Judge

Has anybody run an FMIC with the standard TD04 turbo? Was it particularly laggy as a result? What difference did you notice from the TMIC?

Judge

No one?

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

wont a FMIC with a TD04 turbo be a waste of ££££ as the normal intercooler can max this turbo out

jap-si

there has been some talk lately about various fmic's out there. For e.g. there's the new Hybrid which seems quite cheap, then there's the HKS... £££££s! But the only thing is they are all for high powered cars, and as far as i'm led to believe, if you use a big fmic with the standard turbo it would be like getting your engine bored to 2.5 ltr and using the old 2ltr Pistons....pointless and a waste of ££££s.
I have seen a smaller I/cooler on ebay that could be worth a look, and that guy says something similar to what i've just said but i think it is new and has only just come out.
Infact there was a thread somewhere on S/Net about it and some folks were ripping it up but until it has been out there on a few cars for a while, then i don't see how anyone can say it's either good or bad.
As far as the other fmics are concerned if you just want a cheap one for the looks and nothing else then maybe the Hybrids the one for you, the problem is it's from China or there abouts. Now I have a mate who imports motorbikes from china and they are damn cheap too, but to be honest they are cheap for a reason....they are very poor quality! the hybrid could suffer the same problem. By the way i've seen prices of £400+ for the hybrid...that seems very pricey considering my friend can get a full 125cc scrambler bike for $800...yes $$$$ so that's about £400!!!!!

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

can he get me 1

Delboy2

The Hybrid FMIC is very good quality for the price imho. The core is of bar and plate design 600*300*75 and represents good value for money

Cheers

jap-si

Stevebt... I'd love to get you one but i'm affraid he won't even sell it to me at that price, he's a right tight arsed git!!!! He retails them for about £900 though, but to be honest, they're a bit sh*t! (look great....crap workmanship). WE COULD MAYBE DO A GROUP BUY ON IT AND GET THEM CHEAPER.....LOL.


Delboy2... can you tell me if the hybrid fmic has internal cooling fins within the core or not.

Also do you know if that's true about the big fmic's on fairly standard cars, is it really a waste of time because of lag etc. as i'd only heard it through general chat with other guys.

scooby-si

the hybrid fmic is way to big and u have to cut the bumper to **** to get it on, u want 1 of these m8 and pete will make it to the bhp of the car so no lagg on cutting








and some very nice carbon pipe work

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Now I like the look of this, but I am a little concerned with all the pipe work. Surely there is a better method than the jigsaw in the pic.

How much is this kit?

Can I buy just the IC?

scooby-si

give pete a bell m8 he is a top bloke he will sort you out

01501 730344

079989 556815

mail performance.carbon@virgin.net

Delboy2

The Hybrid core does have internal fins. When I fitted my FMIC there was minimal additional lag but this may be more of an issue with the smaller TD04 turbo due to the volume increase. To be honest I can't see much point in going to all the effort of fitting an FMIC when it looks roughly the same size as an Original TMIC with all that extra pipework which will create additional lag . The amount of joins is surely going to impede the airflow with the additional risk of leaks, the carbon pipework does look good but is seriously overshadowed by the amount of blue silicon pipework used and tbh does look like a jigsaw puzzle.

Cheers

RB5_245

if you saw your 125cc scrambler with square wheels you'd know it was rubbish even if no one bought it and told you.

That intercooler definetly had a proverbial set of square wheels!

I think the hybrid is too big, and will cause lag. I am waiting for the results of thse who've fitted it though because it is a really good deal.
Dave.

dougies549

Hi Judge

If i were you i would go for both a bigger turbo and a Fmic.

Reason for Fmic is that you do queit a bit of Knockhill now a days so you will be able to keep those intake Temp's down with this.

And the turbo well you would really gain the benifit's out of the Fmic with this plus the extra oomph .

But how deep are your pockets

Cheers Dougie

scooby-si

e-mail i had of pete

Hi there Simon, how are things with you?
You will be glad to here that i've finally fitted and tested an intercooler
(pictures included), What do you think?

The kit for up to 300bhp cars is £699 and the higher ones 400 to 500bhp will
be £799.

If you have any interested parties then give them my number as i'm expecting
big interest as the pictures are going to get put in one or two magazines.

The engine temp went down by approx. 30 degrees and the induction
temperature drop could be felt by simply touching the pipe work, (very) hot
at the turbo end and freezing cold at the inlet manifold side.
Know idea yet of power gains, but certainly an increase.

Let me know what you think of it. All the best,

Pete.

SiHethers

Do NOT get a FMIC with a td04. This turbo cannot make-up the dead-space between the turbo and intercooler fast enough to make the extra charge cooling effect worthwhile. Just ask John Banks, he tried this combo and judged it a bad move.

Simon

markwild

Hmm - some very contradictory opinions here - I asked Harvey the same question (TD04 with Hybrid - too laggy ?) and he said that it would make little difference because of the design - Also, this seemed to be the experience of one of the guys who had one...

here

I'm thinking of going for the hybrid on the next grp buy, but can't afford to add TD05, fuel pump, regulator, injectors, FMIC and re-map all at once !

Having spoken to a few people, it seems like adding the FMIC will be OK without anything else (assuming kl and afr still OK) - this won't give much in the way of power, but will improve intake temps and leave the way open for the others (Though they probably WILL need to be done on one hit )

Hope this helps (or adds to the mix, anyhow...)

Mark

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Having fitted a Hybrid FMIC with a TD04 I think I speak from a position of knowledge. I have fitted a number of other kits of differing makes and have first hand knowledge of these and run an APS FMIC on another wagon. For best results there would be an advantage with a bigger turbo where the reduction in air temperature is a bigger issue but there is no problem achieving benefits with the above FMIC on a TD04 and this business about increased lag is another part of scooby myth. A properly designed system will add very little lag and you can work it out for yourself by comparing the air consumption of the engine (at medium revs onwards) -v- the OE intercooler capacity -v- the Hybrid Front Mount Intercooler capacity.
Rather than repeat myself look at the link posted by markwild above.
You will also see the views of other people who have actually fitted a Hybrid Front Mount as opposed to those giving opinions about something of which they have no direct experience.

Jap Si : I think you talk completely out of turn. If you are going to come on to the BBS then you have a responsibility to talk about things you know about. The Hybrid is quite capable of running in the cruise at 2 degrees c. over ambient and it is just as capable a piece of kit as the APS which cost more than twice as much. I know this from direct personal experience.

???????????????????????

Sorry but I think you are full of ****. We have brought in 39no. Hybrid Intercoolers so far and your views are not echoed by those that have them.

scooby-si : What a coincidence and similarity of name.

Please explain why the Hybrid core is too big.
I understand you want to push your friends product but the core looks very small and I have considerable reservations about the overall design, especially the restrictions and number of joins. I assure you that for an every day road car there is no need for a smaller core for 300 bhp and a bigger core for 500 bhp.

markwild

Harvey,

apologies for dragging you into that particular squabble - I'm aware that 'the rumour mill' is V. powerful (I'm subject to it myself with a new clutch plate at the moment...) so thought I'd try to point people towards a 'fact based' thread.

I'm running the standard TMIC on a TD04 UK Turbo currently, so cannot comment personally, but I'm more than happy to take the word of an experienced chap like yourself, together with the personal experiences of others involved in the previous group buys.

Thanks

On the subject of GBs, do you have any idea when/whether you'll be running the third FMIC buy ? - I'm up for an unpolished Hybrid, to fit in prep for Fuel and TD05 mods later this year (hopefully ) - I also believe that an induction kit is a must, rather than std or panel, so I need to sort this out too

Cheers,

Mark

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Hi Mark : You will have no problem with a well designed FMIC and your TD04. The Hybrid is a well designed and manufactured piece of kit. If you go into the Project or Group Buy II threads you can contact any of the people that have these intercoolers for their personal views. I would not have involved myself in a Second Group Buy if I was not happy with the quality. I do have a couple of niggles but that can be saved for another thread.
Changing to a TD05 will show additional gains.
All Hybrid FMICs in future will be polished only ie. no unpolished.
You will need an induction kit and possibly depending on your model year a BOV.
Send me your e-mail address and I will give you my contact details so you can talk through anything you want.
I am hoping to start the third group buy shortly on www.22B.com but I have a few issues to resolve with Hybrid before we can proceed.

markwild

Harvey, you have PM

Thanks,

Mark

scooby-si

harvey iam on about wot a mess they look when they are fiitted m8, theres no bumper left and a bloody big hole in the inner wing.

iam just thinkin of people when they want to sell the car and it has a big hole in the inner wing thats all m8

GC8

Harvey; with regard to people only commenting on subjects about which they are knowledgeable: I completely agree with you, but lets face it, if they did SN would be virtually dead wouldnt it?

markwild

Scooby-si 'it has a big hole in the inner wing thats all m8' - This hole already exists on the 98 anyhow (I can't comment on others, as I don't have them !)

From the Hybrid fitting thread :

Started my installation this evening. Slightly different to Delboy's and Harvey's as my car is a MY98.

Pipe through inner wing on drivers side, will pass through existing front hole, but needs wing to be loosened to manoeuvre pipe:



I don't have the hybrid, but the holes are there - Its where the original air feed pipework went - You can buy a plug for them, if you wanted to fill them after removing the hybrid, but didn't want to re-fit the original air box piping....

Mark

EMS

I´ve mapped a MY99 with FMIC in combination with a TD04 a few weeks ago and I have to say there is a noticable gain in the higher rev range! With the TD04 pushed to it´s limits (say 1.0 bar @ 6000 RPM), it´s heating up the inlet air a lot. You have to retard the ignition to keep it det free with the TMIC. After changing to a FMIC even without changing the timing and fueling, there was more topend power compared to the TMIC. With tweaked timing and fueling it was even more. Expect about 10 - 15 HP more (it has to be remapped though to achieve max. gain). There was a bit more lag, but nothing compared to a big turbo! Nothing to worry about, I liked it a lot on the small roads.

Mark.

markwild

Mark - Just to confirm your typo... 'You have to retard the ignition to keep it det free with the FMIC' - You did mean TMIC here ?

Just Checking....

Mark - Oh, and I assume the 10-15 was post-remap... I'd be leaving mine at the current map till I've fitted TD05...

EMS

Mark,

You are right I meant TMIC! (changed this now)

10 - 15 BHP after remap, my guess is around 5 - 10 BHP without remap. It is clearly noticable with the "butt dyno" though! The car is noticable quicker above 5000 RPM.

Mark.

markwild

LOL at Butt Dyno !

Cheers me dears,

Mark

jap-si

Harvey, as you may notice i'm quite new to SN and don't know who people are and their experience/knowledge. But i don't like being accused of something i certainly haven't done...
to quote you:

Quote:
Jap Si : I think you talk completely out of turn.
"as I only heard it through general chat....."

[/QUOTE]

For one thing, if you are going to quote me, then quote exactly what i said (or asked you in this case)
And as for the rest:
These are by no means statements of fact they are only opinions and observations and if you read them correctly, then they could only be taken as such.

I may be new to SN as i said, and you may be an old hat at this and have a considerable knowledge of Impreza's, but having read all the troubles and car modifying that some of your group buyers have had to do, then my
PERSONAL OPINION is that you may have got more than the interests of other SN members at heart when recommending the Hybrid. Especially as you are dismissing the Lag "Myth" when talking about the Hybrid, yet i have read articles from big manufacturers (Pace as an example) who have decades of experience in designing inter coolers, and who have developed a product for the Impreza with one of the main aims being to reduce the length of pipe work to prevent increased lag time.
From the pictures of the pipework on the Hybrid it looks like they couldn't have made them any longer, and although you have said the Hybrid is a well designed and manufactured piece of kit, the fact that people have taken up to five days to fit the thing and are having cut their car to bits, doesn't say they are well designed to me! (my opinion, not a fact).
I can imagine front bumpers from scrap yards will soon be like "Hen's Teeth" if people get it wrong when fitting this kit. It wouldn't be me that's for sure, if you cocked it up once, how much would it cost for another bumper and a spray job if you couldn't find one to match, add that to your £450 and you could buy a Pace or one of the many other makes that has been manufactured or distributed in this country, and at least you can get spares for them (has anyone asked that question yet of the Hybrid...what about a replacement core if it gets damaged by something hitting it etc.)

I know that these comments are probably going to cause a bit of a stir, and it might sound daft, but I don't mean them to cause offense to you Harvey as i'm certainly not questioning your knowledge of the car, but from the amount of people that seem to be following you down the Hybrid road because you say it works for you does worry me slightly because what if there turns out to be a fly in the ointment with this product further down the road, for example who is going to pay for someones loss if their car goes up in flames because the metal pipes short out on the battery for example (it appears that someone has already had a close call with this potential problem). Pace will be heavily insured against product design defects. I don't know if you are, but if you are bringing these Hybrids in Harvey, does that mean you are responsible for any such problems? (just something for you to think about)
Liability insurance is something my friend (who imports goods from China) takes very seriously indeed, because he is the first one to say "They are cheap for a reason".

Harvey, I really hope you don't take any of what i've said the wrong way, but i hope there maybe something i've said that makes you stop and think before you really push your views on to people where they seem to take you so seriously that they don't make decisions for themselves... remember with SN you should be helping people to pick what products they want not telling them what to buy.


P.S. were you talking to me about that other similar user name or was that meant for him, as i couldn't figure out what you meant?

Adam M

Jap si, dont mean to be rude, but you are talking nonsense.

harvey is one of the few people who makes it his personal crusade to help others and share everything from the benefit of his own experience. It is naive of you to suggest he as an ulterior motive when you havent been here long and dont know what he is like.

The hybrid doesnt claim to be the best fmic, but it is easily the cheapest complete system.

As for the pace which you go on about. perhaps you should look into how it performs. Pace's years of experience which you refer to managed to help them produce a sub standard product which simply didn't perform. The design brief of the intercooler was not theirs it was suggested by a third party and developed using a customers car (mine) over a three week period. We were the ones who urged for the short pipe length and having experienced cars with long pipe work, I would tend to agree with harvey that it isnt a big issue and is barely noticable.

Yes the pace doesnt require you to cut the bumper, but it gives rise to water temp and fan connection issues. It also doesnt take full advantage of the area available because pace preferred to use the same core that they produce in bulk for their rs500 application. This saadly has a decent frontal area but not much depth thus its volume is so small that the space velocity of the core is very high leading to charge temperatures which are less than remarkable when compared with the likes of the hybrid, aps, hks etc,

My personal favourite however is the lateral performance fmic, purely because it fulfills exactly what pace were requested to produce but failed.

jap-si

Hi Adam
This is not directly a reply to you , i just feel i want to make it clear what i meant with my last post. However, point taken about the Pace, it was just an example though of a manufacturer who does have some credability within the industry (although not for the Impreza it now seems) who did mention the existance of lag, but i also do not confess to having a great knowledge myself on the subject, that is why my comments are meant to make people think, yes Harvey has a good technical knowledge, that i believe, and again i'm definately not having a go at him personally. BUT... my point is this (and this is an observation from someone who is so new to SN that it could be said that it's an outsiders view) that you have got to be so careful about how things are pushed on here, what if Harvey does bring these into the country and as you say he has no vested interest in selling them apart from saving us guys a fortune (don't forget i could also benefit from one of these) and someone has a major problem with it, even though it's only £400 to £450, where can they go if they have a problem with it and god forbid anything really bad happened as a result of this kit, there could be no comeback for us at all, and where would that leave the guys that organised the group buy?
If anything it is more of a caution to Harvey and the other god sends that we have on here who have got the technical knowhow to help us with our problems, not to get involved in promoting stuff when people look up to them, especially if they are effectively the salesman (i.e. organising a group buy on something that has no sales back up for us to contact direct ourselves)
At least if someones car blew up as a result of a technical defect with say a HKS fmic (i know it's unlikley) but at least we could contact the distributor and chase them for compensation.

It's bad enough that the guys that buy the Hybrid have to cut their bumpers at all, but with the extent of cutting involved what the likes of Harvey should be doing on here is using their vast knowledge and comparing all the fmics on a good and bad points basis and in the Hybrids case, warning of the amount of work involved with fitting this kit over the obvious cost saving So that we can make our own minds up. Instead all i have read from Harvey to date is him praising every aspect of it and saying if you're going to buy an fmic then buy this one cause it's better, fair enough it's by far the cheapest, but it appears to be far from easy to fit. (We have a saying in my area and that's "He can't see past it", in other words he will not say that another make is better no matter what even if it does have some better points). Finally he has just mentioned to someone who is looking to get one, that he's trying to sort out a few things with Hybrid that he's not happy with....What are these things and if he hasn't already done so, why hasn't he posted the question of problems with the existing version to everyone else... for us all to read, or does he not want us to think there are any problems with the existing Hybrid, mind you if he does that, are some of the people that bought one of the last lot going to complain and want it swapped for a new version or their money back?
I'm not trying to cause an argument with anyone over my views, but we all have our right to say what we think, and what i have said is the way that the subject of i/coolers comes across to me when i read all the threads on the subject of them here on SN.