T-uk

After this point the MD304 annihilates the TD04

talk about stating the obvious

[Edited by T-uk - 12/8/2002 6:38:42 PM]

Fuzz

Ok, so this is going to be the next phase of development on the old sccob and is a fair way away at the moment as I've just spent
£384 on some exhaust bits
£895 on some Defi gauges
£1360 on Link ECU
but for reference purposes what is the better front mount intercooler, not too fussed about price at this stage but must be efficient, high flow and fit well.(not asking too much then )
I see mark, david, Steve and john having a chat about rubbing of pipework etc so from this, which front mount have you bought (yes I know you built your own david , may end up doing this in the end).
Does Mark A supply any different types ?

cheers for the advice / links etc.


Edit : Oh and must be fookin huuuuuuge


Andy

[Edited by Fuzz - 11/30/2002 2:44:09 PM]

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

HKS or Blitz IMHO as I've been wobbling on about over on this thread: http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?threadid=153935

I run the HKS FMIC kit on my car it is huge, flows very well and wasn't too expensive (about 1100 all in but I fitted it myself)

But before you go there if you have a UK model, I would look at a bigger turbo and injectors before you go to the FMIC because you will need them then!

I'm sure Mr. Aigin can help you spend your money wisely

Fuzz

ahh ! ok forget the front mount for now then

what about fuel rail mods ! is the 00MY in need of any ?


writes "big turbo" on Christmas list

Andy

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

What you want is a nice MD304 Turbo from Lateral Performance...that will do the job nicely...along with one of the uprated fuel pumps from them as well Oh and a new pressure reg...Mark's also the man to talk to about the fuel rails...

With an MY00 you already have 440cc injectors which should be ok until the FMIC goes on, 550's being the next step up

Tell you a cheap ish mod worth doing, get the exhaust manifold ported...oh and water injection can help as well...

Looks like Santa may be making a visit to Bushy to pic up some bits from Lateral

Fuzz

you partly banged the nail on the head there

Got the up rated pump already...from Mark

and the manifolds are being ported by myself when Scoobysport finally get there act together and send me the bits I ordereed on the 11th Nov [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] (up pipe and straight through centre)
no point taking it all apart twice.
got a rr run sorted for jan 4th so I'm chasing the calendar so to speak.

cheers
Andy

Edit : to ask "any reference material on the MD304 then" ?
other than marks of course



[Edited by Fuzz - 12/1/2002 5:01:01 PM]

[Edited by Fuzz - 12/1/2002 5:01:42 PM]

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

I'll send you some info when I get home...

Fuzz

cheers Tim

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

Andy, YHM

Fuzz

< Bill and Ted mode on >

Bodacious dude !

< Bill and Ted mode off >


Andy

David_Wallis

AFAIK thats the turbo steve uses..

I wouldnt go pace or aps.. so looks like hks...

MY00 has phase 2 rails already.

David

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

It is the turbo i have, MD304 from Mark Aigin, i have the APS FMIC and was very happy with the performance on the standard turbo. New turbo works well with it IMHO.

<---------- Look what it gave

I also went for 550cc injectors after mailing with Tim and finding out that his injectors run at circa 96% IDC with the 440cc's, so thought i would go safe.

Happy with the APS FMIC, except for the risk of chaffing and the sh!te jubilee clips and cast alloy pipe. Thats just niggles IMHO and i think you will get niggles with any kit. The FMIC is huge as well.

You could certainly run it with the standard TD04 which i assume you have, as i did for a month before the turbo, injectors and link ecu were fitted.

Either way, you will need a good remap

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Oh, injectors went straight in to fuel rails.

MD304, err well, superb, full boost at about 3600, and about 0.5bar at 3000rpm.

You dont notice the lag because it still pulls like a bloody train, but when full boost engages, then hold onto the steering wheel.

I do approx 30000 miles a year, so wanted something that was driveable without flogging it all the time, but then had power when i really wanted it. Bingo

Very very very happy with this turbo

Kiss goodbye to £2500 to £3000 if you want turbo,FMIC and injectors.

I take it your exhaust is 3" bore from turbo back?

Fuzz

David,
I realise it has phase II rails, was just wondering if there were any mods required to these.

Steve,

No ! 2 1/2" after downpipe (yes I know it could do with the 3")

Yes ! the turbo is currently a TD04L

Thanks

Andy C

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

It will run fine then with the injectors, TD04L and exhaust, just add a FMIC then. As i said, mine ran well with the APS on for a month (2000 miles).

David_Wallis

No no mods required... They are fine as std.. (parallel feed would help..)

David

T-uk

P20,

when pulling from low revs in second and third gear,where does your car really kick from?

I drove JB's car at the weekend and found that in second,pulling from low revs and watching the rev counter it would slowly build to 3800rpm and then the turbo would start to wake up,then at about 4200 just go ballistic and take off for the red line.doing the same in third and the rev needle would slowly spin to about 3500rpm,then like in second the turbo would start to wake up but this time the rev counter needed to hit 3800 before charging for the red.in the higher gears I am sure it was getting 1bar at about 3000rpm.I might be out slightly with figure as I was having too much fun.

the point being that the only real turbo kick came at 4200 in second and 3800 in third although there was plenty boost before this.I find this a bit high for my needs,even though the reward is worth the wait,it goes like **** if you keep it on the boil .I am considering going a similar route but want to use the standard injectors,dump valve and air intake so think the md304 is a step above what I want.

I am hoping that lateral performance can come up with something different but just wonder how your car with a link goes.

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

Well, I don't know if John is running the same version of the MD304 as Steven and I (it should be) but having speant a little over a year and 25k miles with one, the second built I think, I think I know it well

In my case, admittedly with a fairly unique map (the mapper does not do this work commercially...yet...) but we only run 1.25 bar for the sake of my ratlly old engine, and in 3rd gear I reapeatedly get 1 bar of boost from 3000rpm, with peak of 1.25 from around 3400 held to the red line, tinsy bit of overboost depending on the weather.

So well suited to a 2 litre...I've always wanted to explore what this turbo can really do, but I doubt I will as the next step means more cubes, and then a bigger turbo as the 304 will be spooling up a tad too quickly

wos 69

i have just had fitted md 304 hybrid turbo, aps fmic up-rated
fuel pump, boost valve hks filter up-rated up pipe and headers
knock link and re-mapped and the difference is amazing. have not
had time to rolling road yet. i know nothing about mechanics in
fact i don't know what everything does, but i have advice all the
time from two top guys on here, one of whom will test the car and advise what;s next.i think the car is extremely fast now, but there is a lot much faster, i don't want the fastest anyway just a bit of fun.
cheers
murray.

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

t uk, i was worried about this when buying it off mark. He said, dont carried away with where you feel the kick of the turbo, ie full boost, as the MD304 will be flowing more air and cooler due to its size, IIRC.

No i have done 5000 miles since this setup went in, and TBH i only ever thing "come on" in 4th or 5th below 2000 rpm, which is daft really, because i should be expecting that, even the td04 did not pickup there.

By the time it gets to 2500 it is pulling smoothly, similar to the td04 IMO, then by 3000 its pulling fairly well, i would say about .9 bar, then by 3500-3600 its full boost of 1.25bar and you are off.

2nd and 3rd are like bloody missiles tbh, and you have to be careful, ie pull out to overtake BEFORE you put your foot down.

Due to the lower gearer it does feel as if it hits you in the back much higher up, at 3800, but it is in fact flying way before this.

Last monday, after a meeet, i approached a dual carriage way at 40mph with a pretty standard uk car on my backside, 3rd gear, 70mph limits arrives, and foot to the floor, i know he was trying to follow and keep up, but by the time i chnaged from 3rd to 4th i was well away.

Now thinking back, i think he kept with me until 3000rpm on my rev counter and then he could not. Once into 4th it was a case of goodbye

Due to the am,ount of varied driving i do i wanted my car to be very driveable, but then have crazy power when needed. This turbo, fmic, injectors, Tims up pipe, and bobs map have all helped to make it that way.

Very happy

Steven

ps Get your brakes done 1st, if you have not already.

john banks

Using some acceleration judging boost compensation code (ie trying pretty hard) with the MD304 I get:

1 bar at 2900 in 5th
1 bar at 3150 in 4th
1 bar at 3400 in 3rd
1 bar at 4000 in 2nd

I could not get 1 bar at 3000 RPM in 3rd like Tim.

Like P20 you wait to floor it until there is clear road ahead of you in 2nd and 3rd gear as it feels like it is eating road

Here are some logs from yesterday - Unscaled MAP is absolute boost pressure. First two are 2nd gear with leisurely change into 3rd. Last graph is in 3rd - again you can see the boost threshold. These were not on the flat - most were uphill, and the speedo reading is not accurate enough to take acceleration figures from.







Hope it gives you an idea - the MD304 rocks

If you look at the first graph, from 30 mph in 2nd gear you are at the top of 3rd gear in 8 seconds. This includes an unrushed gearchange and a fair area in 2nd gear from 3000 RPM where it apparently isn't doing much if you look at the boost gauge. It was also uphill

[Edited by john banks - 12/8/2002 11:27:29 AM]

john banks

This shows RPM from 2500 in 2nd gear to the red line (shows RPM against time in ms). Red line is a straight line for comparison. Nowhere in the curve is it lacking acceleration, it just smoothly gets more interesting as it comes on boost.

Boost ramp:



Accel ramp: (differentiation shows the actual acceleration of the engine speed)



This is what you feel (as pressure on your back) - it sharply but smoothly increases - this is what makes it a turbo!

T-uk

thanks all.

the md304 does indeed rock,especially on the straights but looking at jb's graphs highlight what I am feeling.remember that I am asking people to watch the rev counter more than the boost gauge.

looking at jb's graphs on page 2 for a second gear drag,shows in his first graph for rpm,that compared to the straight comparison line,the revs drop away from it and then at about 4200rpm start to move back towards the straight line.looking at the third graph for acceleration it does show the car pulling well in the high 3's but the strongest smoothest kick comes at 4200rpm,it seems far subtler on the graph but this is what my seat-o-pants meter was telling me.

as I said to mark,my feelings on the md304 is for people wanting to have the option to push their standard engine internals to the limit and do not mind changing injectors,dump valve and intake feeds to get the best from it.having driven jb's car with both td04 hybrid and md304 I think I am really after an in-between.I am after something that pulls better lower down in second and third,will never be as fast on a long straight as a md304,never get the big figures at the rolling road days but pulls better through the twisties.

john banks

T-uk, this one just for you.

I used a few drags through third gear for a certain well known TD04 car which has put in over 300 bhp and 300 lbft at the dyno, so if you like the absolute best that a TD04 can do - this is not the hybrid TD04 BTW, but I picked the best car I could possibly compare it to.

I have plotted acceleration from datalogs of RPM against my present MD304 setup. There are some errors in this technique, but I think we can say that when the MD304 reaches 1 bar it is all over for the TD04. So IMHO the crossover point is 3000 RPM in 5th, 3200 RPM in 4th, 3400 RPM in 3rd and 4000 RPM in 2nd gear. Below this point the TD04 wins. After this point the MD304 annihilates the TD04

john banks

I am being kind to the TD04, try it in 4th or 5th gear and the MD304 would look even better. I know you are worried about the knockhill hairpin, but in 2nd gear you want your front wheels straight before all that torque hits. Subarus are not known for torque steer, but the MD304 does it in 2nd and 3rd gear on slightly damp roads, 2nd gear is a beast if you are at 40 mph or more. Think you'll be at 40 mph on the exit of the Knockhill hairpin ? But you really don't want all that torque arriving until those front wheels are properly straight unless you are a complete hooligan (oh sorry )

T-uk

try it in 4th or 5th on a nice long straight or a rolling road day,I'll bet

it's not just for the hairpin,but any twisty road or track in third gear,mostly.I think with the uk gearing in third there will be a few places you need the power to pull you out of trouble and it might not be there.mind you on the grass it does not really matter

T-uk

John,

where do you get yeeeeeaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaa these days?

john banks

I'll need to collect some more data T-uk.