David Lock

We have an 8 year old Golden Retriever who has had a chronic skin condition for several years. Tried everything and spent a fortune on vets, tests and special diets all to not much avail. I have done some amateur research and think her condition and behaviour may be due to Hypothyroidism - the first thing I discovered that middle aged Retrievers are top of the list as prime candidates for this condition. I am pretty fed up that at least four specialists failed to mention this (thyroid malfunction) as a possible cause for this condition after carefully examining her and taking a detailed history. A blood test could have been taken to confirm or eliminate the possibility and if my theory is right this would have saved me hundreds of pounds and, more importantly, given my dog a better quality of life with the right treatment. My question is simple: Is Hypothyroidism fairly common and should this have been recognised by a competent vet as a possible cause of her problems? Thank you. David

OllyK

That is of course assuming that is the problem. I would have hoped the vets would have considered this and have probably discounted it for a number of reasons.

Self diagnosis is potentially dangerous, plenty of people start to read medical books without the proper training and suddenly that mole they have is skin cancer.

By all means raise the question with your vet - but I wouldn't jump to conclusions

David Lock

Olly, I agree and I am not jumping to conclusions but I know it was never mentioned by any of the vets as a possibility. I am merely asking the question at this stage and I have also asked my vet. For all I know it may be extremely rare which is why I am asking. I also have someone in the household with medical (but non-vet) qualifications so we have some limited knowledge. Cheers, David.

OllyK

Have a look here

Prone to hip dysplasia and congenital eye defects. OFA and CERF certification are important from both parents. Parents should also be checked for Von Willebrand's disease and heart problems. Skin allergies are common in Golden Retrievers and require immediate veterinary attention.

Also if it is a pedigree have a chat with the breeder. Also look at the kennel club web site

David Lock

Thanks for the link Olly. I am in touch with the breeder who is excellent and keeps in regular touch with owners of the Retrievers she has bred. In fact when we bought our puppy she gave us the third degree to see if we would be suitable owners! She has been known to walk into a property and demand "her" dog back if she suspects it is not being looked after properly! If only all breeders were the same. David

OllyK

Very true, too many shonky ones out there - glad to say the breeder of our pup was excellent (Rough Collie)

andypugh2000

May or not be of any help but my 8 year old springer spaniel has a severe skin condition consisting of hair loss and sore patches, had her on steroids for 3 weeks which helped, she is now on piriton which seems to have cracked the problem and she seems on the mend at long last, bear in mind you can buy piriton at any chemist.

andy

V45DSM

Borrow the Queens stick.

David Lock

V45DSM

Please pi$$ off out of this thread. Thanks, DL

mj

...very true sentiment, I had a couple of lumps flare up on my neck a while ago, I did a doctor.com, and went to bed thinking I had some kind of cancer . Went to the doctors the next day and some was prescibed some AB's - the lumps went down in two days -cysts apparently.

Is the beast in question a dog or bitch? - a neighbour had a dog alsatian with hideous skin, according to the vet it was due to having it's conkers removed( maybe some hormone defficiency ?), the dog lived to a ripe old age as a scabby old nearly hairless mutt


..hope its not as bad as you think.

cheers,

mike

ajm

and

Potentially dangerous, maybe. Potentially lifesaving, yes. Self MIS-diagnosis is dangerous.

What treatments have been tried already? Antihistamine and steroids, specifically corticosteroids, are commonly used to treat the symptoms of allergic reaction and inflammation. Presumably if you have tried these treatments and they havn't worked then it is only reasonable to suspect some kind of hormonal imbalance rather than an allergy. He may look over his horn-rimmed spectacles at you (lets face it, what professional likes being helped by a layman?) but don't be afraid to challenge your vet's decisions - if he has discounted a thyroid problem for a reason then he shouldn't have any difficulty explaining his thought processes to you. At the end of the day you just want the best for the animal.

David Lock

No conkers - she's a non-spayed bitch. We've been through all the allergy stuff, shaved patch on side and skin allergy tests, special diets and more. The research we did threw up articles by respected authorities on possible problems associated with thyroid malfunction and so many of these were EXACTLY what our Golden had been going through. I take the point about self-diagnosis but she can't talk yet and we know our dog better than anybody so I think we are justified in investigating on her behalf! She means a lot to us. Thanks for the input guys. David

fast bloke

Bro-in-law is a vet and I spent about 10 years 'helping him out'

Hypothyroidism is quite common in many dogs - we would see a case every couple of weeks from about 400 animals treated.

Skin complaints wouldn't immediately point to any sort of thyriod problem - (While many dogs with thyroid problems suffer from skin complaints, a much much smaller ratio of dogs with skin complaints suffer from thyroid problems.) They would usually be associated with allergy either from an external source (bedding, pollen, something you clean the house with,) allergy to diet (usually red meat/tinned meat/rich diet) or hormone related problem due to being neutered/not neutered. Normal course of action would be to give a light dose of prednisolone and AB if any infection, combined with a switch to bland diet of chicken, fish and boiled rice. If this doesn't show improvement after two weeks we would usually run a full blood picture. This would include ABG, CBC, electrolyte panel, glucose test, total serum protein and thyroid test - total cost would be about £60.00 and would at least give some sort of pointer to the problem area. A decreased level of thyroid hormones at this stage would usually prompt a TSH test (Prednisolone will lower the levels of thyroid hormones in the blood, so either a TSH test or T4 test would give more accurate, but more expensive indication)

A good vet wouldn't necessarily spot hypothyroidism, but they should be able to work out that the current treatment wasn't working at which point a blood test would be normal to help with more accurate diagnosis.

I would ask your vet what tests have been carried out and what the results are, and exactly what he thinks the results mean. You may have to spend £££££££'s on long term treatment, but you should expect to have an accurate diagnosis and see some improvement fairly quickly.

Just to add - just because it hasn't been cured doesn't mean your vet isn't good - some dogs can have skin problems as a result of 4 or 5 different problems - the cure for one of these problems can exacerbate one of the others, so occasionally there is no cure or hope of improvement, just endless cycles of some improvement followed by some deterioration followed by change of treatment. (Cushings disease and hypothyroidism together can cause a bit of misery for dogs, owners and vets - most of the major symptoms are similar and most of the blood test results are similar. We saw these diseases combines three times in 10 years - On each occasion the vet went for standard treatment, blood test and diagnosis of hypothyroidism. The treatment for hypothyroidism had virtually no effect, so a more in-depth set of tests pointed the finger at Cushings disease. The most effective treatment for Cushings is Lysodrene, which is a kind of chemotherapy. It costs a fortune and there is a chance of overdose, killing the dog. All the owners opted to have the treatment - With no effect... By this point in the first case the vet was thinking of a large dose of humble pie and a refund. He decided on one last blood test before admiting defeat - which still pointed to hypothyroidism - He resumed thyroxine treatment and the dog made a major recovery in about 3 weeks. At least in the other two cases he had the benefit of hindsight and was able to point out the possibility before the lysodrene treatment.)

Anyway - Thats why I decided that being a financial advisor looked promising

What are the symptoms your dog is showing? Usual symptoms are weight gain, lethargy, lack of alertness, hair loss, dandruff, strange behaviour (agressive, grumpy or anxious.)

mj

So what explanation did the vet offer then?

David Lock

Fast Bloke - I really appreciate your input. I will print off and discuss with meme-sahib. Symptoms have been hair loss, dry and itchy skin, dandruff, red sores, ear infections and change to nervous/anxious behaviour and change in expression to what I understand is known as "tragic" look - what I would call sad hang-dog appearance. David.

David Lock

Hi Mike, we are still discussing with vet. He's a nice guy BTW. The thing is that he and the specialist he referred us to all thought in allergy terms and never once mentioned thyroid as a POSSIBLE cause. My question is why not. I am not saying it IS thyroid related but I think this should have been questioned. Thanks again for input. David

fast bloke

David - make sure you tell him I told you I was a financial advisor - He will trust me that way .... see if he needs a pension or an endowment as well

I would imagine that he or one of the specialists has already checked thyroid function based on the symptoms. The sores and ear infections don't really tie in. Hair loss due to hypothyroidism is caused by hair growing much slower than normal - the baldy bits are not abnormal hair loss but slow regrowth. (I am sure your vacumn cleaner knows how quickly a GR can lose hair.) As above, the sores and ear infections might be unrelated, and most sick dogs have a hang dog look - mainly because they feel like **** and people keep taking them to the vet to get sharp things stuck in them.

Go and talk to your vet, but I would also try giving him about 20 mls of Mazola cooking oil twice a day (You can get it in Sainsburys). It won't cure anything but can often help relieve itching and flakey/dry skin symptoms.

David Lock

Thanks FB, Actually I was going to tell him you were a politician to give him that real cosy comfort factor (or you were in a senior position at the beeb?)

As I say we are in discussion with vet but I don't think thyroid function has ever been questioned or tested. I note your comments re ear infections but following comes from one of the articles I read (American Vet Society or something like that)

Quote
"The most common signs of low thyroid function in dogs include loss or thinning of the fur, dull hair coat, excess shedding or scaling, weight gain, reduced activity and reduced ability to tolerate the cold. The hair loss occurs primarily over the body, sparing the head and legs, and is usually not accompanied by itching or redness of the skin. Some dogs will have thickening of the skin and increased skin pigment, especially in areas of friction, such as the armpit (axilla). Hypothyroid dogs often have ear infections and show ear pain, redness, and odor. Hypothyroid dogs may also develop skin infections which may be itchy and result in sores on the body. The accumulation of substances called mucopolysaccharides can cause the muscles of the face to droop giving the dog a facial expression that is sometimes called “tragic".
End of quote.

Will keep you posted. David

fast bloke

mucopolysaccharides? I can't even say that - glad I decided against being a vet (OK - Glad the vet schools turned me down for being to stoopid)


I don't read much vet type stuff - it is more down to initially passing on information and then picking it up - As Meatloaf said 'I remember everything... as if it happened only yesterday' which can be a PITA sometimes, but is good for trivial pursuit.

Ask him if the dog has had a thyroid function test - Don't tell him you looked on the internet - he will probably try to put you to sleep

he may never have mentioned it as a possibility as a full blood picture is usually about 200 lines of 'blood contents' accompanied by numbers. Usually about 190 of these will be OK, ruling out 2.3 billion possibilities.


All you can do at this stage is ask the question - If he hasn't done full bloods after years of treatment with no improvement then it might be an idea to look for someone with MRCVS on their business card

fast bloke

p.s. - Do the sores appear by themselves or is he constantly scratching - If he does scratch a lot then he will introduce infection causing the sores as a symptom of itchyness. Also - scratching ears can cause initial ear infections, but on a longer term can lead to aural haematoma, where the arteries in the ear tissue burst and make the ear swell up. If he does scratch his ears, ask the vet for a buster collar (one of those plastic cone things..) It will save you a load of grief in the long run.


I must admit - based on what you have described, hypothyroidism is one thing that should be ruled out. I assume you have already tried the bland diet, the Hills diet, the Aitkins diet.... erm ... maybe not. I am also assuming that you have tried long term piriton if they talked about allergy. Prob with piriton is that it gives symptomatic relief - IE - It isn't a cure, so using it for a week or two will have little result.



Anyway - ask him about the blood test carried out, the results and his understanding of the results (unless he is using antiquated(sp) equipment the machine/lab actually give their translation of the results and the recommended treatment)

I would still imagine that after years of treatment the problem will not be straightforward.

Keep us posted I might be able to tell the bro-in-law something useful

Redkop

I had a GSD who throughout her life was 'itchy'. After comprehensive tests, she was found to have an allergy to her own skin cells.

I found that 'Virbac Dermacool' together with low dosage Prednisilone made her life a lot more bearable.

DERMACOOL relieves itching and inflammation without leaving a greasy film. Cooling, mild anaesthetic effect helps reduce self trauma. Antiseptic and antibacterial agents help prevent infection and aid healing and aids in drying and cleansing. Effective for acute moist dermatitis (hot spots) and surface pyoderma.
Acive ingredients: witch hazel, propylene glycol, glycerine, lactic acid, chloroxylenol, menthol

fast bloke

RK - It also ***** dogs with hypothyroidism

David Lock

Thanks Redkop and FB, appreciate your interest and further comments.

FB, I will send you an off-line mail tomorrow if that is OK. There is actually a bit more to the story which may be of interest to you and bro-in-law. Having a late night Bells & soda after which I will tell Fern (my Goldie) that we are investigating on her behalf and then retire for the evening! DL



[Edited by David Lock - 1/30/2004 11:36:59 PM]