Anyone been to a Spiritualist?
29 January 2004, 01:15 PM
#1
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Has anyone ever been to a Spiritualist?
Reason is, i was talking to my sis in law and she went to see one the other day. The first thing that struck me was that the lady didn't charge my sis in law for the "reading" (or whatever it's called).
Now, not only did she pick up on her own family members but also mine. I felt a little nervous when she started telling me things about my family that she could of never known and indeed what i had forgotten about until she brought them up.
Now my Dad is a believer of "once you're gone, you're gone" and would never believe any such nonsence but the Spiritualist told my sis in law a few things that only my Dad would know about and now its got him thinking.
Incidentally, i'm talking about specific incidents in life and not generalisation.
I'd be interested in some views or indeed some first hand experience of "readings" that you may have
Cheers
Pete
Reason is, i was talking to my sis in law and she went to see one the other day. The first thing that struck me was that the lady didn't charge my sis in law for the "reading" (or whatever it's called).
Now, not only did she pick up on her own family members but also mine. I felt a little nervous when she started telling me things about my family that she could of never known and indeed what i had forgotten about until she brought them up.
Now my Dad is a believer of "once you're gone, you're gone" and would never believe any such nonsence but the Spiritualist told my sis in law a few things that only my Dad would know about and now its got him thinking.
Incidentally, i'm talking about specific incidents in life and not generalisation.
I'd be interested in some views or indeed some first hand experience of "readings" that you may have
Cheers
Pete
29 January 2004, 01:41 PM
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My mother is a firm believer in it , she has had a few readings after some very very bad things happened to her in the past. I am also a believer , not an absolute nut bar , i like to read up on it etc.. makes for very interesting reading.
Only way you'll know is experiencing it yourself.
brett
Only way you'll know is experiencing it yourself.
brett
29 January 2004, 02:24 PM
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Spot on ajm - I would love to see a recording of these "spot on" predictions that people keep talking about. Not seen one yet, always far more misses than hits, but the people involved seem to gloss over them and only remember the vague statements that they can latch on to and associate with something in their lives. It is easy to belive and be amazed if you go with the intention of believing and let yourself get sucked in.
It is usually something like:
Spiritualist: "I see a great deal of pain, have you lost somebody close to you?"
Sucker:"Not that I can recall"
Spiritualist: "It could be some time back"
Sucker: "Well my Uncle Bob died 20 years ago"
Spiritualist: "Yes, that sounds right, it is definately a man, he had been ill before he dies hadn't he?" (Well most people are)
Sucker: "Yes he had been suffering with x"
And so on, the person being read is being asked vague questions and searches to find an association, when they do, or think they do, they tend to give out more information which the Spiritualist can then use to get more information. It is a technique called cold reading and is similar to interviewing, you use open questions (can't be answered yes or no) to get information and closed questions to confirm details (can only be answered yes or no, unless you are a politicial)
Try going for a reading and answer only with "Yes" or "No" and see how acurate it is then. Count the guesses and see how many are wrong compared to how many are right (and watch out for the multiple guesses in one where they don't wait for an answer but try and read your expression to see if they are getting warm). Try and look at it scientifically rather than emotionally which is what usualy happens.
Some people get some degree of comfort in thinking that they are talking to some dead relative or that they are being offered some explanation for a tragedy in their life, but more often than not it has a negative effect on somebosy who is already under emotional stress.
If you want to read more about these charlatons there are plenty of books out there or have a look at here
It is usually something like:
Spiritualist: "I see a great deal of pain, have you lost somebody close to you?"
Sucker:"Not that I can recall"
Spiritualist: "It could be some time back"
Sucker: "Well my Uncle Bob died 20 years ago"
Spiritualist: "Yes, that sounds right, it is definately a man, he had been ill before he dies hadn't he?" (Well most people are)
Sucker: "Yes he had been suffering with x"
And so on, the person being read is being asked vague questions and searches to find an association, when they do, or think they do, they tend to give out more information which the Spiritualist can then use to get more information. It is a technique called cold reading and is similar to interviewing, you use open questions (can't be answered yes or no) to get information and closed questions to confirm details (can only be answered yes or no, unless you are a politicial)
Try going for a reading and answer only with "Yes" or "No" and see how acurate it is then. Count the guesses and see how many are wrong compared to how many are right (and watch out for the multiple guesses in one where they don't wait for an answer but try and read your expression to see if they are getting warm). Try and look at it scientifically rather than emotionally which is what usualy happens.
Some people get some degree of comfort in thinking that they are talking to some dead relative or that they are being offered some explanation for a tragedy in their life, but more often than not it has a negative effect on somebosy who is already under emotional stress.
If you want to read more about these charlatons there are plenty of books out there or have a look at here
29 January 2004, 02:25 PM
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ajm
I honestly felt the same as you mate but after seeing my Dads face when told a few things that the spiritualist had said was very strange.
My Dad refused to believe any of this "mumbo jumbo" but now he is thinking twice and to be honest so am i.
Another strange thing is that my sis in law wasn't even going to see this Woman. On the night, a friend of the girl she knows dropped out. My sis in law was invited by her friend to go along which, she did. This woman had no prior knowledge of her and she is adamant that she never gave away anything more than confirmations of names etc.........besides my sis in law was saying things to my Dad that she would have had no information on ie things and incidents that had happened when he was younger, some of these things were so specific and detailed that even my Dad couldn't explain it away
I honestly felt the same as you mate but after seeing my Dads face when told a few things that the spiritualist had said was very strange.
My Dad refused to believe any of this "mumbo jumbo" but now he is thinking twice and to be honest so am i.
Another strange thing is that my sis in law wasn't even going to see this Woman. On the night, a friend of the girl she knows dropped out. My sis in law was invited by her friend to go along which, she did. This woman had no prior knowledge of her and she is adamant that she never gave away anything more than confirmations of names etc.........besides my sis in law was saying things to my Dad that she would have had no information on ie things and incidents that had happened when he was younger, some of these things were so specific and detailed that even my Dad couldn't explain it away
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29 January 2004, 02:42 PM
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Olly
Last week i would have put the same post up as you!
I dont really want to go into detail but i can say that my sis in law never went with any agenda and only went for something to do.
My sis in law said that as soon as she went in, sat down then intruduced herself this woman started without any questions.
One item was:
"theres an elderley woman here saying hello, she says her name is Hetty"
"i dont know a hetty"
"she says she knows you and she is pleased to see you and wonders how you are coping with no more home made apple pies"
"Apple pies! the only person to make me apple pies was my husbands grandmother"
1. Nobody called my Nan Hetty, her name was Ethel and it was only my Granddad and her friends that called her this. In fact my sis in law thought that my nans name was Esther!(she only knew her for a short while before passing)
2. Apple pies! thats pretty significant as when we were younger my nan used to make each couple a home made apple pie to take home after visiting her. Everybody loved them and she was renouned for it.
3. my sis in law swears blind that this woman just started to spout this information with no encouragement or coaxing.
This is just one instance out of a good dozen things she had said and in which no way could of been extracted from my sis in law.
Last week i would have put the same post up as you!
I dont really want to go into detail but i can say that my sis in law never went with any agenda and only went for something to do.
My sis in law said that as soon as she went in, sat down then intruduced herself this woman started without any questions.
One item was:
"theres an elderley woman here saying hello, she says her name is Hetty"
"i dont know a hetty"
"she says she knows you and she is pleased to see you and wonders how you are coping with no more home made apple pies"
"Apple pies! the only person to make me apple pies was my husbands grandmother"
1. Nobody called my Nan Hetty, her name was Ethel and it was only my Granddad and her friends that called her this. In fact my sis in law thought that my nans name was Esther!(she only knew her for a short while before passing)
2. Apple pies! thats pretty significant as when we were younger my nan used to make each couple a home made apple pie to take home after visiting her. Everybody loved them and she was renouned for it.
3. my sis in law swears blind that this woman just started to spout this information with no encouragement or coaxing.
This is just one instance out of a good dozen things she had said and in which no way could of been extracted from my sis in law.
29 January 2004, 02:53 PM
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Nobody called my Nan Hetty
So I also don't have a gran called hetty that made apples pies, gosh it was my gran she was talking about not yours!
Now if she had said:
"I am your husbands Granmother Ethel and I used to make apple pies for all my grandkids when I knew they were coming over. Little johnny used to love cream on his and fred preferred ice cream."
Then I would almost be starting to get convinced - the fact she can't even get her own name right is just laughable. You have all ignored that fact and tried to make something of the other tit bit and come to the conclusion that it must have been your gran as she is the one you associate with apple pies.
29 January 2004, 03:21 PM
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Olly
Her name was Ethel but only a few select people called her Hetty. My sis in law didn't know this, this is why she was confused with the name!
I do concede the apple pie fact as you do have a valid point there.
As i said there are quite a few things, this was just one of them. She even said that my nan said " I'm here with my son Peter, tell Tony he's doing fine". My Dad's name is Tony and his brother was Peter who passed on a few years ago. Again my sis in law is adamant that she never passed any of that information on, especially names.
Her name was Ethel but only a few select people called her Hetty. My sis in law didn't know this, this is why she was confused with the name!
I do concede the apple pie fact as you do have a valid point there.
As i said there are quite a few things, this was just one of them. She even said that my nan said " I'm here with my son Peter, tell Tony he's doing fine". My Dad's name is Tony and his brother was Peter who passed on a few years ago. Again my sis in law is adamant that she never passed any of that information on, especially names.
29 January 2004, 03:26 PM
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I've been to see a few spiritualists and some are good, some are cr@p and blatently clutching at straws. I went to this amazing one , one time and she got things right that would have been impossible to guess or assume.
29 January 2004, 03:30 PM
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Buzzer
By all means belive what you want to and please don't take my comments as any kind of personal attack on you. You have probably gathered I have rather strong views on this subject and all the evidence I have seen points me to the conclusion that all of these people are just cold readers and have no phsycic ability whatsoever.
Read some transcripts of readings, the people who had the reading done say similar things about not giving details away and being told things that the reader could not have possibly have known. When you read the transcripts it becomes obvious that this was not the case, the person being read has grasped on to something somewhere along the line and ended up "helping" the reader.
There is also another technique known as warm reading, which is where somebody associated with the reader casually chats to the person being read before the reading making out they want to get in touch with somebody etc etc and asking what they are there for and so gaining useful information or the odd name that can then be passed on to the reader. This technique is even more effective as the the reader then has some definate hits the can throw in early on to get the person onside.
Here are a couple of transcripts from well known "professional" spiritualists in the US. here and here you will have to scroll through the page a bit to fidn them as there is other stuff on the pages.
Also have a look on sites like http://skepdic.com/ or http://jacobandrews.com/
By all means belive what you want to and please don't take my comments as any kind of personal attack on you. You have probably gathered I have rather strong views on this subject and all the evidence I have seen points me to the conclusion that all of these people are just cold readers and have no phsycic ability whatsoever.
Read some transcripts of readings, the people who had the reading done say similar things about not giving details away and being told things that the reader could not have possibly have known. When you read the transcripts it becomes obvious that this was not the case, the person being read has grasped on to something somewhere along the line and ended up "helping" the reader.
There is also another technique known as warm reading, which is where somebody associated with the reader casually chats to the person being read before the reading making out they want to get in touch with somebody etc etc and asking what they are there for and so gaining useful information or the odd name that can then be passed on to the reader. This technique is even more effective as the the reader then has some definate hits the can throw in early on to get the person onside.
Here are a couple of transcripts from well known "professional" spiritualists in the US. here and here you will have to scroll through the page a bit to fidn them as there is other stuff on the pages.
Also have a look on sites like http://skepdic.com/ or http://jacobandrews.com/
29 January 2004, 03:38 PM
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weapon69 - fair enough, entitled to your opinion.
Just wonder what seems more likely, somebody making educated guesses, asking leading questions and giving the appearance they can contact the dead (remember exactly the same techniques are used by magicians in many of their tricks to "read minds" and so, just they do a more convincing job of it and don't try to pretend it is supernatural)
Or that this person really can contact the dead?
Why do they so often ask for your name at the start? Surely they should already know this?
Notice they things are not spot on accurate, they are vague and close and similar and possibilities, in part due it being a best guess and also so they can come out with the cods wallop that the spiritual world is a hazy thing and I can't get a detailed pictures, read that as you are not giving me enough clues to make a good guess yet.
Just wonder what seems more likely, somebody making educated guesses, asking leading questions and giving the appearance they can contact the dead (remember exactly the same techniques are used by magicians in many of their tricks to "read minds" and so, just they do a more convincing job of it and don't try to pretend it is supernatural)
Or that this person really can contact the dead?
Why do they so often ask for your name at the start? Surely they should already know this?
Notice they things are not spot on accurate, they are vague and close and similar and possibilities, in part due it being a best guess and also so they can come out with the cods wallop that the spiritual world is a hazy thing and I can't get a detailed pictures, read that as you are not giving me enough clues to make a good guess yet.
29 January 2004, 03:42 PM
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I went to this amazing one , one time and she got things right that would have been impossible to guess or assume
1) My full name
2) My address
3) My telephone number
4) My date of birth
5) My Place of birth
6) My mother's maiden name
OK you can get a fair bit of that from a search on the net, but not all. If she gets even half of that right I will be amazed!
You won't be able to, why? Because she will get upset about being tested, "if you don't belive then it is not down to her to convince you"
In reality, as I am not there and you don't know the answers she has no way of finding them out so cannot suceed.
29 January 2004, 03:47 PM
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Olly
No offence taken mate
I've been inundated with this spiritualist stuff over the past week and i need views, experiences etc. I value everyones comments and i'm glad you've put up a few links for constructive argument which, i believe are very valid
Just a case of trawling through everything to come to a reasonable explanation...............but admit this wont be easy
No offence taken mate
I've been inundated with this spiritualist stuff over the past week and i need views, experiences etc. I value everyones comments and i'm glad you've put up a few links for constructive argument which, i believe are very validJust a case of trawling through everything to come to a reasonable explanation...............but admit this wont be easy
29 January 2004, 03:50 PM
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its obvious you have no personal experience of this kind of thing.
If however you want to pay for me to go to this marvellous spiritualist so that I may be converted to a beliver then I am more than happy to take you up on it. I would like it to be video taped however just so that everybody can see the outcome!
29 January 2004, 03:57 PM
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Buzzer - good for you.
I appreciate that you have some thinking to do on the subject, and whatever your conclusion is at least you have taken the time to investigate, research and think it through rationally.
Sadly too many people experience things, can't work out how it is done and so jump to a supernatural conclusion before they have exhausted all the real world possibilities first.
Imagine if the Police approach to crime was "Well it wasn't him so it must have been the Goblins that did it"
I appreciate that you have some thinking to do on the subject, and whatever your conclusion is at least you have taken the time to investigate, research and think it through rationally.
Sadly too many people experience things, can't work out how it is done and so jump to a supernatural conclusion before they have exhausted all the real world possibilities first.
Imagine if the Police approach to crime was "Well it wasn't him so it must have been the Goblins that did it"
29 January 2004, 04:17 PM
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weapon69 if a friend of yours said "I have heard of this great deal, this Nigerian exile wants to transfer $10 Million in to my account for a couple of months and will give me 10% for doing so" what would you say to them:
1) It's a con don't go near it
2) That's sounds like a really good idea can I be involved too?
With Spiritualist I belive it is rather more damaging than this. They claim to be in touch with people's dead relatives, which is always going to be an emotional subject. They then go on to give them messages from them and so on. Now while some while gain some comfort from that, others do not. As things are so vague people can end up reading anything they like in to a situation and when a berieved person feels guilt (which is usually unjustified but not uncommon) they can end up thinking that they have offended the relative or worse yet in suicide cases, that they were responsible for them killing themselves. This is unecessary mental anguish on somebody who is already suffering the loss of a loved one.
Personally I think Spiritualists, Physcics etc should be licenced. To get the licence they have to pass a simple double blind scientific test. If this were the case I can guarentee there would be no practicing spiritualists or phycics.
1) It's a con don't go near it
2) That's sounds like a really good idea can I be involved too?
With Spiritualist I belive it is rather more damaging than this. They claim to be in touch with people's dead relatives, which is always going to be an emotional subject. They then go on to give them messages from them and so on. Now while some while gain some comfort from that, others do not. As things are so vague people can end up reading anything they like in to a situation and when a berieved person feels guilt (which is usually unjustified but not uncommon) they can end up thinking that they have offended the relative or worse yet in suicide cases, that they were responsible for them killing themselves. This is unecessary mental anguish on somebody who is already suffering the loss of a loved one.
Personally I think Spiritualists, Physcics etc should be licenced. To get the licence they have to pass a simple double blind scientific test. If this were the case I can guarentee there would be no practicing spiritualists or phycics.
29 January 2004, 05:02 PM
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OllyK you are inaccurate in your definition of spiritualist! They are not there just to contact dead relatives! They speak alot about things that have happened to you as a person. They are trying to give you some sort of proof that there is something bigger than you and what the eye can see.
I've met people who are more/as much against it as you seem to be. Things have happened to since change their minds.
Why don't you open your mind? Or you too scared?
I've met people who are more/as much against it as you seem to be. Things have happened to since change their minds.
Why don't you open your mind? Or you too scared?
29 January 2004, 05:15 PM
#24
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Followed this stuff closely in the past. It is the art of 'cold reading'. In fact, anyone can be a good 'psychic' once you know the tricks.
Research and challenges...James Randi Educational Foundation...Many have been exposed, including that **** Uri Geller!
Research and challenges...James Randi Educational Foundation...Many have been exposed, including that **** Uri Geller!
29 January 2004, 05:25 PM
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Weapon69
Like i said, i had a simplistic black and white attitude to this which was probably brought about by my Dad being so "Anti" Spiritualist and indeed preached the "when your dead your dead" attitude which i believed.
I think my Dads "about face" has really shocked me as he was a staunch disbeliever but now he's questioned it and now coz my Dads questioned it, i have to aswell as it was he who instilled this attitude.
I have a very open mind about these things and on face value this does look like an amasing encounter by my sis in law, the things raised make you wonder if it is indeed true..................hence the question on SN.
Like i said, i had a simplistic black and white attitude to this which was probably brought about by my Dad being so "Anti" Spiritualist and indeed preached the "when your dead your dead" attitude which i believed.
I think my Dads "about face" has really shocked me as he was a staunch disbeliever but now he's questioned it and now coz my Dads questioned it, i have to aswell as it was he who instilled this attitude.
I have a very open mind about these things and on face value this does look like an amasing encounter by my sis in law, the things raised make you wonder if it is indeed true..................hence the question on SN.
29 January 2004, 05:29 PM
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Why don't you open your mind? Or you too scared?
There is a chance, a vey small chance that you are actually right and there may really is somebody out there who genuinely has this "power" to contact spirits or look in to your soul or whatever you want to call it. If and when they surface they will have a profound life changing affect on everybody in the world. Until that person arrives I will continue to belive that they are all just con artists.
I just wonder if we did see your spiritualist and they failed miserably would you change your mind?
29 January 2004, 05:29 PM
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Just read this line from OllyK's post:
From what you have written, it seems obvious to me that you have also researched this area? (On the nail's head btw)
And in reply to Weapon69:
As Carl Saagan replied to this: Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out!
Personally I think Spiritualists, Physcics etc should be licenced. To get the licence they have to pass a simple double blind scientific test. If this were the case I can guarentee there would be no practicing spiritualists or phycics.
And in reply to Weapon69:
Why don't you open your mind?
29 January 2004, 05:39 PM
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Have you never read/seen on the TV about the psychics who help in murder investigations? How are they con artists? Unless you think they did the murdering lol
29 January 2004, 06:14 PM
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Weapon69,
I don't know if that is aimed at me. But I have read and heard about the 1000's of psychics who get it completely wrong and totally destroy the hearts of the families who are given false hope.
The one's who do get it right - and I haven't really seen one yet, so please provide me with some evidence if you can, I would put down to chance unless they can prove their ability under scientific conditions involving a double blind test. There are plenty of UK universities where they are interested in such research: Goldsmiths and Aberdeen spring to mind.
Still zilch evidence I'm afraid.
I don't know if that is aimed at me. But I have read and heard about the 1000's of psychics who get it completely wrong and totally destroy the hearts of the families who are given false hope.
The one's who do get it right - and I haven't really seen one yet, so please provide me with some evidence if you can, I would put down to chance unless they can prove their ability under scientific conditions involving a double blind test. There are plenty of UK universities where they are interested in such research: Goldsmiths and Aberdeen spring to mind.
Still zilch evidence I'm afraid.
29 January 2004, 07:28 PM
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Have you never read/seen on the TV about the psychics who help in murder investigations? How are they con artists? Unless you think they did the murdering lol
There have however been countless cases where the Psycics have said the missing person is dead and then they turned up alive and well and also the opposite as well.
Do you really think this helps the famillies? They are grieving and vunerable and cling on to any hope and these people come and feed off them trying to get themseleves in the lime light. They are sick and twisted and should be charged with wasting Police time when they are found to be wrong.