tiggers

I debated whether to put this in the Sports forum or not, but decided it is a wider issue than just sport so in NSR it goes.

OK, following various exchanges on SN regarding the hooligan element of football and the trouble it brings I would like to engender some serious debate on the matter.

We wake up this morning to more scenes of violence from Portugal involving England fans and riot police. Then we here the following excuses trotted out:

- it's only a minority (like that makes it OK)
- it wasn't England fans it was British holidaymakers and it goes on all the time (like that REALLY makes it OK)
- the police were heavy handed (Yeah I'm sure they started it)
- they're not real fans (true maybe, but it's still happening)
- the fans were being goaded by other fans (again does that make it OK?)

Some of the interviews on the TV this morning were hilarious including some muppet asking some holidaymakers why it is always the British fans that do this - I literally felt the disturbance from those of us who are British, but not English

Anyway my questions are why does it always seem to be football that is the catalyst for this and why more often than not is it the English rather than the Germans, Spanish, French or even the Scots and the Welsh etc.

I can't really get my head around why football should attract this behaviour rather than other team sports. I know there have been various studies into the psychology of football hooliganism, but I have never had anyone satisfactorily explain why rugby, cricket etc. doesn't have the same problem. Is it simply that football is such a passion, the national game or has a much larger following than most other sports?

If this is the case why in the USA, which is not know for being a calm nation, is there not the same problem associated to American football or ice hockey or baseball? Their fans are as passionate as ours and their attendances are huge yet there is no trouble - why?

Is it simply that football attracts the wrong type of people through its image and now we have a Catch 22 situation? Is it simply that groups such as Combat 18 ally themselves to it as it is the most popular sport with young white males or is it something to do with our culture?

I have always thought that England is strange in that a lot of people go out for a night with the intention of getting drunk and maybe having a good time whereas nearly every other country seems to have the attitude that they will go out and have a good time and as a result they may end up getting drunk, but it is not their sole aim of an evening.

Having said that the Scots seem to enjoy a drink as much as the English, but their fans seem to get involved in little or no trouble.

As some of you will know I'm no football fan and it does sadden me that the whole of the English nation gets blighted through the actions of a small minority, but it would also be good to be able to understand why this keeps happening.

Discuss.

Regards,

tiggers.

ProperCharlie

IMO it's all a bit of a storm in a tea-cup. get a few hundred thousand football fans (of any nationality) together and give 'em loads of beer etc; there will be a few rumbles. it's hardly comparable to scenes at european championships in the eighties, though. in fact, it doesn't seem all that much worse than a typical friday night in nottingham.

farmer1

Personally I don't think it is anything to do with the English and football. It is the English and drink. It happens all year round when then English are abroad, it happens all year round down-town on a Friday night. Therefore it is expected that there will be a few scuffles abroad after a match.

davegtt

its all rubbish, football in the 80's had that attraction of fighting and there will always be "die hard fans" who still want to revel in this cause. I believe its mainly died a death now but because of the reputation we carry its hard to shake it off world wide, for example the turkish are probably 10x as bad as us yet when in a european cup game vs an english team they start the attacks (and vicous 1's at that) and instead ofd the news shouting out the turks attack the english its England cause trouble again

its just another story for the press now. look at the night england lost (sob sob) all the press was running around trying their VERY hardest to get footage of any trouble... but there wasnt any, and that was going to be the night if any that the english would have caused the trouble

All IMO off course.

TelBoy

Low-life scum, all of them. Truly disgraceful. Drink has a LOT to answer for.

What's most baffling though, is why they take it out on *British* towns and cities. WTF? For the life of me, i cannot understand that, other than assume it's the adrenaline rush they get from destructing things. Utterly moronic.

tiggers

The people who had their cars set on fire in Boston, Lincolnshire on Sunday night may not agree with that or the ones who experienced the disturbances in Birmingham, Bromley and serval other English towns.

I can understand people having a few drinks etc. and there being scuffles, but the riot police don't often get deployed for that sort of behaviour do they now?

Dracoro

It's not the fault of alcohol or football. It's due to ar$sholes who get violent when drunk. Put a load of them in the same place, give them a reason to be pi$$ed off and watch the fireworks.

What I hate is people saying that 'Bob' is a thoroughly nice chap but changes when he gets drunk so not his fault If you get violent when drunk then DON'T DRINK. Simple.

Freak

Anything that has a big chav following, mixed in with excess alcohol is asking for trouble really......

Senior_AP

Football evokes more passion in people than other sport. I don't know why - it just does.

British people are yobs - its a standards (lack of) thing. I have my thoughts on why but I'll open a can of worms so I'll keep quiet on that one.

Chavs mate. Simple.

ProperCharlie

loads of people suffer damage to cars when students or other oiks decide to do a bit of bonnet surfing on the way home from the pub - ok they don't normally go as far as setting them on fire, but it's all broadly similar.

reports of "hundreds of fans causing mayhem": read 50 people chucking bottles about at closing time. whilst it is undesirable, it's not the massive problem that it's being made out to be.

TelBoy

Sorry?

davegtt

yeah sorry OK I agree with that but I was talking about the trouble flaired in portugal (where 90% of the true fans are) half the idiots who watch england over in england dont even know owt about football, I was out sunday night and sat with a group of friends who dont even like football, there all there in their england tops shouting gerard is cr@p (before the match even kicked off) and lampard this and that, theyve only seen him in an england top not a chelsea 1. my point is that these people are using england as an excuse to go out and get pi55ed up in a good atmosphere, now I dont have a problem with that but doing this also is going to attract the idiots who as said get violent after a few bevvys

New To Scoob

Wish I could answer some of your Q's but heres some of my points.

How true, I've been to several hockey games in Canada and never once seen and trouble between fans, add to this the fact that you can buy beer in the stadium makes it even more unbelieveable but it is a true family night out when you look around the crowd, a fact that seems to have been lost within British football.

Whether it is attracting the wrong type of people is hard to say, I've haven't been to premiership game for years due to hooligans, I'd rather keep away from these people, I personnaly don't think the C18 thing is relevant due to the multi-racial/cultural players most teams have playing nowadays.

Coz we experts at losing and used to it now, but that aside the REAL TARTAN army won't put up with these people, I have heard stories from some of the supporters club 'guys that go to almost every game' about how if they see one or two people tring to intice trouble they take care of it themselves

As has been pointed out, thankfully it has not been as bad as before (so far) but there has been the few usual a**holes who want to spoil it for everybody, also I believe that UEFA have shot themselves in the foot by withdrawing they're threat of kicking the team out if there was any trouble, this would have been an unfortunate outcome for the REAL fans but these real fans must stand up against the idiots and grass them off to the correct authorities.

Just my 2p worth.

John.

ProperCharlie

well, I've been a season ticket holder at White Hart Lane (for my sins ) for the last 3 seasons and have never witnessed any trouble (unless you the ritual lobbing of season ticket books onto th pitch as trouble). Last time I remember seeing any violence at WHL was in the eighties.

ajm

I think it is because football has grown too big for its boots. There is too much coverage, too many teams, too much money and too many fans.

The original values of good, honest sportsmanship have been replaced by money fuelled commercialism and mass marketing. The drivers have changed, which is why we have over paid prima donnas, exhibitionists and thugs involved in the game and attracting the sort of fans they deserve. After all, if its acceptable for players to cheat by taking a dive, why can't the crowd misbehave also?

I say take away the huge pay packets, the merchandise, the massive stadiums and all the bling. Make the players play for the love of game and not the money and make the fans stand in the rain in their hats and scarves. I think you will find the thugs will soon dissolve away to reveal the true fans and sportsman and the lost essence of the game!

Senior_AP

Reeason being finishing 10th nearly every year invokes neither elation nor anger. Just a squirm of "atleast we weren't relegated" or "there's always next year" or "our new manager will put us where we should be" or "Ruel Fox is a god".

Soz - I'm a Gooner. Just playful banter!! ;-)

New To Scoob

PC, sorry should have said " Scottish Premiership Game ", your right about it not being as present, just these idiots have realised that if they take it away from the stadium there is less chance of being caught by police so they take it away to carparks etc.

John.

TelBoy

Football is an easy game to understand.

So it attracts all the low-life who can't get into rugby, don't have the patience for cricket and so on. The "art" of football is lost on them - it just becomes a tribal thing. Add drink and it's a recipe for disaster.

davegtt

what a load of crock. violence was at its highest in the 80's and it wasnt exactly the glamorous game your making it out to be then

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

It's a general attitude problem with this country. Every Friday or saturday night something kicks off (as in fighting not football )in the towns. I happened to see a gang of almost 100 kids fighting 2 weeks ago

You get these very same people going abroad. So Brit holiday hotspots have the same problem, as do England footy events. I don't know what it is with these people, but once they've had a few beers, the slightest thing will set them off.

Last friday I nearly got into a fight with some beered up hard case because he thought I looked at him If it did start off, there would have been 6 people in that fight (5 of us against him ). No doubt if the police turned up we'd all end up in a paddy wagon!

You get the same over there, lots of innocent people caught in the middle of these low lives. Problem is, look from a police point of view are they fighting, or defending themselves? It hard to tell when you have 100's if not 1000's all at it.

Jye

Deffo a tribal thing, like gangs. Afterall how much trouble would these 'fans' cause if they were alone?

BTW whats with all the stupid lardy gits strolling around with their shirts off? FFS they even have their shirts off when they are sitting inside a pub.......

ajm

1980's? It was a lost cause by then. I'm talking about nearer 1960's!!!

As a non-fan I never thought of the game as glamourous, I am just trying to give a fair appraisal for the reasons behind its apparent decline.

davegtt

dont get me wrong I agree it has declined, they are over paid they are all ponces but I disagree this has anything at all to do with the violence.

btw 60's eh, showing your age now

MattW

It's nothing to do with football, it's a cultural thing. It's all about "drink". Look at town on a Friday night, every one chucking as much booze down their necks before 11pm. We should change our licencing laws, make it acceptable for 14 year olds to drink in a pub when accompanied by a parent, allow 16 year olds to drink low strength beers (like the Germans do). Once they get to 18 they'll wonder what all the fuss was about.

Jye

Yeah I guess these fans think some of the 'staus' of their footballing gods will rub of on em. Dunno why it's not as if any of them are exactly role models.

Richard Askew

Hi Tiggers, this thread is sure to be a "live one" due to the way the media and the public percieve the behaviour of English fans abroad, however there will always be violence in football, whether it's in the UK or abroad (look at some of the skirmishes in South America) fortunately it seems that the uber-violence of the 1980's is a thing of the past.

The English fan will be tarnished as a thug for a very long time - I was in France 98 when it kicked off and we were all treat the same - Police dogs and truncheons and a kicking for getting in the way, even those of us trying to get away from the centre of the fighting - unfortunately innocent bystanders like us were walloped just because the French police saw we were English (IMHO)

Football thuggery isnt the English disease that the press and Guardian readers think it is, I'd put money on there being more organised violence in Turkey/Columbia/Germany than at home/club games in England

Thankfully it looks like the UK police have got it right in preventing known thugs from travelling, the organised pitched battles havent happened, what has happened so far has been isolated incidents where a handufl of drunken louts have brawled - this happens in most towns and cities across the UK most Fridays and Saturday nights, without football even being involved.




It ISNT the English more often than not - its just that living in the UK it gets reported back to us - the media wouldnt be interested if the germans were rucking (they have incidently and its hardly been mentioned)

..have you ever seen the aftermath of a Canadian Ice Hockey game? Especially the cup games - mob-rule violence to the extent of 1980's football violence and it happens a lot (again it rarely gets reported to us)

...see above..

...an awful lot of those deported from France in 98 and who are known and banned travellers are well paid professionals with good jobs/families/homes - the days of the stereotypical thug are gone


Agreed - the UK has a culture of drinking and poor social behaviour - eveidence: Ibiza Uncovered/Club Reps - lad/ladette culture of drinking, puking,mooning and tit flashing,casual sex on a night out etc etc - all fuelled by alcohol - not football


..Agreed, although imagine yourself as a true England fan (offical traveller through the FA) and being bitten by a Police dog and hit by a Gendarme just for wearing your nations football shirt and flying your nations flag.

Organised violence is on the decrease thanks to the covert monitoring of websites etc - the odd skirmish is the same as happens when young men get together anyway, and is all down to alcohol, poor upbringing and the latest Club 18-30 culture and NOT football IMO

I hope the rest of the tournament passes without incident and those who have travelled from England get praised by the Portugese for their behaviour


Rich

ajm

Unfortunately I must rely on historical evidence because, much as I would have liked to have been around in the sixties, I wasn't even a twinkle in the milkman's eye!

The link is not direct, you can't say this thug us here because Beckham is a ponce. All I'm saying is if you consider how the game has gone from a sporting event to a media hype-fest it isn't difficult to see how the values of sportsmanship (by fans as well as players) has been lost.

tiggers

That's interesting as I have been to a couple of hockey games and a couple of American football games in the US and not seen anything like this - much more of a family atmosphere.

Not saying it doesn't happen - just surprised as it didn't seem like that would happen from the games I went to.

Still not sure how bad other countries are with the football thing. I have heard Turkey is a bit interesting, but I know several Germans and a Brit living over there all of whom are footbal fans and they don't seem to have heard of violence the way we have - still like you say maybe we are still tarnished by our history.

tiggers.

Faire D'Income

So, can the so called real football fans please explain why we don't get trouble after Rugby matches? There's far more aggression in that game and yet after a particularly bad tempered game against the 'boks a couple of years ago in which we thrashed them, I can still walk through a crowd of pissed up jaapies (wearing an England shirt) in The Castle to get to the bogs without getting my head kicked in?

Brit_in_Japan

Good question(s), no good answers.

Football seems to attract a sector of society who measure their own self worth by how hard they are, whether that's measured in how much they drink or how many of the enemy they face down or beat up. There is a similar problem the world over regards violence and football, it appears to be a more tribal sport than all the others, but the English hooligans seem to take a particularly perverse pride in their notoriety. They wouldn't care if England got thrown out, they aren't there for the football. I expect they think they have a "reputation" to maintain

Rugby is my sport, but it's a million miles different in culture. After a match you have a drink with your opposite number, fans congratulate opposing fans for the way their team played. And alcohol makes no difference, there are no harder drinkers than rugby fans yet there is no violence. .