CirrusWRX

Goodday Ladies and Gentlemen. This is my first post here, and without confusing anybody, I need to mention that I am from the US, and while my post will be long, I certainly encourage you all to read it, and if you have any information you can provide, it would be greatly appreciated.

This past June, Prodrive USA (division on Prodrive) FINALLY released the long awaited "Prodrive Performance Packs" for the US market. This is Prodrives first real performance offering in the US. They offered 3 stages:
Stage 1 = ECU, Silicon IC hoses, back box
*Stage 2 = ECU, Silicon IC hoses, back box, 3rd cat eliminator
Stage 3 = ECU, Silicon IC hoses, back box, 3rd cat eliminator, catless uppipe, and catless downpipe

*I believe this is identical to the "Subaru UK Prodrive Equipped" WRX that you have full warranty coverage on.

The following can be found on ANY US Vendor website:
Stage 1 = 20 *WHEEL* horsepower increase
Stage 2 = 40 *WHEEL* horsepower increase
Stage 3 = 68 *WHEEL* horsepower increase

Many people purchased the Stage 2 PPP (Hereon out, I'll refer to it as PPP2) and installed it, and were very excited on their first drive. The boost had increased, the throttle response was nicer, the car was faster, and life was good... or so we thought... Then one individual did something drastic: he got a stopwatch.

He started timing his car doing various "reproduceable" tests. He was doing in-gear acceleration tests from XXmph-YYmph to eliminate any driver error. He contacted me, and I did the same. We went off of the Prodrive UK site's listing for in-gear acceleration in 4th and 5th gear going 50-70mph. We used a stopwatch and did literally hundreds of tests between the two of us. We encouraged others to do the same, and our results were astonishing-- our PPP2 equipped cars were NO faster (and in some cases SLOWER!) than STOCK Subaru WRX's!! We factored in everything: gas, climate, altitude, operator error, etc... and we all came up with the same times. According to the UK Prodrive site, *YOUR* PPP equipped cars should take 4.1 seconds to go from 50-70mph in 4th gear, and 7.4 respectively in 5th gear. My question to the UK Subaru community - HAVE YOU TRIED THIS? HAS ANYBODY VERIFIED THIS TO BE TRUE? Here in the US, we have YET to get a PPP2 equipped car to get from 50-70mph in 4th less than 5 seconds, and in 5th less than 9.5s -- this isn't operator error, folks - there is something wrong.

So some nice person in the US with a PPP2 decided that he would go and dyno his car to put this issue to rest. The results? After several hundred miles of driving with his PPP2 equipped car, he strapped down to the dyno and made a run. On this dyno, there were records of STOCK WRX's making around 170 all-wheel horsepower (awhp). What did our friend get? 174awhp. Just for kicks, he swapped out his Prodrive ECU (only) and slapped on his BONE STOCK Subaru ECU - the result? After 1 pull (without ECU learning) his car made 180awhp. Astonishing? Not really - just empirical confirmation of what we already knew.

So what happens now? We contacted Prodrive USA, figuring they would be most interested in hearing from us as there was clearly a problem. Simon Lines of Prodrive's first email back to us said, "I'm not sure I'm happy with the word 'problem' every single car we've tested on the west coast displays an increase in performance over both stock and stage 1 car..." While we certainly agree the boost is higher, and the car FEELS undoubtedly faster, the stopwatch and dyno prove otherwise for the US Spec PPP2.

Prodrive has been back and forth with us, with numerous communication anomalies. What we have found highly interesting thus far is that all of the vendors tout a ~40whp increase over a stock WRX. This is highly perplexing as the components seem identical to the UK spec PPP, and that makes barely 40 *CRANK* HP over a stock UK WRX.

We have been told that the US spec stock WRX and UK WRX will not yield the same performance figures, while they are both nearly identical in HP, torque, weight, and construction.

We have been told that the US spec PPP2 will *MATCH* the performance of a *STOCK* UK WRX, which I find utterly perplexing.

We have been told that we should NOT expect anywhere near the performance figures of that of a PPP equipped UK WRX, even though the components are, so far as I can tell, identical.

We have been told that the car was dyno'd and heavily tested in the US before being released to the public, and yet not one single person - Prodrive, or a vendor, can provide 1 single shred of evidence- a dyno plot, write-ups, delta-dash logs, GPS logs, etc...

We have asked them point-blank about all of these issues and more, and we get responses saying that we're being inflammatory, negative, and unfair. I ask "if I dyno my stock WRX, purchase a PPP2, and dyno it under the closest conditions, and DO NOT see a ~40whp increase over stock, do you feel there is no problem with this?"

Since the beginning, Prodrive USA has proved to be evasive, uncooperative, unresponsive, rude, and dishonest. They don't return emails in a timely fashion. They don't answer our questions. They post in our forums, get angry when we call their products "broken," and then STILL avoid our questions. They have YET to point-blankly admit that there even IS a problem. They claim they are testing it, but quite frankly, we've had enough, and we turn to you, our fellow Subaru FATHERS (since you've had the car for so long compared to us) for your help.

I would like to know - anybody with a PPP equipped WRX:
1. Have you ever dyno'd your car? If so, what did it make, and what do stock WRX's make on the same dyno?

2. Have you ever performed any of the road tests, and verified it against the Prodrive UK site? It's really easy - find an open, flat road, put the car in 4th or 5th gear, stay at a steady 50mph, and with your finger on the stopwatch, hit the gas, and time how long it takes to get to 70mph. Anywhere NEAR what Prodrive UK is touting?

3. Have you ever experienced a problem with Prodrive UK? Was it resolved to your satisfaction? Are they responsive when answering emails? Do they ever post on here? Do they answer your "tough" questions?

I apologize for taking up so much of your time and busting in here like I own the place, but, quite frankly, I have little where else to turn. I was (formerly, before this incident) a HUGE Prodrive fan. Everything I had read in the UK publications touted their excellence, craftsmanship, performance, etc... I was SO excited when I heard the PPP2 was coming to the US, and I salivated over the Prodrive UK website. I LOVE the sound of the muffler- the piece itself fit like it was stock, the 3rd cat replacement pipe was ingeniously designed to fit the stock heat shields. The IC hose was a perfect match - I fear the ECU is simply not even worth the metal and silicon it's made from.

Sincerely appreciate any help, direction, and support you can offer.

Fellow Subaru Enthusiast,

Kyle Mehling
Philadelphia, PA

2002 Subaru WRX Sedan
Prodrive "Performance" Pack Stage 2


Websites for reference:
http://www.prodrive-usa.com - Prodrive USA's shoddy website

http://www.spimotorsports.com - Irvine Subaru in California - touts 20, 40, and 68 whp for all the Prodrive Performance Packs

http://www.shopatmastro.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=233&1=234&2=-1 -Mastro Subaru "" "" "" ""

http://www.flat4engineering.com/products/index.htm?item268.htm - Another vendor "" "" "" ""

CirrusWRX

And just for kicks, here is the thread on NASIOC.com that started it all.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=381011

stiler83

I know you said you had taken into account everything like petrol ect but in the uk we have a higher RON rating than in the US. Our std which we as subaru drivers tend to use is 98-99.

I also note that your car is a 2002, have you been looking at Prodrives UK site which describes a 2003 UK (2004 US) spec PPP, which has more power than the older 2001-2002 UK PPP (2002-2003 US).

chiark

stiler, I don't think the petrol issue is that simple... In the best traditions of "people divided by a common language" the US definition of "octane" is different to ours. Something to do with RON/MON, or some wierd doohickeys?

So I'd personally rule that out as the source of the difference.

My personal gut feel is that the Californian emissions regs could be causing the problems? I am quite surprised that prodrive aren't being more communicative and helpful... Perhaps if you restart the discussion and ask for clarification rather than go in with all guns blazing, or even with pistol drawn (ie calling it a problem rather than a query?)

Good luck on this.

Pete Croney

http://www.prodrive-usa.com/exhaust.html

This can't be the same as what we get in the UK as a PPP, this version (PPP2) is only £795 ($1270).

chiark

yes, it would be unlike any manufacturer to make something cheaper in the US that it is over here... (cynical? me?)

The backbox looks exactly like the Prodrive backbox over here.
Pack 2 includes hosing, centre section, silicone hosing and ecu upgrade. It looks just like our PPP?

The only thing I can think of is that the ECU map will be different.

Cheers,
Nick
PS - Pete, that price would exclude sales tax, so the difference is only just over £660, or around $1000, like for like...

[Edited by chiark - 9/17/2003 11:32:27 AM]

MikeWood

This isn't my market but I would like to point out one or two things that may have a bearing on matters.

The US cars have a different mechanical specification to our WRX, the most important difference is that the wheels and tyres are a different size. I believe US cars come fitted with 205/55x16 tyres which are larger in diameter than our 215/45x17 tyres. This has the effect of raising the gearing which slows acceleration in a particular gear. In gear incremental speeds are always measured as the car goes through the speed range at full throttle, not from a constand speed. In other words a 50-70 increment will have started at 40mph so that the car is accelerating hard by the time it breaks 50mph. This is how every performance test is done here by all the press and manufacturers as well as how I did the figures we publish for UK03MY WRX PPP using a GPS data logger.

Another thing which will have a huge impact on how the engine performs is intake temperature. If it's too high, boost will be reduced to ensure the engine is still safe with the PPP. The std ECU does not have this protection. Running the car on a chassis dyno without proper monitoring will inevitably mean that the intake temps get too high which will give less than optimal figures. As an example, normally a WRX will run intake temps 1 or 2 degrees C above ambient but in the confines of a dyno and the way cars are set up prior to running it is very easy to see 20 degrees increse or more when the runs start. On a 23 degree ambient day I measured a car that had been parked for over 2 hours that had an intake temp of 44 degrees. If you aren't monitoring intake temps and getting this down to reasonable levels (sub 40 degrees C) then you are wasting your time on a chassis dyno.

Simon Lines has been on vacation for the last couple of weeks but I believe some testing has been undertaken again in his absence, the results should be available soon.

Regards

Mike

chiark

Hi Mike,

Not wishing to take this thread off at a tangent...
My car feels like it actively reduces boost/does something on a hot day - or am I imagining it? (MY03 WRX UK, no PPP)

Cheers,
Nick.

Pete Croney

Mike

I don't think its tyres as the difference is only 1.1% in circumference. Intake temps will play a part though and the temps at the rollers need to be compared with the original data to be of any meaning.

If these guys aren't doing the "accelerate through" test then they will never achieve the test results.

I've seen intake temps of 80degC when sitting in traffic, but these fall to 30 something within a 100m of moving off. I haven't measured temps after the intercooler, but suspect the difference is much reduced at this point.

Nick

The temperature compensation tables are in the std ECU, but they don't have any values present (ie compensation is not activated). PPP maps do put values into these tables.

The car feels slower on a hot day as there is simply less oxygen present.

chiark

Pete, thanks a lot for that - most appreciated. I realise hot air is less dense but the other day with my foot down it really felt like my car backed off boost. Could have been anything, from bad petrol to a malfunctioning **** dynamometer

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

All I would suggest is that I imagine that Prodrive's figures are gained using accurate timing gear, whereas the roll-on tests by the poster are being done using the speedo only. So a 50-70 is likely to be a 45-65, so starting from a lower speed at a different point in the rev-range might have the effect of providing different readings due to torque & bhp available...

jmgelba

Id like to add my 2 cents/pence to this.

Coming from Nottingham originally and owning a bugeye WRX wagon, to moving to Michigan and owning another bugeye WRX Wagon, i have noticed a hell of a lot of difference in performance, handling and general driveability. I loved my uk car but feel totally let down by virtually the same car in the US. Top end is abysmal. I get regulary embarresed by much "lesser" cars.
It just dosent feel as composed on the road, the back end has a tendancy to drift when the road is bumpy, and i get wheel hop over larger bumps. The car will actually squat down on the side the bump was at. Never had any of these characteristics in the UK model.
I, like Cirrus, was waiting for the PPP to be available, but reading his post has made me think otherwise about spending that sort of cash on a package with potential issues. Also, the PPP in the US is not warranty covered and will infact make it hard for you to get any warranty work done, as the US dealers are a royal pain in the *** with warrenty issues.
This leads me on to another point were the US market is getting stiffed. The transmissions in the US cars are failing left right and centre. Subaru US are not covering many of them under warrenty due to "driver error," or "abnormal abuse", or "street racing"
Ive done 23759 miles in my 02. Ive had 1st, 3rd and 5th gears replaced. 1st and 3rd have been done TWICE!! 5th gear baulk ring replaced, and im on my second clutch. I drive 810 miles a week to and from work and i do not drive it hard otherwise id be paying a fortune in fuel costs.
The US market is learning about this car, and there are a lot of knowledgeable folks on the various forums (www.nasioc.com) but there isnt the depth of knowledge present compared to the UK market. I think if some of the UK companies were able to supply their products and knowledge to the US market, they would see very favo(u)rable returns.
I for one, missing the UK market, would love to be able to get my hands on the bits available over here. If i could make my car feel like my old one, id be a happy chappy with Subaru again.

Ok, rant over, sorry for the long post and spelling mistakes!

russell hayward

Well there is an ECUtek dealer over there, was looking at their site the other day.

CirrusWRX

All - Thanks for your responses so far in this matter. Let me see if I can try and answer stuff to keep the conversation going.

1. I do agree we are now acting like royal jerks, and this is simply because we have been working on this issue since late June without resolve. As I stated, nobody has yet to come back at us, point blank and say, "yes - there is a problem." We were also assured time and again that this upgrade had been widely tested in both the US and UK, and that it was ready for prime time. Our gut instinct is that somebody (or a few people) are not telling the truth - this is why we're being so hard. We would have had NO problems if, from the beginning, we were told, "there appears to be a mistake on our part..." but nobody has owned up to any mistakes as of yet, so we are at our wits end.

2. Gas - I am hoping somebody can show me the way on this, but in all my research, I have yet to find ANY information that would lead me to believe that the UK Subaru owners have access to some magic, super-potent go-fast formula. As was mentioned, read up on RON/MON/PON and you will (should) find that the gas really isn't that different. In the US, we use PON, and you will find that our US 91 Octane is roughly the UK 95 RON, whereas on the east coast, I have access to 94 US PON Octane, which roughly equates to 98 UK RON. It was also stated very early on by a Prodrive employee (I have the email, and the post on NASIOC) that they believe 91 RON is roughly on par with your 96.5 PON. I think this is overstating it slightly from what I read, but this was supposedly obtained on a dyno, so I'll believe a dyno over my paper-dyno.

Also, in the US, the California "spec" WRX isn't any different than a normla WRX. For some vehicles manufacturered in the US, when you buy the SAME CAR in California, and then go buy it in New York, the car will have two different fuel ratings, two different HP ratings, etc... This is NOT the case for the WRX since it is already an ultra-low emissions vehicle from the factory (ULEV)

I am first to admit that gas plays a big role in turbo charged cars, but I don't think the difference in octane can explain the lackluster performance by itself, nor in combination with the other items mentioned below - read on please.


3. Different parts. I find this VERY hard to believe that there is a different muffler, 3rd cat, and IC hose for the US market. I believe all piping diameters are the same, as are the dimensions. From a manufacturing standpoint, why would there be? Therefore, I believe it's the same overall kit, with the exception of the ECU. And I apologize to say, "yes - I think it is the same kit and it IS much cheaper even with our tax"

4. Wheels+Tires - I appreciate the comment, but feel this one can be answered very easily. First, as was stated, the difference is roughly 1.1% - this will not affect the speedometer or gearing to a noticeable point. Second, the stock 16" wheels on the US car are lighter, and less rotating mass of roughly the same size (1.1%) will ALWAYS yeild better performance than a heavier wheel+tire combo. The people who (for some reason) drag race their WRX's over here will tell you point blank - want to lower your 1/4 mile times? Take off those 17" bling wheels and put on the stock 16"ers and be amazed at your times. Prodrive recommends 17" wheels on their website for the UK WRX, so I have to assume those performance figures are based on a WRX with 17" (heaver than our US) wheels.

In comment to the acceleration tests - it doesn't matter whether or not you get on the gas before 50mph and "accelerate through," or just as you mash the throttle, in my opinion. The RPM's in 4th and 5th gear are so low that the car is barely able to make boost, so you're not "acclerating through" - try it, and you will see. We have done the tests (by hand, I admit) by starting at 40mph, and mashing the throttle, then starting the stopwatch AFTER the needle sweeps PAST 50mph. If we were talking about .5 .8 or heck, even 1 second difference, I don't think I would take issue with it -- we're talking about almost a 3 second difference. Tire size, human error, speedo calibration, -- I don't think a 3 second CONSISTENT difference will be shown.

And I do have an issue that the speedometer is 5mph LOW at 50 and 70mph. I realize the accuracy of the speedo around the 100+mph area is somewhat shoddy, but if it's 5mph low on the dash, then there is a more serious problem at hand. Just for fun, I'll go out today and try and measure the times from 55-75 mph (per my speedo) and see what the results are. I also want to mention that I have an HKS Type I turbo timer which hooks into my ECU to read the RPM and MPH off the ECU -- it ALWAYS reads a little lower than the needle by about 1-2mph, and my measuring (truly) has ALWAYS gone off of my turbo timer, NOT my speedo. However, I tried both and my results were within .3 of one another each time, therefore, I do not believe our speedo's are inaccurate enough to provide useful testing data.

For the 5th gear test, (the one I am most skeptical of) We're barely able to reach 10 seconds - somebody got a 9.5, but we have to throw that into the "exception" pile. This isn't .5 seconds difference, - this is 2.4s difference! I am just stunned that Prodrive was able to go from 50-70mph in 5th gear at a reliable 7.4 seconds - We have had people in 280HP+ *crank* WRX's try it, and they're getting around 8s on the average! So, I was curious if any of you could try it out and see what you get. It just boggles the mind that there is THAT large of a discrepancy.

Also, as far as errors and discrepancies, I'm the first to admit that a stopwatch isn't the most accurate piece of equipement. But we're careful to take this into account-- in fact, we have ALL gotten roughly the same times - somebody in Colorado (high altitude) gets slightly slower times than I- he runs 93 octane, and I'm at sea level at 94 - even in our "unscientific stopwatch" tests, we're right on par with one user over/below another. Again, if this were split second difference, I have every reason to believe it's operator error - I am just in disbelief that Prodrive attained those performance figures, listed on their website for the 2003 WRX - which, by the way, to my knowledge, does not have any increased HP (or negligable) to the 2001/2002MY. Yes, the body style did change, but to my knowledge, performance should be nearly identical to the 2001+2002 stated performance. Please correct me on this, and point me in the right direction if I'm mistaken.

...cntd...

CirrusWRX

5. Intake temperature. Agreed that this can be a problem, but during our testing it doesn't seem to matter if it's 90 degrees F and humid or 55F and dry. The differences are there (maybe .3 seconds slower?), but no way is it the 2.6 "missing seconds" in question. We have run the gamut of climates with our testing. Some people are using "gtech road dyno's" and coming up with starkingly similar results to the individual who actually dyno'd his car. While I agree a dyno is not the be-all-end-all, the fact of the matter is that an intake temperature will NOT be 20F different on a dyno due to the cooling fans used on the engine+IC. Slightly higher? Sure. 30awhp impact? I say no.

I agree that ANY turbo car is slower on a hot (and humid) day, but I find it hard to believe that the performance will be staggeringly different on a cool night - hence the reason we all performed the same tests in all different climates and got very similar results. I tried again last night because it was 58F outside and the humidity was very low. I do 1/8th mile testing with my HKS Type I (this is more "driver dependent" but the day since I installed it in my car, it has been accurate to ITSELF). Last night, I was SURE my car felt faster because of the cool weather. According to the HKS? Nada - exact same times I have been getting since installing the PPP2. I ran on hot nights, cool nights, rain, etc... and the differences have been within a 1 second range and 1mph EVERY time. I used to get a reliable 9.6x @ 74mph trap speed (yes, very slow, but this is ME driving, doing a conservative launch!) now with the PPP2, I have YET to break 9.7x @ 72mph on the same road, same direction, same driver, no other mods. I popped my STOCK ECU back in, ran, and got a trap of 73mph after 5 minutes of driving - hence my skepticism of the US Prodrive ECU.


6. I didn't mean to point to Simon like he was the "bad guy." Quite the opposite - he was skeptical at first, but has been the most helpful thus far. However, it's the guys over at Prodrive USA that have been the most unreasonable people to deal with. They don't answer emails, they come and post comments, and then don't respond to them when asked! There are differences between what "they" say and what Simon says, so we don't know who to believe! We get "yelled at" for being impatient, and not letting them take their time, but they rarely provide meaningful information. I have asked the question time and again, "If I dyno my stock WRX, then install the PPP2 and dyno it on the same day, same ECU learning, etc... all else being equal, will I see ~40whp increase over stock?" -silence- This is my arguement. If they say, "well, it's performing as best as we can get it" and I PURCHASED the product with THAT as the information, then I have no valid arguement. BUt you can all see for yourself, every vendor selling these things says 40 more to the wheels. Therefore, I want to know why there isn't a "problem" if I dyno my car and see less than a 40whp increase.

I sincerely appreciate everybody's input, and didn't mean to try and "dispell" all your ideas- simply, to point out that I am glad you thought of similar things we have covered during our 2+ month thought and troubleshooting process.

Two last question's that came up from another UK board - what peak boost PSI are you UK users seeing with the PPP2?? We were told we should see somewhere in the range of 17psi- I have only seen a SPIKE to 15.5 on occasion, and sometimes 15psi - more often 14.5 peak boost day to day. There was talk about some "incorrect restrictors" that get replaced, but no mention of that since the initial testing of the PPP2's (?)

And the second - is there a "pre-turbo" cat in the stock UK WRX? I think we call it an "uppipe" (From the manifold to the turbo) not sure if that's the correct term, but I just wanted to make sure since we have been told there IS a pre-turbo catalytic converter on a UK spec WRX. If there ISN'T a cat in the uppipe, then I can swallow Prodrives performance figures on the UK site a lot easier, as the turbo might be spooling much sooner at 50mph in 5th gear than our cars. If not, then I am just puzzled how they can reach 70mph in 7.4 seconds.

Finally, am I too assume that nobody with a UK PPP2 car has ever taken it to a dyno, or attempted any of this road testing? We have found time and again, especially when it comes to performance modifications, that the "butt dyno" is highly inaccurate. People claim they can "feel" 10hp - bogus claim, in my opinion, and I admit I 'fell for it' the first time too. Increase the engine volume, and I am willing to bet MOST people will say they "feel" more power, when, in fact, there is none. I'm not doubting that the PPP UK cars are working 100% properly, but I would love to hear from somebody with a 2003 PPP UK car who can go from ~50-70mph in less than 9 seconds. And if you can do it in less than 8, then you are the key to our problem(s). If you can't get much below 10 seconds, and if I were you, then I would want to know how Prodrive attained those numbers.

Top Gear magazine's Tom Stewart was kind enough to email me back, since he tested and wrote the article in the June 2003 issue on the Impreza WRX Estate Prodrive car. I was astonished his performance figures were EXACTLY that of the Prodrive website, and asked if he actually timed the car or just repeated their numbers - he said he only re-posted Subaru UK and Prodrive's claims, and did NOT get to test the car. So I ask the general question (again) are there ANY performance data, empirical or "layman's stopwatch," that verify Prodrive's claims, as listed on their website for the UK PPP equipped cars? So far the only data I can find is listed on Prodrive's website - is it possible that NOBODY out there has actually tried to verify their claims!?

thanks very much for your help thus far, and appreciate any more ideas/thoughts/comments/flames/rants, etc...
Kyle

CirrusWRX

I also want to add that we were just updated with some info that there will most likely be a "public announcement" within the next few days, that should be somewhere on the Prodrive USA site. It is purported to contain LOTS of information. Regardless, I am still interested to hear any results, ideas, insults, suggestion, etc... from the PPP UK users.

stu200

iTrader: (1)

Cirrus,

Couple of points for reference.

Yes, the up-pipe has a cat in it on the bug-eye.

14.5 PSI of boost is 1 bar, which is what my (relatively) stock WRX peaks at day-to-day.

Everything else is a bit too "oily-techie" for me, though

Diablo

Very interesting thread

Couple of points I've noted this far.

You say the US spec is an ultra low emission vehicle. Without knowing the parameters in use, I'd venture that the UK car is certainly not an ultra low emission vehicle. CO2 emissions for one are quite high on the UK cars - just ask anyone who has one as a company car

Temperatures - personal experience would lead me to suggest that a large temperature difference will make a significant difference to performance.

The difference in my non ppp uk classic on a cold damp day in Scotland (say air temp of 5 degrees C) to a hot dry day further south (say 30 degrees C air temp) was astounding. Whether or not that would be 2 plus seconds from 50 to 70 would require to be measured.

I cannot believe that the ECU maps are the same for the UK and US cars though, standard or PPP. On that basis I feel it would be unfair to compare performance figures obtained with those quoted for the UK 03 PPP (which as has been said above is quoted as giving more BHP and (importantly) significantly more torque that 02 and previous cars.

You state that the US dealers advertise more WHP - but without comparing where that increase occurs in the rev range (likewise torque) it is impossible to say whether or not that would give any improvement to in gear acceleration times for a given speed.

An extra 40 bhp (wheel or flywheel) will make no difference to in gear times below a certain speed if that additional power is produced at higher revs than those seen at, say, 50 to 70 mph in a given gear.

Just my thoughts

D

ps - I recall that Autocar tested a PPP classic in the UK some years ago, and it was slower 0 to 60 and (IIRC) top speed than a standard UK car. They did say that it felt better on the road, and that the performance was more useable. Concerned that it was not as fast as it should have been.

Makes you wonder how much of the improvements a PPP produces are perceived in day to day driving rather than actual in terms of performance testing against the stopwatch.

mutant_matt

To answer a few of your Qs:

1. UK PPP'd WRX 01/02s have been dynoed many times over here and regularly backup the figures claimed by Prodrive.

2. Many PPP'd WRXs with an added full decat often see around the 270-275bhp (flywheel) mark

3. Off the top of my head, the timings that people have done for the UK STi PPP fairly closely match those claimed by Prodrive

4. Many PPP'd STis have been dynoed and regularly backup the figures claimed by Prodrive

5. Anybody that has had any problems with their PPP has had Prodrive check the car out. They generally come away pleased!

The UK WRX has a Cat in the Up-pipe which is not removed for the PPP. The standard catted downpipe is retained also and the rear cat is removed. The standard car runs 1 bar boost and the PPP runs about 1.3 bar peak, 1.2 bar held.

I don't suppose anyone out there has got DeltaDash have they? If so, why not do some logs?

Hope this helps and good luck.

Matt

EvilBevel

It seems there is a slight misunderstanding here...

If you read the thread on Nasioc carefully, it's not about comparing times with the UK - it's a) about not getting the claimed performance in the US and b) about a dyno run where the standard ECU actually made a bit more BHP than the PPP one (same day, same rollers)

I'm sure Prodrive will sort it out, and from reading a lot on here, it seems the MY01/02/03 ECU's are a bit "moody". Meaning, I'm not sure if we understand everything there is to understand about them yet.

More boost but same performance would indeed point at retarded ignition. The question is *why* these cars do that.

Using DeltaDash would be a good suggestion though Matt.

whiteyisback

For what its worth I attended Extreme Scoobies rolling road day last saturday to see what my new WRX with ecutek and full decat would produce. Anyway, whilst I was pleased with the figures I got I saw 2 really disappointed guys there who just so happened to own brand new cars, one a WRX with PPP which produced something like 215bhp and the other car an STI8 with PPP which produced 260bhp ......A couple of people said that the rolling road might have been a bit "down" on its readings compared to other dyno's but who knows for sure..........
BTW - I'm sure their must be other guys on here that were also at the Extreme Dyno day who can also verify this.

nicebloke36

question is where do you stand and what do you do if its you who buys a stock sti8 265 bhp [claimed] gets it ppp'd for 2k then rolling road says 260 ?!?!?! [claimed 300bhp]
i think id be asking my car to be put to standerd again and a full refund or possibilly suing...........
any comments, im about to get my sti8 ppp'd and this thread has got me wondering now if i should part with my green ?
paul

MikeWood

Gentlemen

I would suggest you look at the rest of the figures from the same day. There is no way that the transmission losses are as low as they are quoted at. A car producing over 225 at the wheels will be producing over 300bhp at the flywheel on a well driven dyno using the right gear.

Did anyone monitor intake temperatures as well?

Mike

silver6933

I thought only the STi's could do ambient temp correction!

The WRX's do not have the temp sensor.

MikeWood

WRX (01/02/03) does monitor intake temperature.

Mike

Jza

Ah, played the Prodrive trump card again...

Heat soak guys... come on... you must know that by now

Jza

CirrusWRX

Great suggestions everybody. Many good points, so I'll see if I can continue to throw a few around ideas.

1. I wonder what the other differences are between the US and UK spec cars. It doesn't seem like it could be anything mechanical, but perhaps something like the cams, the ECU (I assume this HAS to be different,) or something we're not even thinking of REALLY is quite different. It was mentioned by jmgelba that he felt a difference between his UK and US car, so now I'm just confused on who to ask and where to look! I am interested in the differences, if for no other reason than being curious.

2. Diablo - I agree that the performance is definitely affected by climate. The boys who run the 1/4 on a weekly basis down in Florida will never get the same times as the guys who run in California on a 50 degree night with no humidity. Likewise, altitude plays a huge role, not as much on a normally aspirated car, but certainly a difference. What I found interesting, however, is that for me, the difference was slight when the temperature was as different as 40 degrees. In other words, when the temperature is VERY cold to VERY hot, the difference is obvious, and measurable. But when the temperature is VERY hot, and goes to "sort of hot" the difference FEELS noticeable, but the clock doesn't seem to indicate as drastic of a change. Just something I've noticed in my 1/8th mile testing for both a STOCK car and a PPP car.

3. I am confused on the MY for the UK WRX's - let me see if I get this straight:
MY2001-2002 = bugeye WRX. This had roughly 221HP from the factory, correct?
MY2003-2004 = "flat square" headlight. This car has roughly 225HP from the factory, correct?

Here is where I'm definitely confused: what was the bugeyed power output for the PPP. And am I right that the power output for the "flat square" headlight car is 261HP? (I'm leaving out torque for now, but I know this is VERY important, and should be addressed a little later.)

You see, in the US, virtually all that changed between our MY 2002/2003 (first year of bugeye) and 2004 (first and current year of "flat square" headlight) is cosmetic. The 2004's dyno'd, if ANYTHING, are slightly down on power. Nobody has proved this, so right now it's just heresay. From everything I know and have read, there is NOTHING mechanically different between the 2002-2004WRX - 227hp from Subaru - nothing changed.

4. When it comes to "other people testing" I know how certain conditions can drastically affect a cars performance. I think this is what got Mazda into trouble over here with the RX-8 - they released the HP figures, and 0-60 times. People attempted to replicate them, dyno'd the car and found it nowhere near (correcting for drive loss) what Mazda claimed. They decided to buy back all the RX-8's from unhappy customers, paying 100% of the cost, or allowing the owner to keep it and receive 5 years of scheduled maintenance. *HOWEVER* They did not re-count their 0-60 time, because, that WAS obtained by magazines, individuals, et al. Your point about "where" the 40whp comes into play will certainly be a key point. If it peaks, for only an instant (this is hypothetical) at 3000RPM and then suddenly drops to 20WHP over stock, then yes, I agree this will make little difference if the test is conducted between 4000-6000RPM. I guess this is one of our original debates, and why I'm upset with myself for purchasing a product BEFORE seeing a dyno plot - that is entirely my own fault since nobody forced me to do this. This is why I think many people agree the car "feels" faster day to day driving, and this is rather unmeasurable. Therefore, I think there ARE some people who could care less about how much their 0-60 times change. But one fellow brought up a good point: passing power. What if he's cruising along at 50mph in 5th gear (not THAT unreasonable) and wanted to pass somebody. Obviously, he SHOULD change down, but what if he didn't want to-- what if he thought he should be able to pass the guy in 5th, and it should only take xx amount of time since he has modified his car. His qualm is that he just isn't seeing a noticeable increase in performance in that respect over stock. He measured his 50-70mph in 4th and 5th gear, which he felt is just a valid test in and of itself - like a "personal passing performance test." He did it when his car was bone stock, wrote down the results, and again with the PPP - no noticeable increase in performance. This is why he's a little confused right now too.

...cntd...

CirrusWRX

5. Mutant_Matt - you have a lot of great answers, and I certainly appreciate them. I did see the dyno charts listed on the front page of the site (which is AWESOME by the way - we need to get something like that over @NASIOC/ClubWRX/i-club!) I didn't know what the 01/02's were supposed to be, so that's my problem there. I think I see most claim about 250, is that correct? I agree I would LOVE to decat my car, but it's a $50,000 fine in the US, per the federal government. In fact, it's TECHNICALLY illegal to remove ANY FUNCTIONING cat on the car, *AND* not replace it with the original manufacturer's cat within the first 5 years (I'm a little hazy on the EXACT law, but that is pretty close.) Therefore, you can now understand why Subaru of America will NOT warranty the PPP2 - it's technically "illegal" and "for off road use only." Of course, MANY subaru owners here in the US have mysteriously "failing" cat's left and right. Ha ha. But over here, many have shown through the 1/4 mile and dyno that removing the cats is certainly a way to gain some "free" horsepower by allowing the engine to breath better.

Do you have a link to the testing that you are referring do? Right now, I only doubt because I myself have not SEEN any data. I have only found a few articles from some Euro magazines, and then what other people say. I'm just looking for that "evidence!" Maybe a link, or a magazine article? I'd really appreciate it! We have all heard very good things about Prodrive, hence the reason we were all very excited for them to release a US product. Of course, we must admit that their communication hasn't been the best there is, but perhaps we're too demanding. We can only compare them to the other US vendors which are much smaller in operation, but they tend to have the time to get involved with the community on the forums, via email, phone, etc... Hopefully Prodrive USA can look around and see what their competitors are doing and copy it. Otherwise, I just don't think us americans have the patience to send emails that go unanswered, or returned 3 days later. Everything we hear is that it's a really big company, so I would think there is somebody available almost all the time - but we could certainly be mistaken about this too! Delta-dash = I WANT ONE! Just don't have the money for it right now. When Prodrive USA did some preliminary testing, they used the delta-dash. Many on the forums have them, but I haven't found anybody in my area yet with one to let me borrow for a few days to try it out, but you are right - this is certainly something we need to look into.

6. EvilBevel - You are correct, I AM talking about two different things, so to speak. The thread on NASIOC is SPECIFICALLY geared towards finding out if there is a problem with our US PPP's. However, as a "personal project" I am trying to find out what on earth could cause the US PPP and UK PPP to perform so drastically different from one another. See if you can follow my logic:

Comparing our MY2004 with your 2003 should be a relatively fair comparison ON PAPER. Subaru US says 227hp, Subaru UK says 225 if I'm not mistaken. The 0-60 times for the US WRX and UK WRX are identical, I believe. I also have found while "magazine racing" that the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times between the US and UK WRX are very close, so I have to assume that from the factory, on paper, they are very close to each other in terms of those two tests. I admit that isn't very conclusive, but that's all I have to go on so far.

PPP UK says 261 crank HP, right? This is a relative increase of about 36 crank HP. The US PPP with, from what we can tell, the exact same parts says 40WHP increase over stock. The stock car was measured at 160awhp, so 200awhp with the US PPP fitted. Assuming a drivetrain loss of 30% (let's be conservative) let's say the US car is then making 280 crank HP. I have to mention that NOWHERE has Prodrive *EVER* mentioned that a UK PPP will be on par with a US PPP - this is one of the reasons why I started all this. I just can't figure out, ON PAPER, how this is possible, and rather than hearing it "straight from the horses mouth" I wanted to investigate and hear from YOU guys what could make this happen. We're all smart people here, so what on earth is causing this difference?

If our US car has 20 more crank HP, what can be the explanations as to why it's still measureably slower in all respects? I suppose, again, "where" the horsepower is definitely needs to be addressed. If it's simply peak HP, and then immediately tapers off, then that would explain it, I guess. From what we've read and heard, Prodrive has assured us that they have recently dyno'd the car, it showed 40awhp increase over stock and even showed 14.2psi of boost. NOw this is still "what he told me" stuff, no hard evidence, but this is what I can offer at this point. Torque has not been factored in yet, and THAT obviously plays a large role. I'm just trying to figure it out to satisfy my curiousity and confusion from a strictly numbers point of view. Prodrive UK reaffirms that the numbers are completely accurate. That's fine, but I want to play devil's advocate and not believe them. I want to see other people replicate it, but I need help -- point me in the right direction! A link, an article, personal experience, etc... Does anybody have any ideas (or flat out KNOW) why on paper our car is purported to have more power, but is all around slower?

Finally, I did get a kind email from an individual who says the PPP's in the UK make around 17-18psi of boost. Can anybody confirm this? Even with the "smaller" lesser known tuners in the US, there have been issues with people getting some of their "stage" packages and NOT seeing the claimed boost increases. These tuners have been known to adjust the restrictor valve, and voila, the customer sees the boost the tuner had expected. I'm not sure if it's coincidental, or if there was some confusion on Subaru's part which cars got which restrictor. We had originally discussed this with Prodrive, and it may still be an issue worth talking about, but the latest we had just heard was the 40awhp was made over a stock car, and it only showed ~14.3psi of boost. Until we see the results and any further information, this is all I can offer.

thanks so much for the great thread thus far - I invite everybody to keep it going!

Pete Croney

Silver

The WRX has a temp sensor in the MAF housing.

Steve

Drivetrain losses are typically 30%-35%. Multiply "at the wheels" by 1.33 and you will be very close to flywheel power. The flywheel figures from last weekend's rolling road are pretty meaningless as either the calibration is out or the operation was at fault. The posts that I read were along of "I was quite happy considering the rollers were under reading by 40bhp". I wouldn't have been happy if it had cost me money to get that print out.

Most 2wd drive cars will show more than 16% drivetrain loss.

Kyle

It sounds like Prodrive USA are doing something about this so I hope you get a result soon.

EvilBevel

Lots of smoke & mirrors here...

Am I reading this right ?

With 14.2 psi, you will never ever make 260 odd BHP at the flywheel with the stock turbo/cams/exhaust manifold etc.

That's less than a bar of boost !

Aside from all the "rolling roads are hogwash" remarks (I know that), are you saying the cars measured were only making 14.5 odd psi boost ?

Another thing: the Impreza really needs to get rid of a few cats to really gain power. That was the case with the old model, still the case with the new model. It's near to impossible to get up to 260 odd bhp without dropping some or all the cats on these motors.

Even forgetting "BHP" and "torque". I just happen to have driven around with a catted centre pipe for MOT reasons for about 3 weeks. It is amazing how much that influences spool-up. 50-70 mph would have looked very poor with that on.

Kyle, BHP quotes will always be "top end" (that's why it's called BHP). Prodrive would never be so daft to "add" 40 BHP at 4000 RPM, as that would eat gearboxes for lunch. So when you read "adds 40 BHP" that should always mean around 5900 -6300 RPM for an Impreza. BHP being a combination of RPM and torque.

Smoke & mirrors.