Luke

So the Americans are supprised that they are not getting the support they want.Watched some American on TV this morning saying that he couls not understand the fact that last year the whole world was with them and now they are not.But Like all things American....... They will start something that they cant handle.

Well hard luck. Get over it. It wasnt that bad.Learn from it.

CrisPDuk

I just hope that when the start this war, which they will, the sh*t rains on them and not those actually in the area, like us

AnDy_PaNdY

All the more reason to get in there and hit them soon.
I suggest you download the government dossier and digest it's contents.

MooseRacer

Get over it, it wasnt that bad?


WTF are u on about?

Nimbus

Andy P,

Where can you get it from?

Dave T-S

Here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl...ll_dossier.stm

It's pretty grim reading...

[Edited by Dave T-S - 9/24/2002 1:53:49 PM]

cookiemonster

yes, it's grim reading, but the weapons part of it applies just as well to the UK: i've no doubt that the UK has possesion of illegal weapons (weapons we've signed treaties to say we dont have), and acts to ensure that nobodies know about them, and has full military plans as to when and how they would be used.

The historical part is no different to the stories in dozens of african, south american and asian countries.

I guess my feeling is that I could have written this myself...

Got to say I was fairly ambivilent about this before, but it really is beginning to sound like a pile of crap - notice that israel keeps bombing the crap out people under its control and defying UN mandates, while the US abstain.

AnDy_PaNdY

I found last nights Panorama programme to be fascinating and a bit worrying. Listening to the radio today, there were a lot of neutrals who are now positive for some sort of military action after seeing that programme.
I have no doubt that we have these weapons and probably even worse ones but the fact of the matter is we don't use them on our subjects and neighbours at the drop of a hat.

dsmith

America abstaining from UN resolutions weakens its position. They may not care what the UN syas but to maintain the moral high ground they so desparately crave they need to be seen to saty within international law.

They simply cannot ignore the UN on Israel, whilst demanding the rest of the world support them on Iraq. - imho

Deano

IWatkins

Well, that was an interesting read.

To be honest, I'm with others here. You could change the words "Iraq" and "Saddam" for many other countries and leaders.

I especially like the part about "We have some really good facts, but we can't tell you where we got those facts from, because they are secret, oh and so are the facts"

Me ? Yes, I'm convinced that Iraq does pose a real threat. But I don't think they pose a real threat to us nor the Americans.

I would have to agree to sending in UN inspectors again, but it'll no doubt be the same old cat and mouse game.

As for regime changing, I honestly don't think America (or anyone else) has the right, no matter how bad the leader is (or supposedly is).

Tough one.

Cheers

Ian

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

Can you please explain what you mean by this please Luke?

Chip

Can only assume he means the WTC event last Sep.
Dont know why he says it wasnt that bad though. Was horrific to anyone who saw it especially as most of these ppl were not involved in the military or government.

Pity the place wasnt full of world leaders at the time. Might have been left witrh a more peaceful world if it had.

As for the US being squeeky clean.Dont think so. I watched footage of the young girl Kim Phuk the other day after the law abiding US dropped napalm on a vietnam village. This was horrific to see.

I assume Saddam has these chemicals but then so do we and the US etc so looks like were just as bad as each other to me.

And anyway who has funded and supplied arms to these countries for years?


Chip.

Luke

"Well hard luck. Get over it. It wasnt that bad.Learn from it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------"
Sorry no net access until now

What I ment was ..Does America think it was the worst thing ever to happen??? Get real. Look what they did in Nam and japan.

Come on lets get real. Compared to many other events it was nothing.
GB is using it as an excuse... .
I do not believe all the media puke.

ariel

Luke you are a dope, either that or a very crass man.

Luke

Ariel

Why???

Dave P

Whilst I don't think Luke was particularly tactful with his reply I do have to say I agree with him to a degree.

I don't remember the US rushing to our defence on the countless times the IRA hit major cities and events in the UK... Harrods, The City, Docklands, London Bridge, The Manchester shopping centre (sorry forget its name) etc. etc. etc., no in fact many of their citizens supported the IRA, some very publicly a certain Micky Rourke springs to mind.

And in the latest piece of hypcratic propaganda, I read in the Sun this morning an article about a chemical attack by Iraq on it's own people with supporting pictures of dead children. Then you check the date..... 1988 at a time when the US were pumping shed loads of dollars in to help Iraq beat Iran during the war. Nothing like feeding a mans ego.

Dave

MooseRacer

Luke - What I ment was ..Does America think it was the worst thing ever to happen??? Get real. Look what they did in Nam and japan.

Urm well yes it was the worst terrorist attrocity in history. I lost a relation in the attacks on the WTC - should I 'get over it' too?

chiark

America, in my opinion, ought to look at its own image.

Al Gore was on the box yesterday morning asking what happened to all that goodwill the US had post 9/11. He noted that it had been squandered by a gung-ho action.

The US are still the only country in the world to have used nuclear weapons in anger...

How can you change a regime when the populous is used to a certain way of things being done? Will it work? I'm not sure...

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Agree with Chiark about the US image.
One of the saddest societies in the world seeks to CONSTANTLY interfere, and tell others how to run their lives or their countries. Then they hold themselves up as perfect.
Look at their gun laws. Look at the number of poor. Look at their record on race relations. Look at their murder records.
And this is the Land of the free? there's no wonder other countries hate them, and while I CANNOT condone acts like 9/11, I can see why they did it.
The US is despicable, and really needs to get it's own house in order before poking their noses into any more of the world's "problems", and dragging B.Liar, and the rest of this poor country, in after them.[img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
And, NO, I'm not a terrorist, a sympathiser, or an Iraqi, just a very disillusioned Briton.

Chip

Something else to ponder over.

Would Tony Blair still want to invade Iraq if the US wasnt interested. I dont think so.

Chip.

Luke

Mooseracer

Of course I feel for all that lost a friend /relative etc.So "ours" are called soldiers,and theirs are called "terrorists".........When they kill innocent people they are all the same.
America/UK have been happy to sell chemical weapons etc ...WHO the hell did they think they would be used on?????

We caused this ****

hotsam

No offense, but I don't think anyone from the UK should be using historical examples to show how bad another country is. History is full of examples of British brutality towards other people (Indians, Native Americans, Aborigines, Africans, French (well, that's ok..)). If you look, you'll find crap on anybody.

Luke

So what made "Hiroshima" legal??

Lets all get real.we must accept a lot of the blame

MooseRacer

Luke, I would be interested to read your views on what, if anything, should be done about Iraq & Saddam Hussein.

This is, as far as I am aware, a seperate issue from the terrorist attacks last year. I don't know of any proven link with Saddam Hussein.

Personally I feel America is treading the wrong side of a very fine line. So they don't like Saddam's regime - that is no mandate to go in and change it. There are plenty in the world who don't like the USA yet that is no excuse to go after Bush with a machine gun.

I would like to see no military action unless/until he blocks the weapons inspectors once again. Action with the backing of the UN is as close to 'legal' as you can get IMHO.

On the other hand, is it right to do nothing and wait until Iraq invades another country again, or launches missiles attacks, or persecutes its own people? Is inaction the answer?

America's foreign policy failings are well known (Vietnam etc etc) but if it werent for their help in WW2, and yes Hiroshima, then we would be living in a very different world today. Thousands were sadly killed or injured in that attack - but who knows how many would have died if they had not dropped nuclear bombs and ended the war? Sometimes you have to fight aggression with aggression Luke, it is the only way to secure long term peace - the big issue is when to do it.

DavidRB

Pearl Harbour.

TRIGGER

There are too many issues here. I agree with Luke in many ways - yes 9/11 was horrific but is it 3000 times more horrific than one person dying at the hands of terrorists ? Of course not. Americans have been guilty of huge atrocities - why were they even in Vietnam ? And the residual effect of Nagasaki and Hiroshima are far more horrific than any terrorist act. Go there and see - then u might understand.
I had clients who died in India last year when 30,000 people were killed in an Earthquake. Not a man made event but does that make it less sad when there is such suffering ?

The link with this and Iraq is the fact that the Americans are using 9/11 to scare people into letting them attack Iraq. Totally out of order imho.

Finally I feel we have no right to impose our will on other countries and lifestyles just because it doesnt conform with our western ideals. We say the Middle East countries are not civilised because you have to be a democracy to be civilised - what rubbish - they dont have much crime and especially not sexual crimes - so who is more civilised ? Iraq is no more threat than they have been for the last 25 years.

father_jack

Oh dear.............

boomer

TRIGGER got me thinking...

didn't America (or rather an American company) kill rather a lot of people in India in Bhopal in 1984??? The Union Carbide plant exploded, releasing a deadly cocktail of poison gas made up of methyl isocyanante, hydrogen cyanide, monomethyl amine, carbon monoxide and up to 20 other chemicals!

More people died there than on 9/11, many more are still suffering, but did India threaten to nuke America???

The US says that Iraq is making chemicals that might be used as WMD, but the "legitimate" factory in Bhopal did a lot more damage!!

Has America paid appropriate compensation to India and the affected citizens?

Basically, a lot of **** has happened over time, but people have got to learn from history, and thus make things better for the future.

I don't think that Dubya knows much history

mb