Many Humbug Returns

Is ABS thought to be beneficial in race circumastances?

f1 dont have it but is that the rules or are there racing reasons that it is better not to have ABS

WRC cars dont have it either, and if I remember correctly neither do the 22b or sti tyre r versions.

So ultimately is ABS worse for braking performance in extreme use ie racing?

Crush

The FIA see it as a driver aid, so they banned it. Rightly so in my opinion.

If you're a good driver, then you shouldn't need it

P1Fanatic

ABS can actually increase braking distances on loose slippery surfaces like ics/snow, gravel, sand etc. ABS is mostly of use on grippy tarmac and in wet conditions. The main benefit is being able to steer the car under extreme braking, which is an advantage for the average driver.

Simon.

BOB.T

The German DTM cars used it...

I hate it personally.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Oh I forgot everybody on Scoobynet is an expert that can out brake a car with abs only with the soles of their racing boots, get real in 99.9 % of real world situations ABS is better than no ABS and on the track unless you are relying on your brakes too much (or your tyres are crap) it shouldnt cut in, I have two cars, one with and one without and I know that if I am carrying my kids which one I would rely on, I have done cadence braking and practised it but ABS is still better most of the time, notwithstanding the Snow/Ice thing.

clarence

They had ABS in F1 back in 1993. Top teams have either some or all of the following: ABS, TC, Active Suspension, 4WS, etc. Williams have developed a CVT gearbox but it was never allowed to race.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Williams have developed a CVT gearbox but it was never allowed to race.

Fair enough, dont want pensioners in F1 !

Sprint Chief

Note there is a big difference between the relatively crude ABS fitted to road cars and the significantly more costly ABS fitted to race cars such as the DTM cars and what used to be fitted to F1 cars.

The ABS fitted to road cars is quite cheap, but acts aggressively by pulsing a valve which releases brake pressure. The kit fitted to race cars, much like aircraft systems, acts in a proportional way that puts less of a shock through the tyres and stops the car more efficiently.

The ABS fitted to road cars will stop the car quicker than the average driver, but a good driver will usually be quite capable of stopping a similarly car without ABS in a similar distance. A very good driver would be able to stop quicker. However, when driving along on public roads, when you aren't expecting to have to pull emergency manoeuvres, even the best driver can be caught out, whereas the electronics will always be ready (unless you "fix" your broken ABS system by removing the bulb from the dashboard, of course)

The ABS fitted to race cars is also set nearer the limit, and would not rescue all situations, which is a trade off between risking relying on the driver to gather up problems, and shaving the last few hundredths off the lap time (or perhaps giving a better overtaking opportunity)

londonpaul

the one time I've really needed it it saved my backside. I was going down the fastlane (at a reasonable speed *ehem* commesurate with road conditions) when I came upon a BMW X5 actually parked stationary round a light corner in the road, couldn't believe it, took me a few seconds to comprehend that it was parked, no room in the middle lane, just wellied the brake, car scrubbed off speed beautifully and allowed me to steer round said BMW on the gravel on the verge without coming off the brake at approx 20 mph. Had I been expecting it, I might have been able to do it without ABS, but unlike a track you come across unexpected **** on a road and ABS in these circumstances is a godsend.

BOB.T

I didn't say I could stop quicker than an ABS equipped car, just that I hate ABS, just a personal choice

Dracoro

The problem with ABS is not the ABS itself but how people see it. Many people mistakenly think ABS slows you down quicker than non ABS. This is ONLY the case if you lose grip and the wheels start to lock and then, depending on the surface (in some conditions abs will be worse remember) the ABS will help stop the car quicker. It's how good the disks and pads and calipers etc. are that make it stop quickly. I'd rather have a better set of brakes without abs than a poorer set with abs (if you get my meaning ).

When the wheels lock up, ABS has a small effect in stopping the car (it'll be at a very low speed and the car will almost be stopped anyway) but has a GREAT effect in enabling steering while slamming on the brakes - this can be useful on the road.

Basically ABS is useful in an emergency, this doesn't happen very often but it's useful to have (like airbags).

Now I went on a trackday and the brakes were VERY much used but I don't think I remember the ABS coming on once. The surface is too good and there's very little debris to cause loss of grip. To have abs on a racecar would therefore only really add weight not forgetting that racecar drivers can use their skills when loss of grip occurs and abs puts that into the hands of the car, not the driver to a certain extent (i.e. driver aids which F1 has illustrated to make racing boring and taking the driver element away).

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

"ABS fitted to road cars will stop the car quicker than the average driver, but a good driver will usually be quite capable of stopping a similarly car without ABS in a similar distance"

Most drivers are average or worse (including me), imagine a school run mummy trying to stop 2.5 tonnes of 4.6 litre X5 when things go wrong cos shes on the phone !

Even expert drivers lose concentration as well.

BOB.T

If you took like for like cars, on tarmac, the ABS equiped car would only have an advantage when the non ABS car skids, if there's adequate grip both cars will pull up in the same time. ABS does not offer any more brake force than an ordinary set up.

If you were to turn the tables and go onto ice or snow, possibly even gravel the non ABS car would have the advantage as the ABS car would have the pedal firmly embedded into the bulkhead, the pump doing overtime and the brakes doing chuff all!!

I think ABS does have a place in our cars as do airbags, I just feel people should be made more aware of what they are and how they work. I get the impression that some people will jump in a car thinking they have all these gadgets round them that there's no way they'll ever crash but even if they do they'll just walk away.

I think we're more than likely waaaay off topic now

Luke

Can ABS be adjusted to come a bit later?????

Many Humbug Returns

i agree with Bob T on this
i have had hairy moments where ABS has innappropriately cut in on poor road surfaces with loose stones ion top and I nealry back ended people iin front due to no retardation. If they'd locked up it'd have stopped ok.

BOB.T

No you can't adjust ABS

Well, you could in theory but it would mean reprogramming the computer, ie chipping it but then you may aswell not have it!

clarence

Audis with quattro drivetrain in the mid-80's have a ABS switch in the centre console. The owner's manual recommend switching ABS off under certain conditions..............

Dizzy

they didn't have it because of diff problems.
Modern ABS is a BIG help on anything other than snowy and loose surfaces (i.e. Rallying).

[Edited by Dizzy - 4/7/2003 3:50:50 PM]