Afternoon!

I have an old (but very faithful) Denon DCA-800 6 channel amp. What I'd like to do is use it in 3 channel x 100w (rms) mode, to power front speakers and a sub. The bridged sub channels can be switched to 2 ohm. What are the best fronts and boxed sub out there for about £500? I've a MY00 UK turbo, with a Sony MD head unit (2 pre-outs), and I listen mainly to club trance (ie no chart sh!te ). Bass-wise, I don't want boomy bass! Much prefer tight thumpy bass. Any suggestions? Or is it a trip to Halfords and try out whatever they've got on their car-park...

 

What sort of sub are you thinking of, and are you in a saloon or wagon?

On the overall balance of things, you probably want a 12 as a good compromise between punch and low bass... For punch, a small sealed box. For more output, a slightly bigger ported box, tuned to 30Hz or thereabouts.

I'd be tempted to splash out on the fronts and sorta economise on the box - maybe 300 quid for front speakers? Or if you're more interested in feeling the music, split it 50:50.

Let us know on the sort of subs you've heard and like, and we may work something out for you

 

Good work fella, thanks for the reply.

My car's a saloon. I've currently got a 10" Infinity sub that came in a tube, about 9 years old... it's now in a sealed box I attempted to build myself. As I'm sure you can imagine, it's seen better days! It coughs and splutters, and hits the stoppers on anything remotely low. It's had some fair old abuse over the years! But, it's served me well.

I agree with you on the 12". I think 10" is OK, but struggles a bit. And I think 15" would be over the top for what I want it for (plus my amp's probably not good enough). Problem is, I've only ever had the sub I've currently got, so have no idea on what's about, and what sounds good. Doing a bit of shopping around on the 'Net, I spotted this . What do you think? Is it sufficient for the sort of music I listen to, and the modest power of my amp? The price is definitely keen. That would leave me the best part of £400 to spend on fronts, which, as you quite rightly say, is the main part worth splashing out on.

Regards,

Ade.

 

Haven't heard it, sorry, but I used to have a pair of Infinity 12" subs designed for a ported box (KCS 120BR was the model number IIRC) and liked the sound.

There are lots of subs around, and lots of choice, but if you've had infinity before then I can't see you going far wrong. I did like mine, although the game has moved on since then.

For 100 quid, I'd be tempted to give it a whirl. After all, if you don't like it you should be able to get a fair whack of your money back if you sell it on, or alternatively you can return any product within 7 days (minimum legal entitlement) if you buy mail order under the Remote selling act of whenever.

That leaves you with a shedload for the fronts

You absolutely, definitely need to hear speakers in a car before shelling out that much. Have a wander over to talkaudio.co.uk/vbb and see when the next get-together is, as that'll give you an audition.

The amp that you've got is a good 'un. I wouldn't consider changing it, unless you really want to get more output in which case add a dedicated amp for the sub.

Cheers,
nick.

 

used to have one of those, loved it.

But I did bridge the 4 channels to try to run the fronts and the quality plummeted. I really wouldn't advise it if mine was anything to go by.

with regard to punchy bass, the best I ever achieved was from 4 JBL 8GTs (not GTis) they were in a line in a sealed box and nothing else has come close to them.

Paper cones is the key to tight bass, you need fast response with good stiffness. a nomex type cone (focal) can do that for you.

Obviously 4 8s is prohibitively expensive.

with regard to the sub, I would also not recommend running 2 ohms and bridging it too. The amp will hit thermal cut out very quickly.

It really isnt a high current amp.

I would consider finding something called a petras hyperthrow or hypercast. They a re a paper coned sub and can be bought in twin 2 or 8 ohm voice coils. They have massive excursion and hit really hard.

In your position, I would definietly spend the most on the fronts and make sure you are happy with them in the configuration you want to use. That way you may find you could have 4 channels spare for the subs, in which case you would either need an external active crossover (as I had) or to use deidcated outputs from your headunit which I think is the norm these days.

 

Thanks for the replies guys. I think the main problem is trying to find the fine line between "reasonably priced passable quality" and "expensive quality". I don't plan on entering any sound-offs, just want to enjoy me tunes again! If I have to ditch the Denon, then so be it. It's lasted well up to now, and has never packed up on me (apart from occasional thermal cuts). But if I can get away with it running a better sub than the one I've got now (not hard) and some decent fronts, I'll be happy.

Adam, I think I tried bridging for the fronts ages ago as well, and wasn't too impressed with the results. But then I did have crap power and ground leads, and not much better speaker cables. Which probably didn't help!

I've ordered that Infinity sub/box, so we'll see what that's like. As you say Nick, I've got 7 days to assess it. Adam, I'd never heard of a petras hyperthrow, but I've just done a Google on it. There's not an awful lot of info available...!

The next question is, is it worth spending £400 on fronts, if the signal is being amped by a 9 year old amp...? Is there a "reasonable" pair of fronts out there, that ain't gonna tempt me to upgrade everything?!

Decisions, decisions

 

Do some research and get yourself a shortlist is the best advice I could give on that.

I've heard and like DLS, Dyn Audio, some Rainbow stuff and CDTAudio (which is what I still run). I'd also consider Crystal given people's rave reviews of it VFM-wise.

Others will have their own favourite brands, music is pretty personal so there's no "best" speaker. Well, unless you want to chuck 2 grand at the new Genesis setup, which is probably somewhere near ultimate but again won't be to everyone's tastes, and hell, probably not mine either

Cheers,
Nick.

 

veritas 8 inch compression drivers, they are my favourite. but £1000.

focal budget range will always suit me. Still have the nomex cones which is important.

They are fairly sensitive so are less amp specific.

aside from that, some paper coned MB quarts (if they still make them) would suit me fine.

petras are mainly american market. they are cheap, but very very hard hitting and work in tiny boxes. They are about the most powerful paper coned speakers I have seen which as I said has always been the crucial factor for me when aiming for tight bass.

Many funky materials have since become the norm, and the original paper has pretty much lost its hold on the market. A shame in my book.

 

The DLS PS6 beasties are looking promising at the moment, shallow mounting depth, reasonable price, good reviews, etc. But there's no rush, so I'll keep reviewing. There are a couple of reasonable car stereo outlets in my area, so I'll probably have a drive about at the weekend. As you say, I need to listen to a few, even if only on the wall. Let's face it, if they sound sh!te on the wall, there's not much hope in the car!

Are nomex and kevlar similar in cone construction? That's probably a stupid question, but you know what I mean...!

[Edited by The_Judge - 12/3/2003 5:43:38 PM]

 

Those Denon amps are superb - Denon knew a thing or two about car audio but never seemed to grab much of the market.

I had a Denon 10 inch sub - sounded pretty awful in the box supplied by the dealer. In the end I contacted denon and they faxed me back their reference designs for boxes matched to the driver - One happy saturday with a jigsaw later and it sounded awesome...

I ran with the Denon sub for 8 years, briefly had a JL 15" with double wound voice call, but went back to the denon as it sounded more controlled than the JL...

So whats my advice - Once you have chosen a driver, see if the manufacturer has a reference design available and then build it as acurately as you can.

 

At the time I bought the amp, it was the only MOSFET 6 channel reasonably powerful one for the price. That was back in the day when I had a Fiesta Popular Plus, with an MDF parcel shelf, Pioneer 6x9s, Infinity Kappa fronts, "the more speakers you have, the better" attitude, using bits of carpet wedged in panels to act as sound deadening... Hey, we all have to start somewhere!

Obviously, I've no need for a 6 channel amp now. But I'm loathed to replace it just because I don't need 2 of the channels. As Adam said, bridging the front/rear channels doesn't really work very well. So speakers that don't need massive amounts of power seem to be the order of the day, leaving 2 channels to relax and put their feet up.

I'm not sure about the sub. Is there an arguement that 2 subs being driven by 2 50w rms channels, would be better than 1 sub being driven by 1 bridged 100w rms channel...?

 

yes there is. watts don't equal volume.

there is the efficiency of the speaker the thd value of the amp, the efficiency of the enclosure at the frequencies where the power is quoted.

plus the fact that bridging will not give you double the power, its a rough guide.

2 speakers at 50 is far better than 1 at 100, unless you are trying to compare 4 ohm stereo to 2 ohm bridged, both across two speakers.

Either way, as I said, why not use the headunits active crossover and use 4 channels for bass and 2 channels for fronts?

when faced with the same problem some time ago, I ended up buying a phoenix gold 2 channel.

after experimenting with different set ups, it was clear that the most powerful amplification witht he best quality was far better served on the front speakers as the bass was far less amplifier responsive.

 

Makes sense. The Infinity box arrived this morning, and I've got tomorrow off (beer bus tonight!), so I'll see what it's like. I could always get another.

You mention using 4 channels for bass Adam. Do you also mean to get 4 subs? Isn't that going to be a bit OTT...? Boot space, weight, etc. Although, what about the Genesis 6x9s that I've seen mentioned on here before? Are these them? Or would I get away with 1 (maybe 2 ) enclosures, and remove the rear speakers for porting?

Last question (for now!). What about Dynamat? Would the Extreme be sufficient where the front speakers are mounted? Or would more be required? And would the Dynashield spray be sufficient for the boot (and probably for the rest of the front doors)? Or would the Trunk Kit be worth it? Let's face it, the whole car could be done, but I can't be arsed with that...! So what's adequate?

 

An update for you. Somehow dragged myself out of bed Friday and set up the Infinity box. I tell you what, for 100 notes, really impressed. The box is a work of art, although heavy. The bass isn't as tight as I'd like, but as I said, for 100 quid, no complaints. And compared to what it replaced, no comparison. I removed just the left rear speaker for porting, leaving the right for rear fill, which works really well. It's powered by 2 bridged 50w channels, but I'm sure it could handle far more than my amp's capable of throwing at it (300w rated on spec).

Just need to sort the fronts now. Might have to wait until January though, as the credit card's had quite a battering this month, and it isn't even Christmas yet!