Diesel

What a huge indictment of the state of society in modern USA this film is – and they SO think that they are the Daddys…

Thankfully Michael Moore was quite restrained in this one, allowing the viewer to draw his own conclusion, and that often with subtle editing techniques and juxtaposition (God I sound like Barry Norman, and why not? )

The bottom line example was that Canada has 60 gun murders a year and the US over 10,000. Gun ownership is at a similar level in both countries. Yanks barricade themselves in at night, whilst Canadians leasve the key in the door... The logic behind these statistics is the meaning of the film, so I wont ‘spoil’ it… (Funny to say that about a doco…)

I think everyone needs to see it to form a more balanced world view, as I think the Yanks are out of control and getting even more right wing by the day whilst the ordinary American public remain ignorant and live increasingly in fear… Proving this are dumb statements like ‘you’re either with us or against us’ – ohh and what about the 200 odd other viewpoints between that black and white Mr Bush? That must be the most absurd and diplomatically naïve statement by a president in a long time. It just shows how scared and how far up their own ***** they are. But then I’m very ‘Old Europe’ aren’t I (another dumb ignorant statement clawing at a put down cos people don’t kow tow to them any more – they have seen the signs….).

D

rogp

Excellent film, that was largely ignored by the UK media when released. I was one of only 3 people in the cinema when I went to see it.

Very thought provoking.

RussP

Superb film - not one i'd have bothered watching had i not been on a long haul flight tho. The guy next to me more or less demanded i watch it!

Frightening, enlightening and thought provoking. The annoying thing was Marilyn Manson actually came over very intelligently and made sense in what he said.

Jees i hate it when that happens!

hail-hail

Loved the film, I thought Marilyn Mansons comment on the Columbine tradgey was the most sensible thing I have ever heard.

Went out and bought the book Stupid White Men on the strength of the film, a great read, really makes you think........

Holy Ghost

a minor observation:

the US murder rate (inc. gun homicides) averages at 16,000 per year and, according to UK home office stats, has been on a downward trend since 1995 when it stood at 21,000 plus. that's against a population of 270m. that's one murder per 16,900 people.

russia's homicide rate stands at 31,000 every year against a population of 145m. that's one murder per 4,700 people.

then there's south africa - 24,000 homicides a year against a population of 44m. that's one murder per 1,800 people.

for perspective, the UK averages 950 murders per year against a population of 60m. that's one murder per 63,000 people.

the maths is self-evident.

however, of course, who'd write a book called "Stupid Slav Men" or heaven forefend, "Stupid Black Men?".

just a thought, but might this be a case of the emperor having no clothes?





[Edited by Holy Ghost - 6/18/2003 1:18:56 PM]

Holy Ghost

some interesting sites that give the flip-side of michael moore -

www.moorewatch.com

www.moorelies.com

www.revoketheoscar.com

www.spinsanity.org

plus, the cover story in today's T2 section in the times is very revealing.

read it here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7-716842,00.html

boomer

Just ordered it from play.com.

I also bought Stupid White Men the other day, but haven't had time to read it yet. However, even the first few pages of the introduction are impressive

mb

Holy Ghost

read the T2 cover story from yesterday's times boomer. it casts several quite damning doubts about his journalistic veracity, ie believe what this guy says with a serious pinch of salt.

workshy_fopp

True - but the fact remains that Charlton Heston is an utter ****

Holy Ghost

why is he a ****? the right to bear arms is a constitutional right in the US. and if you read the T2 piece, you will see how moore changed the timings and fudged footage (badly) to make heston look like a raving loony.

that is *not* documentary making (for which he won the oscar with BFC): that is propogandising in support of a personal political agenda. and that's fine - but accept it for what it is. and in moore's case, anyone who's followed his work and read his polemics will know that he is a highly politicised left winger. incisive satire based on fair representation. er, i think not.

he's often amusing, good value, compelling and always unpredictable but IMO he is also an hysterical fruitloop.

(i draw your attention back to the homicide figures for russia and south africa above to highlight of his lack of perspective.)

i hope moore has read the piece: it makes for very uncomfortable reading and it's already zooming around the web.

workshy_fopp

He's a **** because he deliberately took his NRA roadshow to Columbine and some other place I forget, straight after the shootings. Very insensitive.
Aside from the issue whether Moore is playing fair or not, for me, the message of the film was that it's the climate of fear (exacerbated by the likes of Charlton) which leads to gun carrying and gun use.

hail-hail

Robin Willams got it right about his fellow Americans:

"We have the right to bear arms, in fact, we also have the right to arm bears"

Or words to that effect.

Diesel

"OUT OF MY COLD DEAD HANDS" - Dunno what that is in Russian or Afrikaans, but then they dont proclaim to be the dogs' bollox of the world do they?... They openly admit the problems, in a very un Charlton Hestony kind of way... He and his mob are blindly married to the problem. He was also clearly a racist **** too - couldnt even sit on his nauseous, dirty bigotry for the camera; hope that tremor becomes worse and with a bit of Alzheimers too when cleaning his gun No that I condone guns of course That might even teach em irony in the bargain

ProperCharlie

I think it would be a bit inappropriate to compare gun crime in the US with South Africa - I mean SA is practically anarchy in parts, it is also pretty much Third World economically, whereas the US is supposed to be the "Leader of the Free World" Yeah, right.

[Edited by ProperCharlie - 19/06/2003 15:04:28]

Holy Ghost

according to the times, heston's "from my cold dead hands" speech was made at the NRA annual convention in denver, shortly after columbine. he also visited littleton, colorado. workshy, are you sure he went to columbine after the shootings?

anyhow, who really cares about heston? he's clearly off his chump and to be honest, the NRA should know better and at the very least, demonstrate some sensitivity, humility and understanding.

as to the homicide rate in SA: it's merely an example of how bad it is elsewhere. (and SA is hardly in a state of anarchy). my point being, the US is not the panacea for all things bad as moore continually likes to paint.

however, the thing really worth noting is that christopher hitchens, a respected liberal left wing, anti-bush, anti-gun, anti-death penalty broadcaster and writer on both sides of the atlantic says he is "appalled" by the prestige that moore enjoys in europe. for me, that says it all about moore's lack of integrity - to be japped so damningly by one of his "own."

my point is that moore is no john pilger. he is no christopher hitchens. nor is he a bob woodward or carl bernstein. broadcasters and journalists with a ton of integrity between them.

if you want the dark underbelly of the US, these are the people to read or watch. for me, moore just doesn't cut it: he's just an entertaining hack-activist with a blunt talent for demogoguery and sleight of hand. and to be honest, no better than the shock-jocks he belittles.

believe about him what you will, but don't do it eyes wide shut. there is a substantial body of critical media opinion out there that needs to be appreciated as it has an important role in placing moore in a truer, more even context.

The Zohan

I found it a thought provoking film, particularly liked the Marilin Manson interview and found him an interesting well balanced individual, i would rather he was Presidient then George Doubya Bush.

Holy Ghost

did you seen manson on woss a couple of weeks ago? clarity and common sense: seems to have his head screwed on.

EvilBevel

Diesel... as a follow up... do a research on the Carlyle Group. Could be a "journalist thing" but that really blew my ears right off

It's either a very sick joke, or Mr. Bush senior was having a meeting with a certain Bin Laden family on the morning of 11/9. Erm, in the US that is. Actually, not far from the Pentagon.

I sincerely hope it's just a sick joke ?

Nice to see John Major's name pop up again as well BTW LOL :very very evil grin:

Don't get me wrong, I love "the US" if only for Married With Children (All in the Family for the younguns ) but something is just not right there. Can't put my finger on it mind.

I hope someone can set me right, and send this Carlyle thing to Disneyland. Pretty please ?

Theo

PS: the Columbine dude's name comes up with this investigation as well, ho hum.

ProperCharlie

HG what do you base this on? do you live there? do you have armed guards around your house? I do neither but from what I have read it is a pretty scary place.

ScoobyWon't

Isn't this the one where he took two victims of the Columbine shootings to K-Mart, who sold the bullets used, to get a refund. While the bullets were still inside them!

Imagine that - you're the manager and it was your store who sold these potentially killer items and then these two people who may have died walk in. Would you be able to look them in the eye?

Forget his journalistic credibilities for one second. Isn't the point of the film simply "Guns needlesly kill thousands - shouldn't we do something about it?"

Holy Ghost

propercharlie

you really are picking nits here: i picked two substantial nations whose murder rate is between four and eight times that of the US. one on our eastern european doorstep and one that purports to be the most advanced and democratised nation in africa.

simply as an on-the-fly comparison with the US, a nation that moore thinks is beyond redemption and corrupt to its very core. i am simply pointing out that there are two nations of substance and importance, on two separate continents, that have it much, much worse.

my impression is that SA is not a choatic nation on the brink of anarchy. it has extensive, transitional and deep-seated tribal problems. it has a ridiculously, stupidly high crime rate per capita. if you're white, who knows, you may/do need armed security around the compound where you live. but the government is not about to topple by coup d'etat; the nation is not about to fall into the abyss shared by the likes of zim, rwanda and the belgian congo. it is a fledgling democracy - on a continent were democracy is rare if not not unique - and is one that is suffering very severe growing pains.

(calling bruce warne - you know how it is; please correct me if i'm wrong and talking total and utter **** about your country).

indeed you might say it is a little like the US in and around 1776: fighting clear of a recent colonial/autocratic past; managing a minority white immigrant population and at a temporary loss as to how to deal effectively with its indigenous people.

i'd have used china as an example in a developed society, but sadly, as a civil dictatorship, they don't publish their crime figures.

the thread here is about moore and BFC: now rather than sniping from the sidelines, do you have anything constructive to add as to the man's integrity (or lack of it?)

ProperCharlie

Ok HG, I accept your point; a little.

Regarding Moore: I'm sure he does edit and report selectively to try and make his give his opinions the maximum shock value. All reports to this to a greater or lesser extent. In the end of the day, I think Moore does have a valid argument, whether or not he is a paragon of integrity.

Moore is obviously a target for a lot of people as he sticks his neck out. Many people would love him to be discredited. I don't have to believe everything Moore tells me, but I think he is doing a worthwhile job.

The Zohan

HG
Yes, i saw Manson on Woss and could not agree more with your comments.

In fact i deliberatly watched Manson on Woss because it was a day or so after i watched Bowling for Columbine and i wanted to find out a little more about him.

[Edited by Paul Habgood - 20/06/2003 08:04:48]

Diesel

I reckon HG will have fewer issues with him if he gets a nice haircut and munches a few fewer Doritos My mum was also tutting!