Austrian Impreza

iTrader: (9)

Could you please let me know some numbers you guys use, please?!

Cars spec:
I´m using the PowerFC with Datalogit and the AVCR to control boost.
MY00 with closed deck 2.2l with V6 heads and the turbo is a RCM GT30 hybrid and I went the FMIC route with one of Harveys GT-Spec Intercoolers!

Here are my numbers.
AFR:
from 14.7 at no boost
to 13.2 at 0bar
going upwards to 11.0 at 1.7bar

IGN:
at cruiseload and speed 47°
when boost going to positiv it´s about 40°
dropping to 22° at max.boost
going to about 28° at the end of the rev (7500rpm)

KNOCK:
no more than 12 at full boost and upwards
only 1 at cruise and low loads as well as until 1bar it only shows 5 at a maximum.
I think this is VERY conservative of course, but I´m just going to do more to the ignition, not even touched it after the FMIC installation 3 month ago!

Would be great if someone could let me know if the timing is far off and what the knocklevels are on your cars!

Many thanks for your help!
Greets from Vienna!
Markus

Austrian Impreza

iTrader: (9)

anyone?

Austrian Impreza

iTrader: (9)

nobody?! ;(

Austrian Impreza

iTrader: (9)

please!!!

Scooby Jonni

I asked a similar question a month or so ago and got a similar response It seems people like to keep their cards close to their chest when it comes to EMS. Try asking on romraider.com I found them to be a lot more helpful.

And if you have any luck please let me know!

Austrian Impreza

iTrader: (9)

Will let you know whenever I was able to find out!
By the way what setup and map do you have?

I saw that I even have 14 AFR @ 0bar...
Is it possible that spool is held back through too less fuel?

Scooby Jonni

I'm still in the learning stage really. I've read a couple of books and a lot of articles of the internet and going to have a go at mapping soon. My car is a V3 STI RA with headers, decat exhaust, induction kit, FMIC and a VF23.

I wouldn't have thought so. The perfect AFR is about 14.7 the only reason to lean it out is to prevent det. Maybe try adding more fuel and pushing the timing a bit more. If you get some det cans you can listen for det and retard the timing to just before the def happened. From my understanding, you should be looking to set your MAP to mean best tourque up until the point of det then about 1 - 2* below the point of det for the rest. The AFRs in your first post look good to me.

This is how i've been told to map:

1. Find MBT for stoic and low load at different RPM
2. Set the same ignition advance for each fixed RPM
3. Find knock limited load value at each RPM
4. Enrich mixture starting from knock limited load
5. Find max allowed ignition timing for knock limited cells and give safety gaps.

(Credit to Sasha_A80)

Hope that helps.

Austrian Impreza

iTrader: (9)

Thanks for the writeup, there is only the thing, who to find the MBT...
I know that the Power FC does read knock quite good, so if my knocklevels (max 15 and average 5-8 on full boost) are that low, I might be far off the MBT...isn´t it?!

I ever thought more ignition is more power, but that seems to be wrong.
As well I wonder why it doesn´t knock more with the high ignition set (23°IGN@1.7bar on peak torque around 4500rpm)
Might a turbo as big as mine need much less timing?!

Jam Performance

iTrader: (3)

https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-...learn-how.html

Austrian Impreza

iTrader: (9)

That´s a good writeup, many thanks!!!

But would like to know an answer to my question, please!

STiFreak

iTrader: (4)

General consensus is that you won't get near MBT on road fuel (you will hit the knock limit first).

If you have added a decent FMIC, you should definitely be able to add more advance (a few degrees at least) due to the improved charge cooling.

If you haven't already, get or make some detcans and confirm what your Power FC is reading. You can then safely advance timing until you start to reach the knock limit. Take your time, make small changes and log.

Austrian Impreza

iTrader: (9)

Oh the FMIC is installed of course and it shows even with leaner mixture on top less knock than before with the STI V8 TMIC!
Good to hear that I might be able to advance timing.
Will test this soon!
But I thought 23°IGN @ 1.7bar with such a huge turbo might be too much...

Scooby Jonni

I beleive i'm correct in saying that MBT can be achieved but only at low loads.

To find it: Drive car in closed loop mode at a constant RPM, keep increasing the timing until the MAF and MAP stop decreasing (leaving the most retarded ignition timing where the sensor voltages are at their lowest).

As STiFreak said you really need to build some det cans as the knock sensor is not 100% reliable.

Heres a guide: Scoobypedia | Trusted knowledge for everything Subaru | Knowledge / Make Your Own Det Cans

At higher loads you want the timing to be 1 - 2 degrees away from the point at which you can hear det.

Hope that helps. I'd be very interested to hear your progress.

Austrian Impreza

iTrader: (9)

I might have advanced ignition far over MBT...
Anyone who could tell me what IGN is used normally on such a big turbo conversion?

MartynJ

I would get some detcans before you go any further as your knock sensor may not be giving you a true reading. Your ignition figures @ 1.7 bar don't sound mean, if anything you could be over the top.
Mixture sounds just fine !

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Absolutely. (apart from cruise values)

As MartynJ says - mixture looks safe and fine - i presume you are measuring with wideband rather than factory narrowband.

Every engine and combination of components works differently so it is really difficult to compare timing figures with others. If you are running std fuel I would keep advancing until you hear det through the det cans and then back it off a bit. Obviously Det cans are essential for this.

Be aware that changing timing can have an impact on measured AFR's so keep checking these are near your targets.

Austrian Impreza

iTrader: (9)

Thanks for your input, that´s fine to hear.
I really have to get detcans it seems, but my mechanic told me I might not hear this noise with them and there are no 100% reliable ways to say if it is real knock or not! ;(

How can I use EGT as a display when I make a 4th gear WOT run?
Is this possible or only when I hold the enigne at a point in the map or on 6th gear WOT runs, due to longer time in the same cell?

So my timing might be over the MBT with 22° @4400rpm and 1.7bar with such a big turbo like mine?
Maybe if I retard timing some degrees it might feel better?

If I retard IGN AFR might go a bit to the lean side, right?

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Your mechanic is wrong - you will be able to hear det with det cans. that is why they are called det cans The phormula KS3 or 4 offer a good way of measuring real det but ultimately the ears are the best tool for that job without going into really very expensive solutions.

Austrian Impreza

iTrader: (9)

Is it possible to use a knockdetector and the stock knocksensor together with in place?
I have a Link knocklink at home, but never thought about fitting it, due to knockvalue readings in the Power FC.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Just make some det cans like I did here:

Scoobypedia | Trusted knowledge for everything Subaru | Knowledge / Make Your Own Det Cans

Ears rarely lie.

Austrian Impreza

iTrader: (9)

Thanks for this article!
How and where did you bolt the end to the engineblock?

Austrian Impreza

iTrader: (9)

The knocksensor seems to read quite good, as I have seen on some logs (displaying them with Excel) that during shifting into the next gear I run a little lean - maybe because of the longer pipework of the FMIC) and then it shows knock between 8 and 10 at 13.1AFR @1bar and 45°IGN no throttle applied!
So I might be okay with the numbers of 15 at max, even if I think I can have much higher numbers due to the forged internals, what do you think?

Will have to make some detcans and try them out!

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

I was speaking to Paul at Zen when my WRX was in for an engine rebuild. He said that at around 20 on the Commander the engine, through the det cans, is getting 'sparkly' i.e. the first vestiges of det setting in. Then by about 40, it sounds like 'drawing pins (thumb tacks) hitting the bottom of a coffee tin' i.e. 'proper' det - albeit not 'heavy' det (at least that's how I understood it).

I think this is based on the early MY93-96 phase 1 EJ20G engine... not sure if later engines det at similar Commander ballpark values though.

Semper

THE KNOCK BOX CC - Knock sound recordings

MartynJ

All of what you have said my have some grounds, but it is very engine dependant. Don't forget that the knock levels are dependant on background engine noise, and what appears as knock on one engine, is simply noise on another, that is why checking it with detcans is the only way to know for sure.
If you are logging with a laptop and FCEDIT, det can be easier to pick up as it will probably appear as a proper spike in the log, but this isn't always the case.

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

Yes sorry Martyn, I was aware of the above (as Paul helpfully echoed exactly what you have said too)...I ideally should have qualified my post with it, though.

My post was only inteneded as rough guide for the OP to gain some kind of foothold (if he needs it) as to what to possibly expect to hear at certain Commander values - it was in no way intended as an 'absolute', etc...


MR2 Turbo?! (for example)

Austrian Impreza

iTrader: (9)

Thanks guys, so does a forged engine tend to have higher knocklevels or lower?
Is there a rough guide?
But I take 15 at high rev should be okay in any way.

Oh and MANY THANKS for the link Semper, that´s very helpful!!!

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Get your det cans sorted and you will hear it for yourself - there is no hard and fast rule. For the sake of an hour making them instead of posting questions on questions you would have your answer.

Forged engines are generally noisier. I set up my KS3 gain rate to echo what I hear in the det cans (and also what the ecu sees) - works perfectly.

Austrian Impreza

iTrader: (9)

Will do that of course, just wanted to know some rough rules I can follow afterwards!
Be patient with me!

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Not being funny but..

Build them
Listen to them
Equate what you hear to what you see

=> rough guidelines