Ray_li

A few weeks ago my mate started work as a door to door salesman (coming from factory jobs) and started to call himself a professional.

I told me its a great job and was told after 6 months he may get a promotion to manager and after a year could me making £75k.

So when is someone classed as a professional?

Ray

BTW he lasted 5 days on the job and still didnt get paid.

Steve vRS

When you have a profession i.e. Doctor, Engineer, Teacher, Lawyer etc.

I see it as when you have a qualification ontop of a normal degree.

Steve

PS A proper Engineer is chartered. All the other 'engineers' are usually technicians.

Chip

Like most of them then

Chip.

TopBanana

A professional is someone who performs a 'learned' occupation - architect, doctor, vet, lawyer etc.

Mr.Cookie

so is a chef a professional

must go buy a capri and chest wig

Si

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Not strictly true. I've been an electronic engineer for the last seven years and have only come across a tiny handful of people who are Chartered Engineers. I've yet to see any benefit in being one, unless you're dead keen on titles and having letters after your name. Nobody (other than at the rather old-fashioned company where I did my student sponsorship) has ever expressed even the slightest interest in whether I'm a member of the IEE or a Chartered Engineer. I appreciate that this isn't necessarily the same in other countries, but in the UK it's a non-issue.

I do get annoyed at the number of people who do misuse the term 'Engineer', though. The bloke who comes round to fix a washing machine or install a satellite dish is a technician, not an engineer - and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. "Phone not working, sir? We'll send an engineer!" NOOO!!, don't send an engineer, there's nothing wrong with the fundamental design of the phone. I just have a dodgy connection somewhere. Send me a technician!

Rant over... for now

Andy

JayPSC

or 'sales engineer' & 'customer service engineer' they seem to add it to everything nowdays

Ray_li

I think Andy is right.
Everybody are calling themself Engineers these days.
So am I a professional?
Mr Raymond S.W Li Bsc (Hons) Industrial Product Design. Job title Design Engineer.

Whos got the longest title?

lightning101

A woman who stands on street corners is considered a Professional (Pro)

Jerome

LOL - couldn't agree more.

imlach

Agreed. Electronic Eng too and never been a member of the IEE. It's really the older boys that still pay their subs (or rather, the company do), but no professional benefit to it - a diary and a mag every year as far as I can see

So, for electronic & electrical engineers, seems a non-issue. However, perhaps different for civil engeering? My mate made a big thing of being chartered for that - perhaps some liability thing in construction? (he designed oil rig structures).

richie,7,RA,spec C

LITHOGRAPHIC PRINT TECHNOLOGIST
no letters after it, just 17 yrs of hard graft

MartinM

It (should) show that you have been party to a a recognised training scheme, have had suitable experience and responsibility for your level of competency etc etc...

It allows you to quote your occupation as a 'Chartered Engineer' (which sounds better than 'IT consultant' ) to insurance companies etc etc

The person most likely to notice is the postman, as all the post sent by your chartered institution are addressed complete with the letters after your name

It can help in sealing a job when the next man/woman does not have the qualification....

...but I do think that, as with university degrees, it's half-life is about 3-5 years, so when you've been one for 15 years or so, the only benefit is that your employer pays your subs, you get to keep the diary and the magazines are quite interesting sometimes as well....

Rgds
Martin
B.Sc, CEng, MIEE

...and I promise never to put these on SN again

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

100% with Andy, I'm a engineer by qualification (BEng Mechanics & Control Systems). When technicians or companies try boosting their job titles it only lessens the true meaning of what a true engineer is. How many times have I had to sift through recruitment agencies asking for "Engineers" when in reality they only need a kid who just quit college early.

To be CEng, (chartered) basically you have to pay a load of money to your institution (IEE, IMechE etc) to give you that status, and keep subscribing. I used to be a member of the IEE, but it's just a "club" where you get a few useless journals every month and in the end if the day, it is just another way to screw a few hundred quid off you every year. But it's fine if your company pays instead though

The term professional is far more open to interpretation, but I see it as this: It doesn't matter what fancy job title you have or what letters you have at the end of your name. I see it as a description of someone who is highly competent, experienced and capable of doing the task that you require them to do.

Next thing you'll know is that the "Drain Doctor" has a doctorate in plumbing

imlach

Certainly in our company (large American company - anagram of Genital Technologies), being chartered or not would probably have zero bearing on the selection process in reality.....

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Actually now I think about it, a company asking specifically for Chartered Engineers would make me want to run a mile anyway. It shows that they value the label, rather than considering candidates based on their skills and experience. Unless the rules have changed recently, the requirements for CEng status were an accredited degree plus some number of years' training or relevant industrial experience - and I have those anyway. Getting a CEng tag after my name would be a paperwork exercise, and I do enough of that at work!

Andy, BA MEng. No longer AMIEE.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

One thing a friend pointed out about going for a CEng is that if you qualified as a BSc (e.g Compter Science) You can get an engineering status even though you started life off with a science qualification, just by studying the required components (oh and paying the fees - of course).

MartinM

IMHO, whilst the second part is indeed true, the first part definitely isn't correct....

When I were a lad, you needed a certain level of academic qualification (at least 2nd class hons in a relevant subject IIRC, or relevant experience in lieu of), proposers and seconders from within the institution (yeh, old boy's club and all that), evidence of your own work/log books, awareness of the legal, financial and commercial aspects of your job and succesfully pass an interview board. Only then could you enjoy the pleasure of paying a load of money...

wacky.banana

So don't our binmen (Refuse Engineers) get a look in as pro's then?

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Yes, the description was a bit too generalised of what you actually need to do to qualify for CEng Still, nowadays if you don't qualify you just pay to do whatever course that will bring you to the required standard

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

I think Martin's right about the detailed requirements - although therein lies another problem. I don't know two MIEE's who could propose and second me, even if they wanted to. My notes are largely indecipherable (that being an essential difference between notes and technical documents meant for third party consumption!) and they're mostly the property of companies for whom I no longer work anyway. I start a new job (Senior Hardware Engineer with a satellite communications firm) in a few weeks' time, so all my notes, schematics and other evidence of my hard work become instantly unavailable. To take copies would be a breach of commercial confidentiality, so the IEE would be quite entitled to refuse membership on those grounds!

So, I have the academic qualifications, the skills and the experience, and some people believe I'm a competent enough engineer. Yet it would appear that I'm not in a position to be able to gain IEE membership and CEng status even if I wanted to.

What does that reveal about the value of the CEng tag?

Ray_li

ok folks. All p1ss taking a side. I was planning to do more studying as a designer and join the Chartered Society of Designers (CSD) or somthing along the lines (recommendations welcomed) but is it really worth it?
Iv only just started work after Uni and wish to increase my value.

Ray

Stueyb

In our place it seems every pleb is a "manager" of something, even if they only control the 'kin stationary cupboard. Me? Well Im just the network guy. But I guess our place is like so many in the fact that every wanabe wants "Manager" in theri title.

Also anyone notice no one mentioned MCSEs and "professional" lol we all know theyd be laughed at so hard everyone would need a cuppa and screen cleaner. Different for CNEs though, of course

Ray_li

Is it the title or the amount of money you take home at the end of the day?
I'll be happy to be normal Design Engineer but taking home the money.
When I see Managers I think "Do i really want that?"
The extra work and responsibilities is not for me at the age of 23. I just want to get my head down and do loads of designing and see products that I have designed on the market.
Maybe move into management when Im 30.

Ray

LG John

Saxo Boy BSc (hons) MRTPI - I'm a pro...........I think

imlach

Mr Tip? Hmm.....I'd love to be one of them

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Ray,

I don't think anyone's taking the p*ss - it's just worth considering the value of professional accreditation as compared to academic qualifications and experience. For example, I personally wouldn't attach any weight at all to a CEng, whereas I'd look quite closely at where someone did their degree.

What's your background, where have you studied and what kind of work are you looking to do? The title 'designer' doesn't give away too many clues.

Ray_li

Thanks Andy.

A little background for some help.
Studied Industrial Product Design At Coventry Uni
Was un-employed for over a year b4 I found a job designing speed cameras. After 6 months I found the job Im in now designing Architectural Hardware.
When I was looking for work after Uni I soon fond out 3 years at Uni was a bit of a waste as the experience was more important.
I would not recommend anyopne to go uni unless its a very specialised subject.

Im thinkin of doing more studying cu i think a normal degree means poo all these days. I must say it seems like everyone has a degree these days.

Ray

BMWhere?

IMHO theres a huge conspiricy in the UK to devalue the titles of Engineer and Technician. You make a bin person a "Refuse Technician" and then all the technicians start calling themselves Engineers, then the real Engineers are considered less.

Engineers are professionals, technicians are not!

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

So, from bad to worse, then? Hang your head in shame

What a degree does do, is help you get into your first relevant job. I found - much to my relief - that my first job as a junior electronic engineer didn't require a tenth of the stuff I'd learned on my degree course. In fact I learned a great deal more about being an engineer during my first six months on the job than I did in four years at Uni. You never stop learning.

The trouble is, anyone interviewing for junior positions only has your past academic record to go on. They know you have little or no industrial experience - which is OK - but what they need to know is how clever you are and how interested in the subject. Having a degree shows you were able to work at it for a few years. Where you did your degree gives an idea of the standard you were able to meet. Put yourself in the interviewer's position and ask yourself how you can demonstrate or prove your mental skills.

You're absolutely right that once you've been in a job for a while, the experience is much more important. The trouble is, it's a chicken and egg problem - how do you get the experience if you can't prove to anyone that you're worth hiring in the first place?

Forgive my ignorance but what's 'Architectural Hardware'?