Speed Limits Set To Criminalise Half Of All Drivers
28 November 2004, 10:18 AM
#1
Scooby Senior
Thread Starter
Speed Limits Set To Criminalise Half Of All Drivers
SPEED LIMITS SET TO CRIMINALISE HALF OF ALL DRIVERS
Plans by the government to change the way in which speed limits are calculated will mean that a full 50% of all drivers would be exceeding the new limits.
"The government wants to scrap the existing calculation, devised by police and road safety experts to maximise safety, and replace it with a new calculation, set by politicians to maximise revenue," said ABD road safety spokesman Mark McArthur-Christie.
In an attempt to circumvent the genuine safety benefits of sensibly set speed limits as described by Circular Roads 1/93, an official document which argues in favour of setting limits at the 85th percentile of speed, the Department for Transport have suggested that this criterion should be replaced by the 'mean' (average) speed because, they claim, the 85th percentile speed "can be heavily influenced by excessive speeds travelled".
Such a move would lead to a further erosion of road safety in this country, and by definition would criminalise about half the driving population, inlcuding the safest drivers who travel at or close to that speed. Take a road with a 50 mph speed limit, where 50 mph is also the speed exceeded by only 15% of drivers - that is, 50 mph is the 85th percentile of speed. If these fastest 15% of drivers all increased their speed, the 85th percentile would remain in the same place. It isn't affected by the actual speeds travelled by a minority (the top 15%) of drivers. Research has shown that speed limits set using the 85th percentile guidelines are obeyed far more than unreasonably slow limits, and also promote travelling at the natural safe speed for a road.
Yet using the mean (average) speed in the way suggested by the DfT could perversely allow a small numbers of high-speed drivers to influence the limit significantly, which the DfT say they are trying to prevent. In addition, future speed limit reviews - after a reduction to 'mean speed' has been made - would discover a new lower average, and speed limits could fall repeatedly in a downward spiral of snail's pace traffic and rocketing driver fines.
ABD Chairman Brian Gregory said "With such careless disregard for safety and the facts, it's no surprise that the death toll on UK roads is now rising after decades of falls. This latest 'big idea' has several serious problems and appears to reveal bizarre thinking at the DfT. This proposal should be ditched immediately."
ENDS
NOTES FOR EDITORS:
The concept of the 85th percentile of speed is a technical area but a vital issue to understand in terms of speed limits and road safety.
For information on the 85th percentile of speed and its implications, and Circular Roads 1/93, see http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limits_85th.htm
ENDS
**************************************************
Press Enquiries: 0870 4442535
ABD general enquiries and membership: 07000-781544
For more information about the ABD visit our Website at http://www.abd.org.uk
The Association of British Drivers is run on a voluntary basis to lobby for the beleaguered British motorist:
"Reclaiming the roads for the people who pay for them"
"Demanding proper roads (and railways) in exchange for paying one seventh of all taxes"
"Debunking the nonsense you hear about the environmental impact of the car"
"Promoting effective road safety instead of the criminalisation of safe driving"
Plans by the government to change the way in which speed limits are calculated will mean that a full 50% of all drivers would be exceeding the new limits.
"The government wants to scrap the existing calculation, devised by police and road safety experts to maximise safety, and replace it with a new calculation, set by politicians to maximise revenue," said ABD road safety spokesman Mark McArthur-Christie.
In an attempt to circumvent the genuine safety benefits of sensibly set speed limits as described by Circular Roads 1/93, an official document which argues in favour of setting limits at the 85th percentile of speed, the Department for Transport have suggested that this criterion should be replaced by the 'mean' (average) speed because, they claim, the 85th percentile speed "can be heavily influenced by excessive speeds travelled".
Such a move would lead to a further erosion of road safety in this country, and by definition would criminalise about half the driving population, inlcuding the safest drivers who travel at or close to that speed. Take a road with a 50 mph speed limit, where 50 mph is also the speed exceeded by only 15% of drivers - that is, 50 mph is the 85th percentile of speed. If these fastest 15% of drivers all increased their speed, the 85th percentile would remain in the same place. It isn't affected by the actual speeds travelled by a minority (the top 15%) of drivers. Research has shown that speed limits set using the 85th percentile guidelines are obeyed far more than unreasonably slow limits, and also promote travelling at the natural safe speed for a road.
Yet using the mean (average) speed in the way suggested by the DfT could perversely allow a small numbers of high-speed drivers to influence the limit significantly, which the DfT say they are trying to prevent. In addition, future speed limit reviews - after a reduction to 'mean speed' has been made - would discover a new lower average, and speed limits could fall repeatedly in a downward spiral of snail's pace traffic and rocketing driver fines.
ABD Chairman Brian Gregory said "With such careless disregard for safety and the facts, it's no surprise that the death toll on UK roads is now rising after decades of falls. This latest 'big idea' has several serious problems and appears to reveal bizarre thinking at the DfT. This proposal should be ditched immediately."
ENDS
NOTES FOR EDITORS:
The concept of the 85th percentile of speed is a technical area but a vital issue to understand in terms of speed limits and road safety.
For information on the 85th percentile of speed and its implications, and Circular Roads 1/93, see http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limits_85th.htm
ENDS
**************************************************
Press Enquiries: 0870 4442535
ABD general enquiries and membership: 07000-781544
For more information about the ABD visit our Website at http://www.abd.org.uk
The Association of British Drivers is run on a voluntary basis to lobby for the beleaguered British motorist:
"Reclaiming the roads for the people who pay for them"
"Demanding proper roads (and railways) in exchange for paying one seventh of all taxes"
"Debunking the nonsense you hear about the environmental impact of the car"
"Promoting effective road safety instead of the criminalisation of safe driving"
28 November 2004, 10:59 AM
#2
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This country is REALLY pis$ing me off 
I thought it was meant to be a ******* democracy? Yet we have a government who seem determined to pis$ off the majority of the public by doing things they oppose.
Yes they (the goverment) have borrowed far too much money, and clearly think they'll collect money from somewhere to pay it back, so as usual its the motorist who foots the bill, so they come up with their usual road safety boll*cks knowing that some people still fall for this crap.
Why not just cut what they spend? Wheres this money going? No doubt most to the NHS to pay for the treatment of health tourists, then a massive amount to immigrants and legal aid for them to fight for their right to stay here - the whole system is wrong.
I thought it was meant to be a ******* democracy? Yet we have a government who seem determined to pis$ off the majority of the public by doing things they oppose.
Yes they (the goverment) have borrowed far too much money, and clearly think they'll collect money from somewhere to pay it back, so as usual its the motorist who foots the bill, so they come up with their usual road safety boll*cks knowing that some people still fall for this crap.
Why not just cut what they spend? Wheres this money going? No doubt most to the NHS to pay for the treatment of health tourists, then a massive amount to immigrants and legal aid for them to fight for their right to stay here - the whole system is wrong.
28 November 2004, 11:24 AM
#3
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This country is REALLY pis$ing me off
I thought it was meant to be a ******* democracy? Yet we have a government who seem determined to pis$ off the majority of the public by doing things they oppose.
Yes they (the goverment) have borrowed far too much money, and clearly think they'll collect money from somewhere to pay it back, so as usual its the motorist who foots the bill, so they come up with their usual road safety boll*cks knowing that some people still fall for this crap.
Why not just cut what they spend? Wheres this money going? No doubt most to the NHS to pay for the treatment of health tourists, then a massive amount to immigrants and legal aid for them to fight for their right to stay here - the whole system is wrong
I thought it was meant to be a ******* democracy? Yet we have a government who seem determined to pis$ off the majority of the public by doing things they oppose.
Yes they (the goverment) have borrowed far too much money, and clearly think they'll collect money from somewhere to pay it back, so as usual its the motorist who foots the bill, so they come up with their usual road safety boll*cks knowing that some people still fall for this crap.
Why not just cut what they spend? Wheres this money going? No doubt most to the NHS to pay for the treatment of health tourists, then a massive amount to immigrants and legal aid for them to fight for their right to stay here - the whole system is wrong
Well someone voted the ***** in!!..............TWICE
dave
28 November 2004, 12:48 PM
#5
Scooby Regular
Another speeding scaremongering thread 
Listen carefully, I have a fiendish plan to avoid EVERYONE on SN having to pay a speeding fine EVER again - no need to waste your money on detectors, no need to pay anyone ANYTHING ever again, no need to get upset with whatever government may do with speed limits,.....
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I will share my secret that I have used for years to escape speeding tickets
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It's not a cutting edge detector
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It's not a way to escape the prosecution
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It's not a special numberplate
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It's not involved in cloning cars identities
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It's perfectly legal
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It takes just a tiny little bit of intelligence
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What is it I hear you screaming!!!
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It's amazing
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get ready
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The next line will reveal the secret - and I want NO money for this!!
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STICK TO THE SPEED LIMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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There we go - I can ABSOLUTELY guarantee that you will NEVER need worry about a speeding fine again, you can dump your speed detector toys, you can lead a stress free life!
Please donate whatever you can to those in hospital suffering because someone, somewhere, thought the speed limit did not apply to them!!
Pete
Listen carefully, I have a fiendish plan to avoid EVERYONE on SN having to pay a speeding fine EVER again - no need to waste your money on detectors, no need to pay anyone ANYTHING ever again, no need to get upset with whatever government may do with speed limits,.....
.
.
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.
.
.
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I will share my secret that I have used for years to escape speeding tickets
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
It's not a cutting edge detector
.
.
.
.
.
.
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It's not a way to escape the prosecution
.
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It's not a special numberplate
.
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.
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It's not involved in cloning cars identities
.
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.
.
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It's perfectly legal
.
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.
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It takes just a tiny little bit of intelligence
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What is it I hear you screaming!!!
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It's amazing
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.and its FREE!!
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YES, FREEEEEEEE!!!!
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OK, here it is
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get ready
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The next line will reveal the secret - and I want NO money for this!!
.
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.
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STICK TO THE SPEED LIMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
.
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There we go - I can ABSOLUTELY guarantee that you will NEVER need worry about a speeding fine again, you can dump your speed detector toys, you can lead a stress free life!
Please donate whatever you can to those in hospital suffering because someone, somewhere, thought the speed limit did not apply to them!!
Pete
28 November 2004, 12:58 PM
#6
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Join Date: Apr 2003
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One interesting thing about the 85th percentile speed is that it also tends to be the speed at which you are least likely to have an accident, even if it is greater than the posted limit. What is also interesting is that those travelling at less than the 85th precentile speed also have a greater risk of having an accident. This may, perhaps, be counter intuitative but is well documented though I don't think the reasons are precisely known.
Generally speaking humans are quite well designed for their own self preservation and this is why they are usually able to pick a safe speed without any assistance from the government.
Once humans make it into government they are also well designed for self preservation and the one thing they know is that if they decrease the speed limits any further than this will pander to the wishes of the green nutters and Stalinists who want control of everone elses lives. So, the limits will fall and the accidents will increase and before you know it you will have all manner of GPS tracking devices on your car "to help reduce the increasing accident trend." In turn a small proportion of people will abandon their cars and take the bus and the green nutters will be beside themselves with joy until they realise that they will not know where you are if you are on a bus.
This bus thing is also tricky for the government as it will negate the advantage of a GPS tracking device on your car so they and the green nutters know where you are. So, what they will need is that you have to carry an identity card that you must present to buy a bus ticket. Oh yes, they have already started that one. Looks like the jigsaw is all falling into place and the British are going to create the totalitarian regime that Stalin failed to create.
The term nanny state makes them sound like a nice old woman who has our best interests at heart. It should be replaced by the term Stalinist state and people should be reminded of the 26 million peasants that Stalin killed in Ukraine alone. Although speed limits look like a trivial thing they are an important element in you eventually being accountable for reporting your every move 24 hours per day.
Generally speaking humans are quite well designed for their own self preservation and this is why they are usually able to pick a safe speed without any assistance from the government.
Once humans make it into government they are also well designed for self preservation and the one thing they know is that if they decrease the speed limits any further than this will pander to the wishes of the green nutters and Stalinists who want control of everone elses lives. So, the limits will fall and the accidents will increase and before you know it you will have all manner of GPS tracking devices on your car "to help reduce the increasing accident trend." In turn a small proportion of people will abandon their cars and take the bus and the green nutters will be beside themselves with joy until they realise that they will not know where you are if you are on a bus.
This bus thing is also tricky for the government as it will negate the advantage of a GPS tracking device on your car so they and the green nutters know where you are. So, what they will need is that you have to carry an identity card that you must present to buy a bus ticket. Oh yes, they have already started that one. Looks like the jigsaw is all falling into place and the British are going to create the totalitarian regime that Stalin failed to create.
The term nanny state makes them sound like a nice old woman who has our best interests at heart. It should be replaced by the term Stalinist state and people should be reminded of the 26 million peasants that Stalin killed in Ukraine alone. Although speed limits look like a trivial thing they are an important element in you eventually being accountable for reporting your every move 24 hours per day.
28 November 2004, 01:04 PM
#7
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PSLewis, you are totally missing the point if you think simply not speeding is the answer.
You are able to maintain a fixed speed in your car when negotiating other traffic travelling at varying speeds? Changing gradients in the road etc? All without constantly glancing at the speedo? I highly doubt it.
Speed limits are cut to unrealistically low limits on many roads, simply so the government can generate more revenue through fines. Its the sheep like you who follow them without question who let them get away with this stuff
Disagreeing with government policy on speed limits doesnt automatically mean youre a lunatic driver.
You are able to maintain a fixed speed in your car when negotiating other traffic travelling at varying speeds? Changing gradients in the road etc? All without constantly glancing at the speedo? I highly doubt it.
Speed limits are cut to unrealistically low limits on many roads, simply so the government can generate more revenue through fines. Its the sheep like you who follow them without question who let them get away with this stuff
Disagreeing with government policy on speed limits doesnt automatically mean youre a lunatic driver.
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28 November 2004, 01:06 PM
#8
Scooby Regular
My FACT remains a FACT and, in case you missed it,
Keep to the posted speed limit and you will NEVER get a speeding fine again!!
I know that you may struggle with this fact, but thats what it is a FACT!!
If you can't adjust your speed to the legal requirements then I suggest you can't drive properly!
Pete
Keep to the posted speed limit and you will NEVER get a speeding fine again!!
I know that you may struggle with this fact, but thats what it is a FACT!!
If you can't adjust your speed to the legal requirements then I suggest you can't drive properly!
Pete
28 November 2004, 01:11 PM
#9
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Originally Posted by pslewis
My FACT remains a FACT and, in case you missed it,
Keep to the posted speed limit and you will NEVER get a speeding fine again!!
I know that you may struggle with this fact, but thats what it is a FACT!!
Pete
Keep to the posted speed limit and you will NEVER get a speeding fine again!!
I know that you may struggle with this fact, but thats what it is a FACT!!
Pete
Pete
i challange you to drive daily for living with a speed logger attached to your car..
based on our archaic speed and signing laws, you will find thay at on at least
10% of all roads you wont know what the speed limit should be!!
dual carrigeway could be 60 or 70 or 30 ...
motorway,,, could be 70 or 60 or 50 or 30..
a & b road....
do you honestly believe you are that perfect...!!!!!!!!
I have to say you epitomise the spin we suffer in todays society..
all that feckin around with nukes has addled your brain mate!!!
M
28 November 2004, 01:21 PM
#10
So in a extreme example, if the national speed limit was dropped to 40mph on motorways, and even on the straightest of empty dual carridgeways in the middle of no-where with no junctions or entrances you have a 30mph speed limit. Would you agree?
Because essentially that is what is happening, purposely lowering speed limits for sake of revenue rather that actual safety, road conditions and accident record. It been has happening for a while round here, roads have had their speed limit cut (for "safety"). Yet the road accident record remains unchanged, and a day after the new posted speed limit...a GATSO gets installed. Just to add to it, they play dirty tricks and put the new speed limit signs AFTER the camera.
I don't get caught.
But because I drive a high performance car, and because It spends most of it's life below 2500rpm (complying to speed limits) it develops missfires, carbons up. So it uses more fuel and does far more damge to mother nature in doing so.
But I'm not speeding, so my concience is clear
Because essentially that is what is happening, purposely lowering speed limits for sake of revenue rather that actual safety, road conditions and accident record. It been has happening for a while round here, roads have had their speed limit cut (for "safety"). Yet the road accident record remains unchanged, and a day after the new posted speed limit...a GATSO gets installed. Just to add to it, they play dirty tricks and put the new speed limit signs AFTER the camera.
I don't get caught.
But because I drive a high performance car, and because It spends most of it's life below 2500rpm (complying to speed limits) it develops missfires, carbons up. So it uses more fuel and does far more damge to mother nature in doing so.
But I'm not speeding, so my concience is clear
28 November 2004, 01:27 PM
#11
Scooby Regular
Originally Posted by ALi-B
But because I drive a high performance car, and because It spends most of it's life below 2500rpm (complying to speed limits) it develops missfires, carbons up. So it uses more fuel and does far more damge to mother nature in doing so.
Do you understand its principles?
Let me help you, drop a gear and the revs go UP!!
Startling fact, but one never the less!
Glad to help!
Pete
28 November 2004, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by pslewis
My FACT remains a FACT and, in case you missed it,
Keep to the posted speed limit and you will NEVER get a speeding fine again!!
Keep to the posted speed limit and you will NEVER get a speeding fine again!!
The fact is that since the introduction of cameras the year on year decline in fatalities has stopped and it has now started to increase. This is just because we are seeing lower limits on roads where the safe limit is much higher and because we are having to spend our days looking out for cameras and because some people believe they are "safe" if they stick to the speed limit.
Road safety is more complex than driving slowly and making regular donations at the tax cameras and as I have repeatedly pointed out this is the thin end of the wedge. We are heading towards remote control of our lives so your uncle Tony can live out his Stalinist dream knowing where each and everyone one of us is at any moment of the day.
I hope you have a good warm coat Pete, Stalin was rather inconsistent in the people he exterminated or deported to Siberia and often people who appeared to be supporters found themselves building power stations in the frozen north. Uncle Tony might see you as a threat and have you shipped off if he gets another term in office so keep your coat by the door.
28 November 2004, 01:54 PM
#15
Scooby Senior
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by hedgehog
So, what they will need is that you have to carry an identity card that you must present to buy a bus ticket.
28 November 2004, 02:12 PM
#16
Just a thought
If I have no drivering licence. Do you really thing a speed limit and a few cameras is going stop me.
I just bought my car off a "mate" in the pub, I don't have a v5...but why would I need that, I'm not going to get bothered by NIPs. Also I don't have to bother with tax or insurance either.
Cheap motoring for me! -especially in the London CC zone - if I drive sensibly, my car is relatively clean and tidy - the chances of a copper stopping me are next to none....there's just not enough about to catch me! Hell, why do I need to bother paying for the fuel?- they're not going to trace me from the number plate (which I nicked off another car in the midst of night).
And when I'm in the mood - let rip through a 30zone at 80mph, afterall what's stopping me?
If I have no drivering licence. Do you really thing a speed limit and a few cameras is going stop me.
I just bought my car off a "mate" in the pub, I don't have a v5...but why would I need that, I'm not going to get bothered by NIPs. Also I don't have to bother with tax or insurance either.
Cheap motoring for me! -especially in the London CC zone
- if I drive sensibly, my car is relatively clean and tidy - the chances of a copper stopping me are next to none....there's just not enough about to catch me! Hell, why do I need to bother paying for the fuel?- they're not going to trace me from the number plate (which I nicked off another car in the midst of night).And when I'm in the mood - let rip through a 30zone at 80mph, afterall what's stopping me?
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