of a brain dump for now! Thanks in advance 😊
Here's a snap from Cadwell of the affectionately named "Track Rat" (note the various shades of silver!)
2.1 stroker all day long cheaper to build and gives good torque and power with the right set up.Could get the block sleeved for added strength Alyn of ASperformance is the man for this,Definitely upgrade your Valves and springs if your heads need doing cams would be nice to do if your looking really "BIG" power but not necessary.Cost as the saying goes'How longs a piece of string"Either way get someone with good skills Companies that come to mind, Scooby Clinic my go to tuner, other companies Roger Clark,Engine tuner etc....SJ.
I forgot the head studs question,Roger Clarke do some 11mm extreme which are good at around 450+ but anymore power they recommend using the bigger studs your heads will have to be machined to fit 14/12 14/14 head studs etc.....SJ.
I would get in touch with Finch motor sports he is much less expensive than people think , ive done 60k on one of his motors with the occasional bit of abuse.
I would get in touch with Finch motor sports he is much less expensive than people think , ive done 60k on one of his motors with the occasional bit of abuse.
this ^^^
I would definitely have a chat with Paul Finch.
I run a reliable 2.1 in a classic track car (480 - 500hp ish) so this side of 500.
Sounds like you are going down the right route.
I have tried built 2.1s and 2.5s. For track the 2.1 is better
I would go for a Closed Deck Block if you can with the 79mm crank
Oil pump depends on variables - but a 11mm has worked for me.
11mm ARP head studs have done the job.
Group N baffled sump has worked fine but I think I am getting to the limits of what a wet system will do.
The standard classic heads are not up to it. So If you can find V4/V3 Sti heads - use them they have most aggressive cam profile of any classic head. Mine are rebuilt with supertec valves ect
Or use a set of new age heads.
It worth upgrading to new age coil packs
Plugs are 8s
Think about the fuelling given the baffle problems in a standard Subaru tank. I have Detuchwerks 350lph lift pump mated to a swirl pot, filter and bosch 044 pump. It is definately worth having some kind of peace of mind set up.
I see you have an oil cooler. managing flow out the back is as important as what air hits the front.
750 injectors will flow enough. But the quality of the spray pattern varies so make sure they are brand that has a good pattern and get them checked.
That's all I can think off off the top of my head - some pointers.
At the end of the day talk to your builder. They don't come better than Paul Finch so let him guide with respects to the spec.
Thanks for all the answers and advise chaps.
OK sounds like I'm on the right track with a 2.1 then
I'll have a chat with the firms mentioned and get some quotes in. But I didn't think Scooby Clinic had a very good reputation these days? Have I got the end of the stick there?
Incidently RCM are 15mins down the road so that would be handy, but I fear they'll probably be the most expensive option. God their workshop is a dream though.
Anyone got experiance of buying stroker kits from Advance Automotives? I've had various parts from them in the past, but this is a different ball game.
I forgot to mention in the OP, but we have already converted to newage coil on plug ignition. And for fueling, we currently have a Walbro255 lift pump, swirl pot (in the engine bay, might move it) going into a 044 (obv with filters where required).
Steve, your car is fantastic. I actually already have a few photos of it on my laptop for inspiration!
Thanks again
Thanks for all the answers and advise chaps.
OK sounds like I'm on the right track with a 2.1 then
I'll have a chat with the firms mentioned and get some quotes in. But I didn't think Scooby Clinic had a very good reputation these days? Have I got the end of the stick there?
Incidently RCM are 15mins down the road so that would be handy, but I fear they'll probably be the most expensive option. God their workshop is a dream though.
Anyone got experiance of buying stroker kits from Advance Automotives? I've had various parts from them in the past, but this is a different ball game.
I forgot to mention in the OP, but we have already converted to newage coil on plug ignition. And for fueling, we currently have a Walbro255 lift pump, swirl pot (in the engine bay, might move it) going into a 044 (obv with filters where required).
Steve, your car is fantastic. I actually already have a few photos of it on my laptop for inspiration!
Thanks again
You know people can blow things well out of proportion, thats the situation with Scooby Clinic i use them all of the time and they have been taking care of my car for many years now....and i would personally recommend anyone to use them for their experience when it comes to engine building,mapping,even paint work they do the lot and have the correct facilities to do so.Also Cath at Advanced Automotive run a very trustworthy business when I was purchasing my build parts I purchased at least 70% from there some RCM parts as well cheaper then what RCM sell them for their selves so you will be completely fine ordering build parts from there.SJ.
Last edited by stonejedi; 13 January 2020 at 01:22 PM.
or 2.33? i would advise picking who you want to do the work and go through requirements and spec with them, plus evaluate your goals. make sure they have experience with track and race cars as they are very different to road cars in spec and build criteria.
If you build for 400, are you going to want to push 500 at a later date and regret specing it lower now?
or 2.33? i would advise picking who you want to do the work and go through requirements and spec with them, plus evaluate your goals. make sure they have experience with track and race cars as they are very different to road cars in spec and build criteria.
If you build for 400, are you going to want to push 500 at a later date and regret specing it lower now?
I hear what you're saying but the higher you push the power the shorter and shorter the component lives get and the more and more £££ is required. Given that its a track toy, not a race car and we're not interested in having xxxBHP for pub bragging rights, we'd rather have a bit less power with early spool and lower build/running costs.
You know people can blow things well out of proportion, thats the situation with Scooby Clinic i use them all of the time and they have been taking care of my car for many years now....and i would personally recommend anyone to use them for their experience when it comes to engine building,mapping,even paint work they do the lot and have the correct facilities to do so.Also Cath at Advanced Automotive run a very trustworthy business when I was purchasing my build parts I purchased at least 70% from there some RCM parts as well cheaper then what RCM sell them for their selves so you will be completely fine ordering build parts from there.SJ.
Thanks for all the input Stonejedi. First hand knowledge/experience its always good to hear rather than conjecture and hearsay!
Thanks for all the answers and advise chaps.
OK sounds like I'm on the right track with a 2.1 then
I'll have a chat with the firms mentioned and get some quotes in. But I didn't think Scooby Clinic had a very good reputation these days? Have I got the end of the stick there?
Incidently RCM are 15mins down the road so that would be handy, but I fear they'll probably be the most expensive option. God their workshop is a dream though.
Anyone got experiance of buying stroker kits from Advance Automotives? I've had various parts from them in the past, but this is a different ball game.
I forgot to mention in the OP, but we have already converted to newage coil on plug ignition. And for fueling, we currently have a Walbro255 lift pump, swirl pot (in the engine bay, might move it) going into a 044 (obv with filters where required).
Steve, your car is fantastic. I actually already have a few photos of it on my laptop for inspiration!
Thanks again
Hi Jonny
You could go for a 2.33. IF you can find a block and one that is a reasonable price, as loosely the internals are the same price for both set ups. I would build for a spec way over 500hp and then run it around 480/490hp ish. For example/Hypotheticaly say most your components will make 600hp a few 580ish heads you guess might run 560. Say injectors you guess might max out at 550. Call 550 your limit and then detune from that say to 490hp. Focus on the combination of things - that will get you better throttle response/spool up not the BHP figure, thats for slower road cars lol
Everyone focuses on the builder. The quality of the machine work is just as important. If you do not go with Paul Finch find out what machine shop will do the work on the block and heads ect.
If you want advice what works and doesn't with brakes and suspension spec and set up let me know at somepoint.
Oil I swear by Silverline Synonic 10/50. It is not well known but withstands higher temps ect that the known brands.
A few more pics to keep you motivated
Cheers
Steve
And Stockcar above - (Alyn at ASPerformance) is also a good place for parts - I buy my brake pads from him.
Last edited by Steve Whitehorn; 15 January 2020 at 01:31 AM.
Nothing wrong with a street car mate i Agree with you about the Machining work,but any engine builder worth their mustard would never throw a engine together without making sure that 'ALL' the parts used was up to the job, thats why getting feedback from previous customers is always the way to go.SJ.
Some good advice here, hope you don't all mind me nicking some of it as it's prevalent to the same question I asked in the thread reference 'Safe 500whp'
Stockcar, I get the feeling I've missing some meaning from your posts. At first I thought you were just being a bit tongue in cheek, but are you saying you work for a engine machining/assembly firm/ solo outfit?
If your looking to do track work, I would be looking into a dry sump system
For ultimate piece of mind yes I totally agree. But unfortunately our budget doesnt extend to a dry sump system. Nor does the cost/benifit ratio work.
Given that we're just doing trackdays, not racing or time attack and its survived 3 years of track use with a stock sump I think it'll be ok with just a baffled sump. Hope so anyway!
The RCM system is the one to go for. It’s basically an updated version of the Zen system designed by Paul Blaimire. It’s tried and tested.
Having used these cars on track quite a bit, I wouldn’t do it again without a dry sump. Only my opinion.
Thats also why I now track an M3 instead
The RCM system is the one to go for. It’s basically an updated version of the Zen system designed by Paul Blaimire. It’s tried and tested.
Having used these cars on track quite a bit, I wouldn’t do it again without a dry sump. Only my opinion.
Thats also why I now track an M3 instead
I agree with you in that, that is the dry system to go for.
Not to disagree with you, as a dry system is better than a wet system. Personally I have not had a problem with running a wet system so far to date, even with slicks on. I am a bit surprised at that. So a wet system can work ....although if you have big budget then the RCM dry system is the one to go for.
M3 has a better chassis as a start point - which one do you track
Cheers
Steve
12 January 2020, 01:30 PM
Most suitable engine build for track car- 2.1?
Either way get someone with good skills Companies that come to mind, Scooby Clinic my go to tuner, other companies Roger Clark,Engine tuner etc....SJ.
.Also Cath at Advanced Automotive run a very trustworthy business when I was purchasing my build parts I purchased at least 70% from there some RCM parts as well cheaper then what RCM sell them for their selves so you will be completely fine ordering build parts from there
