Maldge

My beloved 99 UK Turbo 2000 went into the garage 2 days ago for a whinning noise from the rear. After looking at it and not been able to locate where the noise is coming from, i was given a bill for 80 quid and told to let the noise develop.......................fair enough . After driving about 3 miles, the car started hesitating, holding back & also hunting on idle. The "Check Engine" light has now come on and there is a really strong smell of fuel! Im guessing that its just a coincidence that this has happened just after its come out of the garage but has anyone got any ideas on what could be the problem??

Thanks

Splitpin

Welcome. It may or may not be a coincidence that the car started acting up after its visit to the garage. They may have accidentally disconnected or broken something, and it's also possible simply disconnecting the battery while they worked on it might be a factor - as this will reset the ECU and can thus potentially expose issues that might be pre-existing, but masked by the ECUs ability to "learn" round some slow-developing problems.

Had the presets on your radio been lost when you got back in the car? This at least would indicate whether the power had been taken off, although it's still possible that the garage could have electively reset it. Incidentally, is this a garage that actually knows about Subarus or just a local general mechanic?

Anyway, the symptoms you're reporting are potentially indicative of a couple of different problems. Before going any further find the pair of black and pair of green plugs under the dash. These may be taped up around, or hanging loose next to the wiring loom running into the interior fuse box behind the coin tray. Sit next to the open door and crane your head up under the lower dash cowl and you should see them.

Once located connect the black plugs together, switch the ignition on and watch the flash sequence on the check engine light closely. Long flashes are tens and short flashes are ones, so two long flashes and three short = 23, three long and two short = 32 etc. Post back telling us what the number(s) are, this should narrow things down considerably.

If you have the option it'd also be worth avoiding driving the car until you've got this diagnosed. At least a couple the potential causes (a failing mass airflow sensor and/or a failing fuel pump) can lead to engine damage if you drive hard on them. If you do have to use it, keep your foot right off the throttle.

As far as the original "whining" noise is concerned, is this something you can only hear with the car in motion, or is it also perceptible at a standstill? If the former, does the frequency change with speed, and does it disappear (or change in tone/volume) according to whether you're accelerating or decelerating, or whether your foot's on the clutch or not?

Maldge

Thanks Splitpin, I called the garage again this morning and have just got back to work from dropping my car off with them. They said that they are going to check the light in the same way that you have explained. Hopefully it will be something and nothing. I have had to drive the car about 30miles so I hope its not caused any more problems

I really do need to find a garage nearby that I can trust. The garage that it has gone to do not fill me with confidence.

The noise on the back is really strange, its like a constant whirring / grating noise when driving but doesnt change pitch or get any louder with speed. Its not a really loud noise but it is definatly there.

tjmatt

iTrader: (1)

Smell of fuel suggests too rich, as would a hunting idle. I wonder if for some reason the fuel pressure regulator is not working and fuel pressure is very high and the fuel pump is whining as a result. Any chance the fuel filter or regulator have been plumbed in the wrong way?

Maldge

The whinning was there before the car started playing up so Im not sure that these are related, It is possible though. I have owned the car since Christmas so if things were plumbed in the wrong way, would they have shown to be at fault straight away rather than taking months to show up?

Splitpin

Did they already know about the black plugs/ECU read memory mode, or did you have to pass on what I'd written before they were aware of it?

As above the key consideration in this situation is to keep the car off boost, so provided you've done that there shouldn't be any damage done. Let us know what the garage say about the CEL codes and things will hopefully become clear pretty quick. Would also be worth you telling us as much as you know about the car re. any modifications or state of tune. Matt may have a point re. pressure reg but this doesn't immediately sound likely, especially if your car's standardish. Again the more you can tell us the better.

If they already knew about the black plugs that would at least suggest they have a modicum of clue, but a place that really knows these cars would help.

The noise on the back is really strange, its like a constant whirring / grating noise when driving but doesnt change pitch or get any louder with speed. Its not a really loud noise but it is definatly there.[/QUOTE]

Silly/obvious question, have you or the garage positively ruled out low rear brake pads (i.e. pad wear indicators)? The other obvious one would be a noisy wheel bearing.

Are you also certain you only hear it when the car's actually moving? If so that pretty much rules out the fuel pump/pressure reg explanation.

Maldge

Silly/obvious question, have you or the garage positively ruled out low rear brake pads (i.e. pad wear indicators)? The other obvious one would be a noisy wheel bearing.

Are you also certain you only hear it when the car's actually moving? If so that pretty much rules out the fuel pump/pressure reg explanation.[/quote]

Yeah they already knew about checking the codes through the black plugs so at least thats a good sign. I will let you know the codes that have come up when they call me.

I bought the car from a friend who owned it for about 5 years and it never missed a beat. Its got a K&N induction kit, 1st cat back Tony banks stainless exhaust, Bailey BOV and a Superchip (which i will be taking off and getting a re-map soon, as I have heard bad things about these).

The garage apparently stripped down the brakes etc at the rear yesterday so they should have picked up on the low pads I think. I will check about the noise been there when the car is stationary as I have not noticed it then. It is certainly much louder when moving anyway. They checked the wheel bearings too and said that they seemed ok but I think tbh the pitch of the noise would surely change with speed if it was a bearing??

Splitpin

Induction kits are not a good idea on these cars when running MAF-based management (especially non-mapped). They don't do anything positive unless you're running quite a lot of power and cause potentially serious problems. Hearing that yours has one, along with what you said before about hunting idle, promotes a suspicion that one of the diagnostic trouble codes the garage will get back to you with will be 23.

If your friend sold you the standard parts (or still has them in his garage) you'd be well advised to refit them.

Again best thing you can do is get rid and replace with standard. The need isn't as pressing as with the induction/filter but your engine will run better with the OE valve.

Yes, taking off without delay would be a good idea. If you want more power either go simple with a Dawes Device (or similar) for a subtle boost or have the ECU remapped properly.

You'd think so but often it doesn't work that way. As you say you'd hope they'd have picked up low pads when they looked at it, but worth a peep through the wheel yourself.

Maldge

Sorry for the delay getting back on here, ive been working away for most of the weekend. Well it's still in the garage and they told me on friday that the MAF was at fault so they were ordering a new one and fitting it today (£198 fitted). Amazingly there supplier hasn't delivered it today so they need to keep it overnight.......................................ag ain!! Im starting to forget what my car looks like now lol. Im going to have a look at the rear brakes myself when I get the car back and go from there, hopefully that should be tomorrow.

Scooby715

£198 fitted !!! wow sorry mate but it sounds to me that garage is having your pants down there.... I got a MAF for my 00 model (same MAF as yours) direct from subaru an it was £114 so i'd be a bit wary of anything else they charge you 4 too.

Do yourself a favour though bud and listen to Splitpin , he helped me suss mine out when i was going through the same problems, which (surprise surprise) it had a crappy induction kit on and it was eating MAF's like they were going out of fashion. I bought a std airbox off ebay slapped it on, new MAF and hey presto runs like a dream.

The garage may have put you a new MAF on, but with that induction kit still on it might not last very long, they don't seem to like the oil some filters are soaked in (K&N, HKS etc), but worst is the vibration damage which causes the MAF to fail.

If you have the airbox i would stick it on sharpish, or get one bought and park it up in the mean time - sounds a bit ott, but its better than buying another new MAF sensor IMHO!!

Splitpin

Maldge, as Scooby715 says, £200 for a new airflow meter is taking the p*ss bigstyle. The idea of them charging for "fitting" is a joke when it involves five screws, one connector and takes a maximum of five minutes including opening and closing the bonnet.

The Subaru part number is 22794AA010 (which I now know off the top of my head!) and as S715 has said is just over £100 from a dealer. Should be less from somewhere like Import Car Parts.

If I were you I'd gently suggest to the garage that you'll be paying no more than that given the hassle and delay you've been faced with. I'd also ensure that the sensor they fit is a genuine Subaru one rather than a third party copy. As has also been said, that induction kit really needs replacing with the standard stuff sharpish.

Scooby - one minor point of clarification - there is no problem at all with K&N (panel) filters, I use one on my own car. They do not shed oil into the induction tract and so do not contaminate the sensor. Different story with some of the other types. As you say though when these 99/00 sensors fail it is almost always as a result of vibration fracturing the tiny wires which connect the hot film element to the processing circuit board.

Maldge

It does sound like they are trying to bend me over! I will defo contest the bill anyway because of all the hassle I have had with them. Unfortunatley I dont have the standard air box assy as the guy didn't have it when I bought the car. I will have to get hold of one from somewhere. I had a Bug eye WRX 2 years ago which had the standard air box with a Green Cotton panel filter, that seemed pretty good. It looks like im going to remove the BOV and superchip too. It may depress me tho, as the car feels fast with them. I was talking to someone the other day that mentioned a Gems ECU was the way to go, that would eliminate the need for a MAF!?!

Splitpin

Indeed. Green, K&N, Cosworth panel filters are all fine from a performance and reliability point of view - although at the level you're at there isn't a significant amount of "extra" performance to be gained from the filter and intake setup anyway. The most important thing is to get it all to function reliably.

Refitting the standard dumpvalve will, if anything, make it a tiny bit faster so there'll be no need for depression there. As for the superchip, if you take it off and your car feels a bit less lively, you can console yourself in the thought that it'll be a darn sight less likely to blow itself up.

That someone is considerably behind the times. The GEMS implant is old technology nowadays - the standard ECU has a faster and more powerful processor, and you should get a better result from having that remapped than going to a GEMS, and at considerably less overall cost. The dependence on the airflow meter isn't a problem if you're running a sensible induction arrangement, the modified sensor Subaru have been selling for the last few years is far more robust than the earlier ones.

If you did want to go MAFless you'd go for something like a Simtek or Solaris nowadays - although if EcuTeK ever decided to pull their fingers out and offer it as an option, the standard one can do it too.

Maldge

That is very true, I suppose its piece of mind that it should be more reliable without the superchip . Have you got any idea what an Ecu-tek remap should cost and what sort of gains I should expect?

Splitpin

Very much so. Anything that interferes with the ECUs ability to directly control the engine is better off avoided when the option to do what you want via mapping is there. There are specific exceptions under certain circumstances (i.e. Dawes Devices etc) but with these it's always important to remember their limitations.

You'll have to speak to the individual mappers to find out what they charge but a figure of around £550 to £600 is probably in the ballpark. For that, and given your car in its current state of tune, with the standard induction on, you could reasonably expect something in the region of 260 to 270bhp and around 260lb/ft of torque, with an improvement in driveability that actually feels greater than 25% or so.

Some simple and (relatively cheap) mods could increase this by another 10-20 - decat downpipe and new age WRX intercooler/dumpvalve for example. If you want to go further than that the world's your oyster but you start looking at changing the turbo and making other mods to support.

The most important thing to remember with a real remap though is that, as above, you can drive away with the confidence that you're getting the best out of the hardware under the bonnet, and whatever power it's making is being produced in a sustainable and safe manner.

Maldge

Well I have finally got her back. It seems to drive ok so I will see how it goes now. Had a quick look on the intake pipe and can't really see whats been replaced. Maybe its just something that I cant see. There seems to be a bit of a smell of oil now, had a look under the bonnet and it looks lik a pipe that comes from the intercooler is slightly leaking so I will have a propper look at that. Hopefully thats all it is. Its defo the last time it goes anywhere near those COWBOYS!!

I will have a look at remaps and get rid of the chip, BOV and induction kit ASAP. I think the chip is under the dash. I presume it just unplugs, so I will take that off tonight.

I will have a look and see if I can solve the wierd noise from the back too, just drove it back to work and it seems to be getting slightly louder.

Maldge

Splitpin,
My car is running great now, thanks for your help. I spoke to the guy that I bought the car from regarding removing the Superchip. This is what he said:

"Yeah the superchip is in the passenger footwell. That's where the ecu is. Its pretty simple to take off. You will also have to remove the boost valve. That's in the engine and has to be connected back upto to something (don't know what though)"

Have you any idea what he is talking about with the boost valve?

Splitpin

Have already largely dealt with this in the other thread Maldge. Could make a pretty good guess what has been done but, in this case, pictures really would be worth a thousand words.

Look at the back of the black plastic tube immediately after the induction kit. You should see an electrical connector plugged into a black plastic device secured by two security torx screws to a metal flange, which is itself fixed to the tube by three (smaller and countersunk) s-torx screws. The black plastic bit should have a stripe of green paint and white printed date- and part codes on it. That's the air flow sensor.