90 good reasons to avoid cheap eBay headers
06 September 2012, 07:32 AM
#1
90 good reasons to avoid cheap eBay headers
Excuse the squiggle but blue line is classic on a Alcatek with toyosports equal length headers, red is the same car a week later after I told him to put the std headers back on !!
Same boost profile for both.
Seen 5 sets of these recently and this is the 5th customer that was massively disappointed with them. Mostly they won't rev past 5500 !!
Amazing that the design is so poor that the back pressure stops nearly a third I the power.
AVOID
06 September 2012, 09:37 AM
#5
What is causing the back pressure on the ebay one's? The design or thickness?. If these are copies you'd think they'd at least copy the design.
Last edited by Kwik; 06 September 2012 at 09:39 AM.
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06 September 2012, 11:55 PM
#14
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Does the rcm up-pipe not work to good though? Sure iv read your best off with rcm headers and Harvey up-pipe..
Myself I have gt spec headers with standard sti up-pipe 337/350 @ 1.2 bar on a vf35,so that set must be working
Myself I have gt spec headers with standard sti up-pipe 337/350 @ 1.2 bar on a vf35,so that set must be working
08 September 2012, 10:03 AM
#16
GT2 Spec type headers are the 3 bolt headers sold by RCMS and distributed amongst various supply houses and these are the tubular headers I sell.
The uppipe design is crap hence the need for my "Trick" uppipe which improves torque across the rev range and greatly improves spool as those who have changed to this uppipe will confirm.
Prior to the GT2 Spec type header sets we had the GT Spec type header sets and these were 2 bolt but again the uppipe design was flawed and for that reason I now produce a 2 bolt "Trick" uppipe to give owners of the 2 bolt GT Spec type header sets the same gains as enjoyed by those wih 3 bolt GT2 Spec type headers. It may sound confusing but quite simple in reality.
Good test Duncan. Do you have photographs of the headers tested?
Can you do the same for cheap intercooler kits
The uppipe design is crap hence the need for my "Trick" uppipe which improves torque across the rev range and greatly improves spool as those who have changed to this uppipe will confirm.
Prior to the GT2 Spec type header sets we had the GT Spec type header sets and these were 2 bolt but again the uppipe design was flawed and for that reason I now produce a 2 bolt "Trick" uppipe to give owners of the 2 bolt GT Spec type header sets the same gains as enjoyed by those wih 3 bolt GT2 Spec type headers. It may sound confusing but quite simple in reality.
Good test Duncan. Do you have photographs of the headers tested?
Can you do the same for cheap intercooler kits
Last edited by harvey; 08 September 2012 at 12:39 PM.
08 September 2012, 11:16 AM
#17
Scooby Regular
I wouldn't normally disagree with you Harvey as we seem to see eye to eye on a lot of things. However, your statement is a bit sweeping in general and flawed, as whilst your trick uppipe may improve the cars at the lower end of the spectrum (Very well in fact as I have first hand experience of it), it may limit those at the higher end of it.
08 September 2012, 12:43 PM
#18
Well we are agreed that cars at the lower end of the spectrum benefit from my uppipe.
I will go as far as to say that all cars fitted with the RCM header sets will benefit from a swap to my "Trick" uppipe in terms of spool, regardless of power potential.
I also believe, as I have discussed in detail with Olly Clark that there will be little or no need for my uppipe on track cars or cars kept consistantly above 4500 RPM simply because the turbo is already spooled to 1 bar by that point.
Where do you think the higher end of the spectrum is? At some point there is obviously a trade off between improved spool and torque across the rev range and absolute headline figure. However, there are plenty cars in the 500-600 bhp bracket that have benefited from my Trick uppipe without any loss of headline figure and there are good torque improvements right across the rev range.
Do you have any graphs and at what point does the swap over to the Trick uppipe lose the advantage?
Duncan, check with Olly but the design has not yet been updated but I do hope it is.
I will go as far as to say that all cars fitted with the RCM header sets will benefit from a swap to my "Trick" uppipe in terms of spool, regardless of power potential.
I also believe, as I have discussed in detail with Olly Clark that there will be little or no need for my uppipe on track cars or cars kept consistantly above 4500 RPM simply because the turbo is already spooled to 1 bar by that point.
Where do you think the higher end of the spectrum is? At some point there is obviously a trade off between improved spool and torque across the rev range and absolute headline figure. However, there are plenty cars in the 500-600 bhp bracket that have benefited from my Trick uppipe without any loss of headline figure and there are good torque improvements right across the rev range.
Do you have any graphs and at what point does the swap over to the Trick uppipe lose the advantage?
The std gt spec uppipe works great. The design has been updated to give the same impact as Harvey's to the best of my knowledge.
08 September 2012, 02:02 PM
#19
I wouldn't normally disagree with you Harvey as we seem to see eye to eye on a lot of things. However, your statement is a bit sweeping in general and flawed, as whilst your trick uppipe may improve the cars at the lower end of the spectrum (Very well in fact as I have first hand experience of it), it may limit those at the higher end of it.
08 September 2012, 04:51 PM
#20
Scooby Regular
Well we are agreed that cars at the lower end of the spectrum benefit from my uppipe.
I will go as far as to say that all cars fitted with the RCM header sets will benefit from a swap to my "Trick" uppipe in terms of spool, regardless of power potential.
I also believe, as I have discussed in detail with Olly Clark that there will be little or no need for my uppipe on track cars or cars kept consistantly above 4500 RPM simply because the turbo is already spooled to 1 bar by that point.
Where do you think the higher end of the spectrum is? At some point there is obviously a trade off between improved spool and torque across the rev range and absolute headline figure. However, there are plenty cars in the 500-600 bhp bracket that have benefited from my Trick uppipe without any loss of headline figure and there are good torque improvements right across the rev range.
Do you have any graphs and at what point does the swap over to the Trick uppipe lose the advantage?
.
I will go as far as to say that all cars fitted with the RCM header sets will benefit from a swap to my "Trick" uppipe in terms of spool, regardless of power potential.
I also believe, as I have discussed in detail with Olly Clark that there will be little or no need for my uppipe on track cars or cars kept consistantly above 4500 RPM simply because the turbo is already spooled to 1 bar by that point.
Where do you think the higher end of the spectrum is? At some point there is obviously a trade off between improved spool and torque across the rev range and absolute headline figure. However, there are plenty cars in the 500-600 bhp bracket that have benefited from my Trick uppipe without any loss of headline figure and there are good torque improvements right across the rev range.
Do you have any graphs and at what point does the swap over to the Trick uppipe lose the advantage?
.
A step down in size is by nature a restriction, whether that restriction is enough to cause a loss of power needs to be proven of course.
Back to back reqd I think
08 September 2012, 09:04 PM
#21
I haven't, but I'm really interested in your findings as to whether a 500+ bhp car would continue to keep all of its headline figure when swapped to your trick up pipe.
A step down in size is by nature a restriction, whether that restriction is enough to cause a loss of power needs to be proven of course.
Back to back reqd I think
A step down in size is by nature a restriction, whether that restriction is enough to cause a loss of power needs to be proven of course.
Back to back reqd I think
At some point, quite obviously, the reduced diameter will become a restriction but even then you have to balance the gains already achieved. Much earlier spool and greater torque right across the rev range from really low down. I guess on a 600 bhp plus car that may cost a very small amount in headline figure but what about the earlier spool and fatter toque curve all the way from the start of the RR plot.
A step down in size is by nature a restriction
How many 600 plus bhp cars are there?
I have never had one to do back to back tests on but will do at some time in the future. There are many owners out there with 500 bhp plus cars that are very happy with the uppipe and I am yet to sell one of these uppipes to anybody that was not happy with the gains.
You said I made a sweeping statement. I know the product well and the process of development was thorough. You cannot fit this uppipe without a remap because of the considerable difference it makes and requirement for more fuel much lower in the map.
You have raised a doubt. I was hoping you would have factual information. I hope I have answered your concerns but regardless and not related to this thread, an independant third party, with all the testing facilities is producing back to back results in the very near future. I expect that at some point they will share these results.
Last edited by harvey; 08 September 2012 at 09:08 PM.
09 September 2012, 12:48 AM
#22
Scooby Regular
We arenot only interested in flow, otherwise we would all run 76mm uppipes to give a ridiculous example. We need flow and velocity for the discharged cylinder gas to do its job and finding this balance took 12 months of continual development and flow bench testing. It is not just reducing the diameter but finding the ideal diameter for the range of turbos catered for but even more importantly how and where that change is achieved.
At some point, quite obviously, the reduced diameter will become a restriction but even then you have to balance the gains already achieved. Much earlier spool and greater torque right across the rev range from really low down. I guess on a 600 bhp plus car that may cost a very small amount in headline figure but what about the earlier spool and fatter toque curve all the way from the start of the RR plot.
You obviously have not considered the fact that the uppipe supplied is not the riight diameter in the firstplace. ie. Way too big.
How many 600 plus bhp cars are there?
I have never had one to do back to back tests on but will do at some time in the future. There are many owners out there with 500 bhp plus cars that are very happy with the uppipe and I am yet to sell one of these uppipes to anybody that was not happy with the gains.
You said I made a sweeping statement. I know the product well and the process of development was thorough. You cannot fit this uppipe without a remap because of the considerable difference it makes and requirement for more fuel much lower in the map.
You have raised a doubt. I was hoping you would have factual information. I hope I have answered your concerns but regardless and not related to this thread, an independant third party, with all the testing facilities is producing back to back results in the very near future. I expect that at some point they will share these results.
At some point, quite obviously, the reduced diameter will become a restriction but even then you have to balance the gains already achieved. Much earlier spool and greater torque right across the rev range from really low down. I guess on a 600 bhp plus car that may cost a very small amount in headline figure but what about the earlier spool and fatter toque curve all the way from the start of the RR plot.
You obviously have not considered the fact that the uppipe supplied is not the riight diameter in the firstplace. ie. Way too big.
How many 600 plus bhp cars are there?
I have never had one to do back to back tests on but will do at some time in the future. There are many owners out there with 500 bhp plus cars that are very happy with the uppipe and I am yet to sell one of these uppipes to anybody that was not happy with the gains.
You said I made a sweeping statement. I know the product well and the process of development was thorough. You cannot fit this uppipe without a remap because of the considerable difference it makes and requirement for more fuel much lower in the map.
You have raised a doubt. I was hoping you would have factual information. I hope I have answered your concerns but regardless and not related to this thread, an independant third party, with all the testing facilities is producing back to back results in the very near future. I expect that at some point they will share these results.
If you have information coming to prove that they work well at that level too, I can't wait to see it
09 September 2012, 03:40 AM
#23
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I went from my stock manifold over to a cheep Ebay set back in the day and it felt like my car was being strangled above 5000rpm. A mate of mine went for a set of GT spec headers and 3 bolt up pipe when we had similar spec and the was an instant difference in spool and power. I ran out of money while doing a turbo swap to a GT40-88 ended up with a set of HKS headers choped back to the collector and a 3" up pipe. Spool would be better with a smaller up pipe and better still with a true twin scroll set up but i still get 1 bar by 3900rpm ish and my car pulls harder and harder up the rev range.
09 September 2012, 07:54 AM
#24
I hope the mfrs see this and change the products because they are quite frankly the worst waste of money I have ever seen. How anyone can sell these as an upgrade is beyond me.
As for the Harvey uppipe and gt spec headers uppipe debate, I have never found the need for extra spool on my turbo set ups over the years from Lateral and ran a std gt spec uppipe on mine until the twisted turbo set up. Mapped lots of cars with both and in most cars the harvey uppipe works great
09 September 2012, 09:39 AM
#25
Scooby Regular
I'd be particularly interested in a back to back test on a 2.1 fitted with an SC46 as we seem to do a fair few with that combination
Even on the non AVCS cars they spool so well that neither I or the owners have ever felt the need for anything to aid it. But if it is possible to add right across the midrange without losing any top end power, then that is of course something we want to use, so any properly gathered data to prove this will sell me on it.
09 September 2012, 10:12 AM
#26
Martyn : Sorry to go on about this but you said I made a sweeping statement which was flawed.
I have no recollection of any conversation over two years ago saying 500 bhp was the limit. There are many saitsfied customers now in the 500-600 bhp bracket. I do not know the point at which the Trick uppipe loses its advantage and it will vary from car to car but it is certainly well beyond 500 bhp on the cars I have direct experience of.
Why not poll the owners of cars that have gone from the OE supplied uppipe on RCMS header sets then on to the Trick uppipe and get their reaction.
Like I said, I am not aware I have sold a single Trick uppipe to anyone that has not seen specific gains. These have gone as far afield as Australia, USA,, Canada, Scandinavia, Middle East, Malta, Cyprus and all over Europe to people in the know
I have explained the factors above and pointed out quite clearly where the Trick uppipe will not provide a cost effective benefit. ie. track cars and cars driven on the road where there is no need for boost below the turbo spool point.
There is another consideration. In my experience, early spool is something that almost all owners want and this Trick uppipe specifically addresses that issue for those using the 3 bolt header sets, whether it be from RCMS, Lateral, Scooby Clinic, API, myself or whoever. Every car reacts differently and mapping plays a big part. It is not therefore possible to say that at xxx bhp you should use one uppipe or the other. Another variable factor is the owner's preference for spool and response against dyno queen figures at the very top end of the spectrum which will influence the choice but so far from my vast experience I have not found the point where this uppipe has become a constriction. It is well past 500 bhp. Even then it will still provide spool benefits regardless.
I am sure we are agreed that cars of 500-600 bhp are not the bottom end of the spectrum.
If you have a car in the 500-600 bhp bracket running the 3 bolt RCMS header set on the uppipe supplied I am happy to supply you with a Trick uppipe FOC providing you fit it with before and after dyno figures. Remember the car will need remapped and you leave the uppipe on the car for a few days for the owner to assess separately. It will also be interesting to compare the ignition, fuel and boost maps. If you are not happy with the uppipe I will arrange collection and you can put the old uppipe back on and if it stays on the car as I am sure it will, you pay for it. Can't be fairer than that.
a bit sweeping in general and flawed, as whilst your trick uppipe may improve the cars at the lower end of the spectrum (Very well in fact as I have first hand experience of it), it may limit those at the higher end of it.
Why not poll the owners of cars that have gone from the OE supplied uppipe on RCMS header sets then on to the Trick uppipe and get their reaction.
Like I said, I am not aware I have sold a single Trick uppipe to anyone that has not seen specific gains. These have gone as far afield as Australia, USA,, Canada, Scandinavia, Middle East, Malta, Cyprus and all over Europe to people in the know
I have explained the factors above and pointed out quite clearly where the Trick uppipe will not provide a cost effective benefit. ie. track cars and cars driven on the road where there is no need for boost below the turbo spool point.
There is another consideration. In my experience, early spool is something that almost all owners want and this Trick uppipe specifically addresses that issue for those using the 3 bolt header sets, whether it be from RCMS, Lateral, Scooby Clinic, API, myself or whoever. Every car reacts differently and mapping plays a big part. It is not therefore possible to say that at xxx bhp you should use one uppipe or the other. Another variable factor is the owner's preference for spool and response against dyno queen figures at the very top end of the spectrum which will influence the choice but so far from my vast experience I have not found the point where this uppipe has become a constriction. It is well past 500 bhp. Even then it will still provide spool benefits regardless.
your trick uppipe may improve the cars at the lower end of the spectrum (Very well in fact as I have first hand experience of it), it may limit those at the higher end of it.
If you have a car in the 500-600 bhp bracket running the 3 bolt RCMS header set on the uppipe supplied I am happy to supply you with a Trick uppipe FOC providing you fit it with before and after dyno figures. Remember the car will need remapped and you leave the uppipe on the car for a few days for the owner to assess separately. It will also be interesting to compare the ignition, fuel and boost maps. If you are not happy with the uppipe I will arrange collection and you can put the old uppipe back on and if it stays on the car as I am sure it will, you pay for it. Can't be fairer than that.
09 September 2012, 11:28 AM
#27
Scooby Regular
I said it was flawed because you called the GT spec uppipe CRAP, a harsh word to use considering the hundreds of sets people over the years have fitted prior to the existence of your trick uppipe, perhaps you could have said "If spool is the primary concern, the GT spec uppipe can be improved upon" ?
Considering the thread was actually started to show the real nature of poor headers/uppipe design, the GT spec uppipe is far from CRAP, in fact over the years we have fitted many many sets improving spool and overall torque when compared to the stock headers on every occasion when properly wrapped or ceramic coated.
I will happily trial one of your uppipes on our next SC46 2.1 combo, as that data will be more meaningful to me being a very common upgrade path at the moment.
The 500+bhp hybrid requests have fallen by the way side of late, with most favouring twisted kits for 5-600bhp.
I will of course happily reveal all of the data gathered from the dyno, subsequent road testing and data logs from the ecu.
Considering the thread was actually started to show the real nature of poor headers/uppipe design, the GT spec uppipe is far from CRAP, in fact over the years we have fitted many many sets improving spool and overall torque when compared to the stock headers on every occasion when properly wrapped or ceramic coated.
I will happily trial one of your uppipes on our next SC46 2.1 combo, as that data will be more meaningful to me being a very common upgrade path at the moment.
The 500+bhp hybrid requests have fallen by the way side of late, with most favouring twisted kits for 5-600bhp.
I will of course happily reveal all of the data gathered from the dyno, subsequent road testing and data logs from the ecu.
Last edited by MartynJ; 09 September 2012 at 11:33 AM.
10 September 2012, 07:42 AM
#28
Thousands of people bought Austin Metros which were crap but at the time acceptable.
The uppipe supplied is flawed for a number of reasons and it is a pity that at the source stage it was not radically redesigned. There were discussions on this. I can tell you in detail exactly why it is flawed but that will take up a thread on its own. That is now being taken care of but is taking time. Because of the poor design there was a clear need for an improved uppipe which is exactly what I produced. You are correct, the GT Spec headers are far from crap which I have already said, with reasonable thickness of material, quality tube bending, good flanges and quality welding, unfortunately let down by the uppipe which is why I have been able to sell so many and have so many satisfied customers across the world and it is that which motivated me to produce the 2 bolt Trick uppipe for the original GT Spec header sets, Gruppe S etc.
Here is what you said :
So it is the higher end of the spectrum we need to convince you on. I am already convinced from my existing experiences as are many of my customers some of whom are your customers too.
Here was my response :
As we have many satisfied SC46 owners we need to go to a level above that to show without doubt the benefits from the Trick uppipe at the top end of the spectrum. I take the SC46 to be a very good 450-460 bhp turbo on road fuel but it is hardly top of the spectrum. Stating that there are not many of these cars (500-600) about and some of them are on twisted turbo kits only validates the reasons why I cannot give you specific examples in the 500-600 bhp bracket but some customers might like to come back if they read this. Some of them, like my STi 3 Wagon at 521 bhp are on twin scroll set up.
Here is the offer I made:
That offer stands.
The uppipe supplied is flawed for a number of reasons and it is a pity that at the source stage it was not radically redesigned. There were discussions on this. I can tell you in detail exactly why it is flawed but that will take up a thread on its own. That is now being taken care of but is taking time. Because of the poor design there was a clear need for an improved uppipe which is exactly what I produced. You are correct, the GT Spec headers are far from crap which I have already said, with reasonable thickness of material, quality tube bending, good flanges and quality welding, unfortunately let down by the uppipe which is why I have been able to sell so many and have so many satisfied customers across the world and it is that which motivated me to produce the 2 bolt Trick uppipe for the original GT Spec header sets, Gruppe S etc.
Here is what you said :
However, your statement is a bit sweeping in general and flawed, as whilst your trick uppipe may improve the cars at the lower end of the spectrum (Very well in fact as I have first hand experience of it), it may limit those at the higher end of it.
Here was my response :
there are plenty cars in the 500-600 bhp bracket that have benefited from my Trick uppipe without any loss of headline figure and there are good torque improvements right across the rev range.
Do you have any graphs and at what point does the swap over to the Trick uppipe lose the advantage?
Do you have any graphs and at what point does the swap over to the Trick uppipe lose the advantage?
Here is the offer I made:
I am sure we are agreed that cars of 500-600 bhp are not the bottom end of the spectrum.
If you have a car in the 500-600 bhp bracket running the 3 bolt RCMS header set on the uppipe supplied I am happy to supply you with a Trick uppipe FOC providing you fit it with before and after dyno figures. Remember the car will need remapped and you leave the uppipe on the car for a few days for the owner to assess separately. It will also be interesting to compare the ignition, fuel and boost maps. If you are not happy with the uppipe I will arrange collection and you can put the old uppipe back on and if it stays on the car as I am sure it will, you pay for it. Can't be fairer than that.
If you have a car in the 500-600 bhp bracket running the 3 bolt RCMS header set on the uppipe supplied I am happy to supply you with a Trick uppipe FOC providing you fit it with before and after dyno figures. Remember the car will need remapped and you leave the uppipe on the car for a few days for the owner to assess separately. It will also be interesting to compare the ignition, fuel and boost maps. If you are not happy with the uppipe I will arrange collection and you can put the old uppipe back on and if it stays on the car as I am sure it will, you pay for it. Can't be fairer than that.
10 September 2012, 08:09 AM
#29
Scooby Regular
By PM if you prefer.
Back to the offer, I may have something to try it on, give me a week and I'll see what I can do.