gareth

Mark - you've got me thinking now...

I have had similar concerns/mild disappointment with my 4dr MY99 but had put this down to just getting used to the performance. I certainly felt it drove better in the 0-4000rpm range whilst running in than it does now using the full range. From cold and in the lower revs it is quite lumpy and unpredictable. Also, the whirring sound (turbo I suppose) is very noticeable and seems to go up and down with little relation to speed/throttle until warmed up.

Pretty sensitive to fuel choice as well - best seems to be Esso SUL of those I've tried.

I've watched the 5th gear cutout thread and think this is a different set of symptoms to what you are describing and I may also be getting.

Anyway, dealer picking it up on Friday to sort out a dodgy door lock so I'll ask them to give a view on performance as well.

Cheers,
Gareth

Mark Biggin

Sorry about the length, but I'm hoping someone can shed some light....

I've had MY99 UK for 2 months now. I drove it according to the manual for the 1st 1000 miles and had it serviced @ 1050. I was eager to 'unleash the beast' and once serviced was told by the Service Manager to "give it some revs", so I did!!

But within 2 weeks I was feeling despondent and generally disappointed with the performance, could I have got used to it already? My previous car was 306XSi, which went and handled well, but the Scoob SHOULD be in a different league.

Another week passed and I started getting some hesitation under acceleration.

When cold, I try not to exceed 3000rpm for at least the 1st 3-4 miles. But the car is so jerky, feeling almost as though the fuel is about to run out, I don't enjoy driving it.

Once warm, I utilise the full rev range however, sometimes the car doesn't pull as well as others, feeling almost as though the turbo is having little or no effect. Plus on two occasions I had the following problems:
1. Accelerating in 3rd gear from 3000 to 7000rpm, with a juddery feel (hesitation) to the power delivery up the whole rev range.
2. Travelling at a constant speed in 2nd gear doing 3500rpm for about 1/3 mile, waiting to overtake. Once the oncoming traffic had cleared, I attempted to overtake flooring the accelerator. Power came in briefly, pushing me back into my seat (as you'd expect) for about 1 second then dropped off and I continued up the rev range, but with less 'punch' than there should be.

The car was at the dealers Monday. The guy who collected my car (works on the service desk, not a mechanic) managed to reproduce the 'hesitation' on Sunday night, but throughout Monday, the mechanics did not.

The service desk told me they have had a few MY99s with hesitation problems. After they'd consulted Subaru UK, some adjustments were made to the engine with regard to the throttle (those are the only details given to me, I do not know if the changes were mechanical or electronic) and the presure sensor solenoid also replaced. There were no error codes in the ECU.

I collected the car and drove about 60 miles throughout Monday evening. It was like driving a totally different car. No problems. I was a happy man

BUT yesterday & today, the problems were back. Both hesitant acceleration and very lumpy under 3000rpm (even when warm). I had the drop off in power occur again, this time in 3rd gear. Plus I've also experienced a different variation; accelerating in 2nd (pedal floored), from about 3000rpm - steady acceleration (not as it should be) until 6000rpm when I got a final burst of power (obviously when the turbo did something worthwhile).

The dealer (Listers in Worcester) have said they will have to have the car back and get a Subaru Technical Rep to take a look. It's booked in for May 7th. I wish it was sooner, although theres still no guarantee they'll fix it then.

Has anyone else had this problem and more importantly does anyone know the solution?

All suggestions gratefully received.

Thanks,
Mark.

PS. I'm running on NUL. Car is standard 4 door, no mods.

Zip

look at '5th gear engine cutout' thread. A lot of people have experienced something similar. Mine's in with PTS in St.Albans for the second time looking at this at this very moment. Will keep the other thread updated when I know more.

Regards,
Zip.

Lee

Hmm..you've got us all thinking now !

My MY99 doesn't seem anywhere near as mad as the demo car I took out.

You can hear the turbo spinning up and down correctly but there isn't much "shove", just a steady stream of power through the revs.

I just though I needed to run it in but I've done my 5K now..

I'll plonk a question as to where there is a rolling road near me and get it measured.

Rob D

Me too!!!!! MY98 7500 miles.

When I first recieved the car and was running in (up to 3000rpm) it felt really snappy, but after the 1000 mile service and a few more miles it didn't quite feel the same power delivery, saying that I may have got use to the performance.

In 5th gear it just doesn't quite feel right pulling from 3000rpm, and recently like most people holding in 2nd at 3000rpm, then flooring the pedal power came in briefly for about a second then just seem to die.
Other times it's fine!

Interesting to see if this occurs on my RB5 when it arrives.

Bob Rawle

Anyone recollect what the weather was like on the "flat" days. Daft as it may sound a turbo can lose 20 bhp minimum on a warm day compared to a cold day with no problem. I rolling roaded my last car and there was 40 bhp difference between the first and fourth run just because of temperature rise !! If you don't believe me then get up at 04:00 in January and go for a blast. Its awesome compared to a hot summer day and trying the same. Not suggesting that there are no problems but this is something to think about. Also try rolling the throttle on instead of stamping on it and see if things are any better.

Bob

stapper

this happens also in the netherlands!
the only thing i have rebuild is the backbox
sometime the car give a great perform
the weather was last 22 C en the car was driving perfect.

jr

gareth

Interesting to see the development of this thread. I suspect the majority of respondents are - like me - first time scooby owners. There has to be a range of background factors to consider here, such as (1) not knowing what to expect, (2) over-hyped expectations (especially when chomping at the bit for six months or more), (3) unsympathetic driving style, and (4) deep paranoia (seems to be endemic in scooby drivers ).

I'd love to hear the opinion of more experienced scooby owners who perhaps have taken on an MY99 after driving an earlier spec for a couple of years or more. How does the performance compare? Is the low-range lumpiness and variable power delivery reported above a familiar characteristic of the car or a genuine concern?

Like Bob says, putting the power on more smoothly seems to work better than just stamping on the loud pedal... is it all perhaps about learning how to "tame the beast"?

Lee

What happens if you go to your dealer and say "the performance isn't there". Assuming the customer is always right (ho ho), how could a dealer prove that the car has the quoted figure ?

A friend works for Ford, and the percentage limits that they work to means that 2 identical engines can differ by about 15%, on a Sub this would be 30 bhp ??

So if you proved your power was down (on a ro.road) would the dealer be interested anyway ?

Maybe power differences between cars aren't important for Jo Bloggs, but we've all got Sub's for one reason only - PERFORMANCE !

I also agree with the temperature difference theory, cold air is denser which means you can cram more in the cylinder and get more "bang".

Anyone had their MY99 on a rolling road yet ?

JasonJ

I'd be interested to find out if anyone here with the problem mentioned, has had the Prodrive performance package fitted ?

I'm picking up my MY99 DBM today and am a little concerned about this whole thing.

[This message has been edited by JasonJ (edited 29-04-99).]

sonu

Hi guys.

I'm a '99 owner and have found no problems with pick-up or performance. It may be to do with the way you guys have run in the engine.

With 2000 on the clock, I took my car to a race track and thrashed the living daylights out of the engine. This really helped to loosen the engine up . I would recommend taking your Scoobs on a track. It's worked fine for me .

Thanks

Sonu

Pete Croney

My own 99 has now done 12,000 miles and has got better with each mile.

When on choke, it is prone to hessitation, but then this is to be expeted, with ECU running things rich in the cold engine.

The hessitation when warm may be one of two things...

Subaru ECU's have a function which stops you sitting at constant revs in low gears and then nailing it and getting full boost. This is to protect the drive train from any shock resulting from the instant application of 200+lbs of torque. A quick blip before making the overtake will give you full power.

The other factor is that driving hard and then sitting behind a slow car for a couple of miles can result in a build of under bonnet heat, made worse by slip streaming the car in front. The additional heat in the intercooler can reduce maximum boost by 5psi in these circumstances.


[This message has been edited by Pete Croney (edited 29-04-99).]

Benny Boy

Moral of the story?

Don't buy the new phase 2 boxer engine. How many people have problems with the previous motors? Not many and they can invariably be related to known and easy to fix problems.

I'm wondering now that with all these new complaints being posted on the BBS and IWOC whether if you are going to buy a new car you should go and get an STi 4 instead.........

Just thought I'd make you all feel good about your purchase.....soz

Laters
Benny
(now Scoobyless and bitter!)

Mark Biggin

A number of people have agreed that there is a possiblity of getting used to the performance, but I know I have at least one problem other than not always going as well as I think it should. Plus, sometimes the perfomance of my car is excellent.

Listers (my dealer) have agreed there is a problem, hence at their request, the visit of a Subaru Technician on May 7th.

Bob Rawle suggested that the performance differences may be due to weather conditions, but I'd had that thought myself when my doubts first materialised. Hence, I've been aware of the weather whilst driving and its not the cause in my case. As I've only had the car 2 months, I think yesterday was the first warm day anyway!
I will however try "rolling the throttle on instead of stamping on it" as Bob suggested.

Pete Croney said "Subaru ECU's have a function which stops you sitting at constant revs in low gears and then nailing it and getting full boost......."
Over what time periods does the ECU consider the revs to be "constant", 5 seconds, 1 minute ..... ?

Pete also said "A quick blip before making the overtake will give you full power"
So, is it best to drive in a higher gear, and change down before overtaking? I've tried bliping the throtle without changing down as advised by someone yesterday, but I get quite a violent jerk when coming off the 'blip'.

And, "build up of under bonnet heat", I had considered this. Most of my journeys involve some driving on dual carriage ways or motorway, usually within 4-5 miles of home (those usually being the warm-up miles) driving at Mway speeds could be causing excessive heat???

My thoughts however, keep returning to Monday night after I'd collected the car from the dealer. It ran fine all evening. I made 4 seperate journeys (in total around 60 miles), every one flawless (and one of them contained a 7 mile stretch of dual carriageway taken at "a fair old pace").

One point I forgot to mention in my original post, was that when I collected the car from Listers on Monday, the clock and radio had been reset. Presumably from diconnecting the battery. Did I therefore also receive an ECU reset and could that have make things better, even if short term!?

Lee

Going back to what I said..a couple of points I now think are relevant..

the demo car I took out was a 98, which has a bigger turbo than a 99, so more lag but the car feels more "agressive" when eating up road.
The 99 has a smaller turbo which is smoother and so doesn't "feel" as quick.

Also, (assumnig the ECU can be/was reset) my "performance blues" happened after I had the battery disconnected for a day putting in ICE. If the ECU was re-learning then it would have been naff since the following drives were short (engine cold) runs and idling.

I think I'm going to get a power-run, then reset the ECU (followed by a good drive) and get another run.

Bob Rawle

I think its worth mentioning that during my series of experiments to optimise my Vauxhall I established that under the right conditions its possible to get a good 0.4 bar pressure building up behind the throttle butterfly when you have minus 0.4 bar in the inlet manifold. I used two boost guages to detect this, one in the manifold and one in the plenum. I then fitted a pressure switch to the plenum set to 0,3 bar and used this to light a led indicator on the dash. I was now able to play with the throttle off boost to get the light on. So I now know that I have at least 0.3 bar ready to go so that when I roll the throttle open the engine gets a "kick" from the pressure build up which in turn increases exhaust gas flow which in turn spins the turbo up even faster which, in turn means ... well the car takes off like a rocket. My Sti will do the same thing. I can hear the turbo coming up when I've got vaccuum and I know that means that I've already got boost in the intercooler. Once I get it the coil pack thing sorted and the boost system reconnected then I'll repeat the experiments and let you all know what happens. (Its booked in for next Wed.)Bottom line is to emphasise that rolling the throttle is the best approach.

I know this all sounds a bit sad but I got such a wide difference in performance depending on how I opened the throttle I just had to find out why. Once it was understood the Cav would always take off consistently. Bear in mind it was fitted with all sorts of tuning tweaks including 5th injector, independant adjustable boost control, hybrid turbo, charge cooler, adjustable fuel pressure, customised Superchips (mapped on the road with a laptop), Mongoose exhaust.

Incidently, I ran an induction kit on it (the Cav) for over a year before I established that a panel filter actually kept the inlet air temperature some 15 degrees cooler under most circumstances. This equated to approx. 15 bhp improvement comparing worst case conditions.

Sorry to go on but this seemed relevant. Turbos are tops but they can take a bit of understanding to get the best out of them.

Bob

[This message has been edited by Bob Rawle (edited 29-04-99).]

WESTFIELD

99 Spec with 1,400 miles and 98 RON fuel.

I have just experienced a momentary flat spot durring hard acceleration in all gears that occurs about 1 second after gear change. I think it might be due to over boosting as the performance felt very strong. Any thoughts ?
I have also owned a 98 spec and can confirm that both cars respond best to a smooth driving style with progresive use of the throttle. The 98 spec car allways performed perfectly.

Are turbos more sensitive to atmospheric conditions than atmos ?

[This message has been edited by WESTFIELD (edited 30-04-99).]

Lee

A guy at PE told me that atmospheric conditions give a couple of bhp different but their experience was that it didn't matter.

Incidentally last night I ran it low on fuel, changed to SUL, ran it low again, filled up again ! Took for a thrash, then disconnected the battery for an hour.

Took for another blast, trying to keep the boost on for 30secs (ah the fabled ECU reset!).

Now the car is smoother all round, power is more or less the same up to 4000, but there definitely seems more "go" upto 6500.

Again, without measuring this properly it's all hot air, but the difference is that now I'm a happy chappy and before I wasn't.

Perhaps this is worth losing your radio stations for ?

Mike Owen

Interesting thread... Can't say I've noticed any great difference in my MY99 (18 months and some 30k miles in an MY97). After 4k miles it still feels like it's got a bit of loosening up to do yet but then again, the previous car was similar. It maybe pulls a bit better from 3-4k rpm but I think you'd have to drive the cars back-to-back to notice any real differences. Looking forward to seeing some rolling road test (soon?). Autocar testing an RB5 next week... Have PRODRIVE "done the business" this time?!

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

I was at Mill Lane Engineering in Basingstoke today. Whilst chatting to the head mechanic he said that they had solved the problem of the 3000-4000rpm cut out/performance problem! They claim to have fixed them every time! Anyone willing to take them up on the challenge?

He mentioned something about overfilling the engine with oil causing the problem. Give them a call on 01256-780790

Regards
Andy

aziz

HELLO,
About that performance drop in hot
weather,.... well gentlemen you are lucky
around here (KUWAIT) the difference between
day time and night ambient temp,. could as much as 20 C or more day time in June/July
under the shade that is comes to around 50C
so I leave it to your imagination as to the
actual temperature under direct sun light.

NO turbo motor on earth is imune to such temp changes, moreover we only have 95 unleaded around here (cheap) so you see
no matter how warm it gets in the U.K.
and with 98 SUL available to you the performance drop is nothing compared to
what we experience around here .

HAPPY MOTORING

Julian W.

I have just ordered my new my99 DBM :-) and its my first impreza (I currently own a BMW)
However after reading this thread, you guys are starting to worry me a little. Is this really a problem with the current model or are a few of you just having one or two teething problems. Please reassure me!

Nick

>Julian
My own 99my has been fine.

Julian W.

Cheers Nick. Now I don't have to drink quite as many beers tonight :-)

Sunil

Julian,

I wouldn't want anyone spoiling your night...I have a my99 and got blown out by a Corsa this afternoon - Just kidding! Enjoy your beers.

PS I do have a my99 and it's performing fine although I'm still running it in. Since I can't take it over 4000rpm, I've taken to looking for and driving everywhere down B roads instead of A roads. Great fun!

BPM

BPM: The MY 99 has been by the far the most difficult of the My Series that has come out. I personally and the dyno figures do show the MY98 is certainley a better unit for performance upgrade. The ECU has no additional chip option so Subaru has closed the loop on that side to the likes of ChipTorque etc , the only way you can bypass it is to utilise the Link Aftermarket EFI fuel injection System as used by Subaru's Possum Bourne the '96, '97, and '98 Australian Rally Champion. This would be the solution allowing fully adjustable ignition timing and a variety of programs allowing a plug in solution , the air flow meter can also be eliminated to in-crease power. , you can then incorporate lifters which alone aid in about 20HP. The MY99 is proven that by changing to just a standard K & N filter 2HP gains are the max you will receive. The Airbox is quite good unless you go to a Air Cleaner Kit with carbon Fibre Airbox with larger inlet pipes. This unit from BPM has dyno proven 13HP on the low rev range, it loves the STI setup so even utilising an STI chip with the airbox and dual dump pipe system you can expect a missile. There will be a feature in EVO shortly showing how you can take a WRX to 350HP without any internal work. Since BPM have had the vehicles here in Australia since 1994 we work closely with Possum Bourne and have track record that is unparalled. If you have any queries that no one has been able to answer I would be more than happy to help you guys and girls out.

Greg
Boost Performance Motorsport (BPM)

John H-S

Just to add re-assurance - I've now done 7500 miles in my 99my and had no problems with the engine.

I would support the view that 'squeezing' the throttle, rather than mashing it, appears to give a better response.