mj

I noticed a few people involved in lifting on PC's thread....hope you can shed some light..

I seem to be getting told different stories with regard to Loler craneage regulations, contract lifts, and AP's.

I have always been under the impression that in the last 3 or so years, ALL lifting operations are to be on a contract lift basis - in the most we have hired cranes on this basis, however on very straightforward/open lifts we just hire and sling&signal ourselves as we have the CITB tickets for this.

I have just spoken to a crane rep/AP from a large hire company that tells me I do NOT have to hire a crane as a contract lift, as long as I submit myself as an AP, designate or be a lift supervisor etc, and produce to the hirer MS&RA 48 hrs prior to the lift.

kind of echo'd her by something I found on the net:

Now the question is - can I appoint myself legally as an AP?

I have been involved with craneage for 11 years - we install diesel generators ( they don't climb off the lorry themselves ) for the last 4 years I have been writing MS&RA for lifting ops, and for the last 3 I have held the slingers ticket.


I am looking to go on an AP course anyway, my question is can I do it now with my experience?

cheers,

Mike.

SirFozzalot

Hi mj,

I am a qualified AP for a mobile crane hire company and technically you shouldn't appoint yourself as an AP unless you have completed and passed the 3 day AP course or can prove satisfactorily to the HSE (in the case of inspection or accident/incident) that you are competent to be appointed as the AP. However, as with most regulations it comes down to how you interprete the legislation and how you can prove you are competent.

BS7121: part 1:1989 (safe use of cranes) states that "The Appointed Person should have adequate training and experience to enable these duties to be carried out competently"

BS7121: part 3:2000 goes into a little bit more detail as to what the AP is responsible for.

At present the qualification of "Appointed Person" isn't a CITB/CTA (now replaced with CPCS) catergory, only CITB approved, but from April '04 the Appointed Person qualification will be recognised and will be added to your CPCS card (CTA/CITB) along with slinger/signaller etc. For it to be added to your card you will have to complete the relevant course and obtain a certificate of training.
Hope this helps mate, if you need any more info let me know....and if you need a crane

mj

Cheers Sir Fozz....


YHPM

ProperCharlie

IMO "competence" is one of those vague terms that is hard to define. Some tasks have rigidly defined meanings for competence. e.g. to drive a car unaccompanied you must pass a driving test. that is the test for competence for that activity. with regard to the crane or lift controller type situation, on one hand it is nice to be able to point to a certificate from a training organisation and say "hey look - i'm competent" but OTOH if you can supply other evidence of your competence, be it experience, on the job training or whatever, the person questioning would have to stick their neck out to say that they did not accept that. some organisations may have a defined criteria - e.g you will only be considered competent in this activity once you have completed a course using this sylabus, and been mentored for x no, of hours or whatever.

clear as mud, eh?

hades

All boils down to Health And Safety At Work Act, which is where LOLER and many other regs stem from. Absolutely jam packed full of phrases like "as far as reasonably practicable", it's a bit woolly where reasonably practicable ends. Whilst following an HSE Approved Code Of Practice(s) associated with the work you're doing is a good way of demonstrating you've done reaonably practicable, you can't actually be prosecuted for not following the ACOP - as long as you can demonstrate (proove) that you have taken equivalent or better measures.

Generally, you have to take the line that if there is an accident, the HSE, lawyers etc will ask the question. If you have justification that you really believe will stand up in criminal court as having taken all reasonable steps that an average person could have foreseen, then fine. Health and Safety is pretty unique in British criminal law in that the burden of proof is fairly well on you to prove your innocence rather than someone to prove your guilt.

Under common (civil) law, you also need to demonstrate that you have fulfilled your "duty of care" to both other workers, general public, i.e. pretty much everybody that could be effected and want to sue you!

Working (running largish jobs) in a fairly tightly regulated and potentially hazardous industry, there's one other bit of advice that I'd give that I can't understand why more people don't. Try talking to your local HSE and ask their opinion. From our experience, they're quite human and approachable if you haven't just caused an accident, and will give advice. They'd rather help prevent accidents than prosecute people for causing them. Goes without saying it's wiser to ask them before you do something rather than when you're already doing it.

I know that's a bit generic Health and Safety rather than specific craneage, but hope it helps?

mj

Thanks for your input here and PM's chaps, much appreciated.


I think for peace of mind I'll take the course soon - my local Ainscough do the 3 day course for £525 - with the price of Contract lifts nowadays it should pay for itself in 1 job

cheers,

Mike.