smellyvag

Guys, I recently fitted my knocklink and when i thrash it hard above 6000 rpm the first amber light flickers.

Do other people manage to get this to light up? I never had a red one yet.

Interested to know what other peoples do.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Mine has only ever lit the first bright green, even when I missed a gearchange, or bounced off the rev-limiter
Alcazar

Fuzz

best way to check you have it wired up correctly is to look at it while cranking the engine.
The noise of the starter seems to make it flicker nicely

Andy

markwild

I get both greens for a split second when starting the engine. Also, around 4K the first green comes on - the second green occasionally flickers between 4.5k and 6k, but I'm not getting any above that.

Bear in mind the state of tune of your (and these replys) car(s).

Mine's a 98UK Turbo, full de-cat, ITG Filter, Dawes, running peak 1.05 bar. (90K on the clock) and running Optimax.

I have to confess, I did see the whole lot light up just once, as I changed from 4->5, but it seems that this is not that unusual at a high rev gear change....

Hope this helps,

Mark

smellyvag

When i first fitted the knocklink it never went above green. Only thing i can think of is i had it mapped on optimax and been running it on BP super recently.

mr smash

ive just fitted mine and 2 be honest im not convinced on the acuracy mine will light up1st led and mabe the 2nd if i realy thrash it near the red line....this is with the sensativity on the knocklink on max[also using a aftermarket bosh knocksensor].my primary complaint is that i dont know whether the 2 led,s are actualy registering knock?as its not possible 2 calibrate the knocklink as its on max sensativity already?[ID TAKE IT WITH A PINCH OF SALT 2 BE HONEST]

anybody got any comments on this?

smellyvag

Smash,

best thing to do is to get a screw driver and tap the sensor itself and watch the lights go mad, at least you can see if your sensor is working properly

The_Judge

Why are you expecting your car to be detting? What MY is it? What modifications have you carried out? What mileage has it done?

If the LEDs light up in relation to the increase in revs, then the chances are it's not knock. More likely engine noise. Mine does exactly the same (MY00).

Have you tried tapping the block near the sensor to prove it's capable of "christmas treeing"? If you have, and it's working OK, then personally I'd be more concerned if it WAS indicating knock, instead of second green.

I do understand where you're coming from on this point. The instructions are a tad misleading, expecting every Knocklink to need calibrating. Maybe in relation to other cars, the Subaru engine is relatively quiet...? Just a thought.

Regards,

Ade.

[Edited by The_Judge - 10/13/2003 5:20:07 PM]

mr smash

ok yes ove tapped the knock sensorand it lights all the way[although i did have 2 tap it quite hard]my cars a my96 wrx just imported no engine mods yet.seemed strange that u cant properly calibrate the knock link corectly.....i mean i know its registering a signal from the sensor so there is some vibration triggering it[but how do we know this vibration isnt knock just cause the link says its only 2 led,s]..u see my point ..or ami just being thick and overly negative?hhehe

LEGACYTURBS

Today took the following off my leg saloon with tmic and put them on my leg estate with a charge cooler.
full de-cat system (twin dump dp)
magnex ss bbox
blitz air cone
dump valve
fuel cut defencer (thanks pat)
upgraded ecu
TD05 turbo
dawes @ 15psi
The difference in cooling between the charge cooler and the tmic is making it det badly at high rpm, so i got all the way up to the red one lighting up @ 6000rpm+ I was running 20 psi with minimal det in the other car.
It only flickers the bottom green when i start the engine up, but will hit amber if tapped with a extention bar from a socket set.

Its set on half sens

Hope this helps

Bottomfeeder

MY00,
Mods; decat center section, scoobysport BB (impressive huh?)
Cruising in 5th at 60, first green LED lit dimly, dropped to 4th, nailed it HARD........first green LED did not even flicker. I can get it to light up but that involves belting the block with a hammer, sensor set to max. I am on my second bottom end and so worry excessivly about the accuracy of my knicklonk

The_Judge

I understand the concerns regarding the accuracy of the Knocklink. I have them as well! Lets face it, we're putting alot of faith and trust in this device. We assume that because the Knocklink says we're OK, then we are. One of the problems, certainly from my point of view, is that alot of us don't know enough about our engines. And the modifications are too cheap and easy to ignore.

- We fit a Knocklink, an AFR, and a boost gauge, thinking that we've done everything in our power to allow ourselves to carry out these modifications, safe in the knowledge that as long as the Knocklink stays in the green, we're OK. Some of us even replace the MAF and lambda sensor, just in case.

- Then come the modifications. We replace the down pipe, removing a cat, and then the back box. Everything still looks OK. We then fit a MBC, upping the boost by a third. Knocklink says we're OK, AFR says we're not running lean. Then we hit fuel cut, but instead of turning the boost down, we consider getting a FCD and turning it up even more. Still relying on the Knocklink and AFR. Then we think about a FPR to increase the amount of fuel. And still relying on these devices...

Where does it end? When the engine goes bang? I know for a fact I had absolutely no intentions of modifying the car as much as I have (which by other people's standards, isn't a great deal). But once you get bitten by the bug, it's a slippery slope...

I know that it's a risk, we all do. But we still do it. I think the only way I could personally be reassured is if there are no instances of blown engines, where the unlucky person has been relying on a Knocklink and an AFR.

So, the big question is, does anyone know of any instances? I'd be very interested...

Regards,

Ade.

markwild

I think P20SPD had a blowup, even with kl and AFR - Sorry !

However, I agree with your comments, I started with JUST a rear box, then centre and ITG, then de-cat and now I'm MBC'd.....

Today I hit cut, and so I;ve turned it down a touch - but I can tell, so I'm going to put it somewhere in the middle i.e. turn it up quarter turn (I went down 3/4).....

HOWEVER< I am DEFO NOT going to take the full-cut off and {Hopefully} that will stop me being too ambitious....

I used to rally minis, and went through 12 engines in 3 years !!!

The only one to last was built with new parts, all matched, balanced and hardened from the ground up - cost me 3 grand for the engine parts and went nicely, thanks v. much....

Mark

highlander68k

Just wondering, does anyone know the point at which the original subaru ECUs retard the ignition timing upon sensing knock?

I've rarely got the 2 greens up in the week that I've had mine fitted (on full sensitivity), but a couple of times had the whole lot due to fiddling with the AVC-R settings, and too much boost came in - I've been trying to gain a stable boost throughout the rev range.

At a guess, roughly speaking and not tarring everyone with the same brush, should any detonation occur, the factory ecu should retard the ignition to prevent any further knock, and only those who have aftermarket ecu's or those who have tried to gain to much power the cheaper route should have any major problems with det, along with those using the wrong fuel.

Any experts car to comment?

markwild

Errr - I think that asking the factory ECU to cope with Decat and MBC might be a bit much !

I'm sure that if I ran 2bar boost, I'd dett till death :O

Mines fitted with the factory ECU and I get 2 greens somewhere near max revs ...... sometimes....


Mark

RICH WILD

My car has the factory ECU still (97 UK)and it runs 1.5 bar of boost on a TD05FE Turbo and I only get at the most the first yellow to light. Using a fair dollop of NF of course. I've actually run it to 1.8bar before it went bananas.

I have a list of mods as long as your arm and at last count the car did 344bhp@1.4bar, so don't underestimate the OEM ECU.

It surprises me that people with fairly standard cars buy knocklinks and expect them to light up like Blackpool and are disappointed when they DON'T!

You should be relieved!

The knocklink howevever IS a guide only, it is not a precision tool. Don't RELY on it totally to save your engine. I'm sure it would cost a lot more money if it could GUARANTEE saving it. It's there to WARN you only.

If your car is fairly standard, you SHOULDN'T be getting all lights blazing unless you do something stupid like run a decatted import on 95 or run 22psi with a dodgy fuel pump and no extra charge cooling. But at least if you HAVE a knocklink you are in a better position than someone who doesn't and who carries on blissfully ignorant of what is going on.

IMHO some people are far to worried by scaremonger stories spread around the community. Even standard engines can blow, it's the luck of the draw mostly.

I look at it this way, if you drive on the roads you COULD be involved in a big crash, so you take care and precautions to avoid it, but it STILL could happen. The more precautions you take, the less the chance but there are NO guarantees. So what do we do? Stay at home in case anything bad happens? NO!

At the end of the day if you are going to have sleepless nights over whether your car will go boom, is it really worth modding it?
As long as you seek specialist advice, you should be more than safe 95% of the time.

Well there's my opinion if anyone is interested.

Rich

highlander68k

Nicely put, Rich

The_Judge

Couldn't agree more, as I already commented on earlier.

Obviously it can't be relied upon totally to save your engine. I understand that there are many variables that can contribute to terminal engine failure, but as far as det is concerned, is the Knocklink not the best device available to WARN?

Agreed.

Isn't that the main point of owning one...?

Unfortunately, it seems not everyone is as knowledgable as you obviously are, and therefore consider other people's stories, whether good or bad, to help them with the running of their pride and joy, and hopefully to help prevent certain things from going wrong.

Yeah, but surely adding extra stresses to the engine increase the chances of something bad happening?

There's a BIG difference between driving around normally, and driving at 100mph on the wrong side of the road with a truck coming the other way. Yes you're likely to crash in either scenario, but you're more likely to crash in the second instance. Does this not also apply to a standard engine compared to a modified engine, or a modified engine with extra precautions such as Knocklink and AFR, compared to one without...?

Indeed.

So tough **** to the 5% then, eh? I wonder if they had Knocklinks, or just relied on "specialist advice"...

[Edited by The_Judge - 10/15/2003 11:46:01 AM]

RICH WILD

Absolutely agree with everything you've said there Judge.

I reckon the knocklink is possiby the best readily available device out there to warn of impending doom, but that it isn't as 100% failsafe as some people mistakenly think. When Bob Rawle maps cars he uses a Knocklink in conjunction with det cans. he doesn't rely on the knocklink alone.

QUOTE:"Isn't that the main point of owning one...?"

Yes, that's what I meant, sorry, I wasn't very clear there. What I was trying to say was that a knocklink isn't a precision tool but that doesn't mean to say it's not worth having..it definately is.

QUOTE :"Unfortunately, it seems not everyone is as knowledgable as you obviously are, and therefore consider other people's stories, whether good or bad, to help them with the running of their pride and joy, and hopefully to help prevent certain things from going wrong."

I'm not that knowledgeable you know . It just narks me sometimes, not that people get worried or that people worry people when there's just cause but when SOME people who don't know what they are talking about start worrying people UNNECCESARILY, like "OH MY GOD YOU OWN A SUBARU AND IT HASN'T EXPLODED YET?" and people who say "YOU'RE RUNNING 1.1 BAR ON UK INTERNALS! YOU'LL MELT IT YOU KNOW!"

Daft examples I know but that kind of gossip does go on and some innocent people get taken in by it and it winds me up. Better to be safe than sorry, sure but there's too much "advising" going on from people who haven't even experienced what they are "advising" about. Maybe it's done with the best intentions, but if someone came up to me and said "how do you perform open heart surgery mate?" I'd say "not a fooking clue". I wouldn't start giving them advice just for the sake of it.

QUOTE: "Yeah, but surely adding extra stresses to the engine increase the chances of something bad happening?"

Absolutely, couldn't agree more. What I meant was a lot of people would have us believe modding is EVIL and will inevitably result in total engine destruction.

QUOTE:"There's a BIG difference between driving around normally, and driving at 100mph on the wrong side of the road with a truck coming the other way. Yes you're likely to crash in either scenario, but you're more likely to crash in the second instance. Does this not also apply to a standard engine compared to a modified engine, or a modified engine with extra precautions such as Knocklink and AFR, compared to one without...?"

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Sorry, my ranting often makes sense only to me

QUOTE:"So tough **** to the 5% then, eh? I wonder if they had Knocklinks, or just relied on "specialist advice"..."

LOL. There will always be the exceptions. Not all "specialists" are "specialists" but those worth their salt would have insisted on the fitting of a knocklink anyway

Sorry to smellyvag, I've turned you otherwise innocent thread into an epic

The_Judge

Apologies from me too Smellyvag (have you tried Kolorex, by the way...? )

Take it easy Rich

markwild

Rich - I agree. My comments about the standard ECU were simply to point out that the standard ECU can't back the ignition off infinitely, so its still possible to knock with it as standard..

I'd agree that ANY device that gives an insight into what's going on under the bonnet is good and I'm quite happy with my KL and AFR.

I've edited this thread - cos I'd ranted about people who say 'Subarus are crap and the engines blow', when ALL engines blow occassionally, especially when modded -


Anyhow. as I said - I get one green flicker around 4-4.5K and sometimes a second one higher in the revs- but no yellows -

Hope this helps people with their expected results,

Mark

RICH WILD

LOL @ Judge

I had one of those days yesterday!

The_Judge

Don't worry about it mate, have 'em every day! 200 PC users to support, the majority being technophobic numpties... [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] still, it pays my mortgage, and enabled me to get my Mule so I guess I shouldn't grumble

Regards,

Ade.

pban

Luc

Sounds good you are seeing only a caution light on the knock link. If you like I can plug your car into my delta dash and see what/if there is any knock correction being picked up by the ecu. Let me know.

Paul

smellyvag

pban,

Does your monitor tell me about MAF sensor and other faults. My car is running like a piece of **** misfiring etc. Maybe you could help.

Btw i took your advice and had a remap

pban

Yep, it will at the fault codes. Where did you get the remap?

Paul

john banks

Recent thread on 22b about this with more technical detail and healthy debate.

Of note AndyF and myself have both mapped our cars without det cans as we only got them rigged up recently. Andy lost one engine due to a ring land fracture but got early warning of this from a knocklink so he could fix it with just new pistons before his whole engine was lunched, the det that did it was probably from before he had his knocklink. His engine with STi pistons has tolerated in excess of 440 BHP on the most conservative reading rollers in the UK (similar to Powerstation, possibly a bit lower). My engine was running happily at about 330-350 BHP for ages, and latterly up to 406 BHP on the same rollers as above using up to 1.8 bar for midrange torque, again mapped only with a knocklink. Of all the other engines I've mapped only one engine has let go because of big end bearing failure at 6800 RPM sustained in 5th gear. This happens on standard cars as well, and the timing and fuelling maps were very conservative and the car was only running 1.2 bar with a FMIC and capable turbo. There was no suggestion of detonation damage on the pistons. I think with the number of engines I've tuned you would expect one or two failures from big ends just from the statistics even if I was the best tuner in the world (which I clearly am not BTW ). I think most of the respected mappers on here from the latest to the oldest and greatest have lost at least one engine, probably not because of bad tuning. So I think it is fair to say that whilst using knocklinks there have been no proven detonation related failures, and between us Andy and I have pushed UK cast pistons and forged STi pistons about as hard as anyone, few others would be as stupid as to push them to 406 and 440 BHP on low reading rollers respectively, and I don't think anyone would do it for someone else's car to this level! You play, you pay is the motto here.

The knocklink on maximum sensitivity with a sensor mounted on the block does give a language we can all compare. I remain concerned about spikes even of greens in the midrange, especially since you can hear the thunks of mild det through det cans when this happens, but if you look out for and remove by tuning any significant spike activity you are likely to avoid significant problems.

The only reason T-uk, Andy F and I persisted with getting det cans to work for us (quite sensitive to location, mounting type, hose type, headpiece type etc) was so that we could tune satisfactorily my built engine with 4 thou bore clearance which can overwhelm a knocklink with background noise from piston slap. It was interesting that we all used the knocklink initially on a known car to coach us into what was det and what was not, and it got to the point where we could anticipate what the knocklink was going to do, but by carefully watching it I don't think we missed anything of significance. If you read the 22b thread it is arguable that we are actually mapping quite conservatively by taking out transitional det spikes, and little 2nd green midrange spikes by ignition/fuelling control. However, without microscopy of piston crowns and various high cost OEM reliability testing techniques we are left with a knocklink as a very practical tuning and monitoring tool IMHO.

[Edited by john banks - 10/16/2003 1:28:55 PM]

smellyvag

A guy called Pat did it, nice chap, with good experience of scoobies

I think he used Ecutek or something..........

smellyvag

pban,

I lost your contact details. Are you about this weekend for me to pop over and see you?

Thanks
Luc

The_Judge

Very interesting reading John. I think I might have a wonder over to 22b...