Is anyone else fed up with
23 August 2005, 12:40 AM
#1
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Is anyone else fed up with
the news about de Menezes. Seems that the press have forgotten about the 50 or so other innocents who died a couple of weeks earlier.
I feel sorry for de Menezes and his family, but looking at the context, - if the Met had two choices
1. - shoot three innocents and 2 bombers and save 50 innocents every Thursday
2. Let the bombers roll and use the weekend to mop up.
You are Ian Blair - make your decision.
At the end of the day, no-one set out to kill an innocent Brazilian - that was just pure bad luck - much like being in the wrong place when a lorry has a blowout on the motorway and flattens your car
I feel sorry for de Menezes and his family, but looking at the context, - if the Met had two choices
1. - shoot three innocents and 2 bombers and save 50 innocents every Thursday
2. Let the bombers roll and use the weekend to mop up.
You are Ian Blair - make your decision.
At the end of the day, no-one set out to kill an innocent Brazilian - that was just pure bad luck - much like being in the wrong place when a lorry has a blowout on the motorway and flattens your car
23 August 2005, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by fast bloke
At the end of the day, no-one set out to kill an innocent Brazilian - that was just pure bad luck - much like being in the wrong place when a lorry has a blowout on the motorway and flattens your car
Ian Blair's statements and all have been criticised even by the other experts who dont belong to the media but to the British intelligence itself.
It was wrong and thats that!
Live8 or international "Make poverty History" appeal was totally fuzzed by London bombing.Every other international catastrophe is not making much sense at the mo to the British even when a dire femine in Niger is killing people.Terrorism/extremism in UK is a top news and centre of focus in the UK all over.
Barazillian Man's killing has taken a lead because it is a shaking blunder.Whats shocking replaces what has been shocking.Thats the way media operates.
Still, I reckon media is prioritising Terrorism in UK itself than any other news TBH.
23 August 2005, 03:06 AM
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It is the major downside of the "Kratos" shoot-to-kill policy that innocent people may get killed from time to time. That it happened the very first time they enacted the policy is, quite frankly, unforgivable.
In the same way the US lost moral authority after 11th September by acting as they did with Afghanistan and Iraq, so too have we lost some moral authority by the killing of an innocent man. This has turned the media/people's attentions away from the bombings and reduced what may have been the best defence against the bombers, the human stories of suffering from those who died, into footnotes.
There is not one organisation we can smash, these terrorist cells are almost ephemeral, they can form and disband independent of outside control and without immediate family, friends and colleagues suspecting anything. We cannot negotiate (even if we wanted to) as their aims are not clear.
In some way we have to try to appeal to those suicide bombers on a human level, to make them understand that we are all human beings, we all have families, hopes and dreams. I was fascinated to read about some of those who died, people from various backgrounds, of different nations and religions, the charity workers and care providers. And I was appalled at the waste of potential caused by the selfish and murderous acts of a handful of terrorists. The stories of the victims of 7-Jul may have helped others considering violence to think again. But the botched Kratos killing has focussed the media on the latest story, one which has even more column inch potential as the days and weeks pass. This is a tragedy too.
In the same way the US lost moral authority after 11th September by acting as they did with Afghanistan and Iraq, so too have we lost some moral authority by the killing of an innocent man. This has turned the media/people's attentions away from the bombings and reduced what may have been the best defence against the bombers, the human stories of suffering from those who died, into footnotes.
There is not one organisation we can smash, these terrorist cells are almost ephemeral, they can form and disband independent of outside control and without immediate family, friends and colleagues suspecting anything. We cannot negotiate (even if we wanted to) as their aims are not clear.
In some way we have to try to appeal to those suicide bombers on a human level, to make them understand that we are all human beings, we all have families, hopes and dreams. I was fascinated to read about some of those who died, people from various backgrounds, of different nations and religions, the charity workers and care providers. And I was appalled at the waste of potential caused by the selfish and murderous acts of a handful of terrorists. The stories of the victims of 7-Jul may have helped others considering violence to think again. But the botched Kratos killing has focussed the media on the latest story, one which has even more column inch potential as the days and weeks pass. This is a tragedy too.
23 August 2005, 10:25 AM
#4
Didn't the Brazilian kid run from them when they asked him to stop, and also wasn't he heading for a train?
What would you of done in the copper's situation?
As for the Mother wanting the officer punished who shot her son. She should be asking for the people who gave him the shoot to kill orders to be punished.
What would you of done in the copper's situation?
As for the Mother wanting the officer punished who shot her son. She should be asking for the people who gave him the shoot to kill orders to be punished.
23 August 2005, 10:32 AM
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Its getting on my t!ts now. I too feel sorry and Im sure they'll be compensated as best they can although it'll never make up for the needless death of their son but some off it, its the only thing in the news for weeks and none of whats being reported is new. I hear the same thing every single day.
End of the day Id rather have the police on a shoot to kill policy and feel safer on the LU than be watching every person with a rucksack looking dodgy. Mistakes are made, there is a high price to pay for them mistakes but its a risk Id rather take than have 50 odd innocents killed at 1 time whilst resulting in London coming to a standstill....
Plus its also a deterent to wanna be suicide bombers.
End of the day Id rather have the police on a shoot to kill policy and feel safer on the LU than be watching every person with a rucksack looking dodgy. Mistakes are made, there is a high price to pay for them mistakes but its a risk Id rather take than have 50 odd innocents killed at 1 time whilst resulting in London coming to a standstill....
Plus its also a deterent to wanna be suicide bombers.
23 August 2005, 10:41 AM
#6
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Originally Posted by davegtt
Plus its also a deterent to wanna be suicide bombers.
23 August 2005, 10:41 AM
#7
Originally Posted by davegtt
Plus its also a deterent to wanna be suicide bombers.
Totally agree with that sentiment. The guys picked up in West London on 29th July were reportedly begging the police not to shoot them!!
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23 August 2005, 10:45 AM
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had nothing to do with border control though, he came here ligitimately... unfortunately he didnt leave when he should have done... although true, he shouldnt have even been here, due that now the poor sod has lost his life and taking up lots of police time with investigations about it too...
It wouldnt bother me in the slightest if the police turned around and said yeah we made a mistake, were sorry, cant do nowt about it now. tough ****. But let it be a warning to those who dont follow orders....
Lifes tough, we all know that but if the police ask you to stop and you dont then what do you expect, especially 2 days after more attempted bombings...
It wouldnt bother me in the slightest if the police turned around and said yeah we made a mistake, were sorry, cant do nowt about it now. tough ****. But let it be a warning to those who dont follow orders....
Lifes tough, we all know that but if the police ask you to stop and you dont then what do you expect, especially 2 days after more attempted bombings...
23 August 2005, 10:52 AM
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I do think the Brazilian authorities are making a bit of a meal of it. It was a tragic mistake, of course there should be a proper investigation and so on, which there will be.
It's a bit rich for the Brazilians to start sending all their top brass over here, when their police are blowing away riff raff on the streets every day of the week.
It's a bit rich for the Brazilians to start sending all their top brass over here, when their police are blowing away riff raff on the streets every day of the week.
23 August 2005, 11:00 AM
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If we currently had 1 dead innocent and 4 dead failed suicide ****** then I wouldn't have a problem.
The fact we have 1 dead innocent and 4 suicide ****** being afforded human rights protection whilst being looked after by the authorities makes my blood boil.
It's not like we're gonna let the Police pull out their finger nails and pull out their teeth to get the little w@nks to talk.
The Shoot to Kill Policy only seems to apply to pasty looking innocents.
Someone, somewhere has made a complete ar$e of it - If you can't do the "Intelligence" then you shouldn't operate a Shoot to Kill Policy - Simple.
From the start the Police have, at best, not told us what actually happened when we were being told about police challenges and vaulting heavily clothed brazillians and at worst being covering their ***** - either way some ****** is lying !
The fact we have 1 dead innocent and 4 suicide ****** being afforded human rights protection whilst being looked after by the authorities makes my blood boil.
It's not like we're gonna let the Police pull out their finger nails and pull out their teeth to get the little w@nks to talk.
The Shoot to Kill Policy only seems to apply to pasty looking innocents.
Someone, somewhere has made a complete ar$e of it - If you can't do the "Intelligence" then you shouldn't operate a Shoot to Kill Policy - Simple.
From the start the Police have, at best, not told us what actually happened when we were being told about police challenges and vaulting heavily clothed brazillians and at worst being covering their ***** - either way some ****** is lying !
23 August 2005, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by bioforger
Didn't the Brazilian kid run from them when they asked him to stop, and also wasn't he heading for a train?
What would you of done in the copper's situation?
As for the Mother wanting the officer punished who shot her son. She should be asking for the people who gave him the shoot to kill orders to be punished.
What would you of done in the copper's situation?
As for the Mother wanting the officer punished who shot her son. She should be asking for the people who gave him the shoot to kill orders to be punished.
He was already sat down when the Police officers jumped him before pumping 7 or 8 rounds into his head at close range.
Last edited by Angry; 23 August 2005 at 11:14 AM.
23 August 2005, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Angry
No he didnt run from the police, he saw the train arriving and jogged to get on it. Nor did he jump the barrier, nor was he wearing a heavy jacket.
He was already sat down when the Police officers jumped him before pumping 7 or 8 rounds into his head at close range.
He was already sat down when the Police officers jumped him before pumping 7 or 8 rounds into his head at close range.
Obviously someone MIGHT have made a **** up and it needs to be looked at
23 August 2005, 11:17 AM
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He just came out of the wrong house at the wrong time. 2 + 2 = 5.
Although has anyone explained WHY he was at an address linked to Al-Qaida? Was that totally innocent and unfortunate?
Although has anyone explained WHY he was at an address linked to Al-Qaida? Was that totally innocent and unfortunate?
23 August 2005, 11:19 AM
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block of flats wasnt it Tel? something about he left the flats, the idiotic copper was taking a leak and alerted a possible suspect has left... hence the following events.
23 August 2005, 11:21 AM
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Just seems bizarre that if the flats had a communal exit the police would think *anyone* coming out of it was gun fodder. If that's the case, somebody needs to walk. Nobody deserves to be shot repeatedly in the head under those circumstances, no matter HOW covert their actions/body language appeared...
23 August 2005, 11:23 AM
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Surely alot of it is down to the copper who was taking a leak and not paying attention?
Asking SIB to walk is pathetic IMO. its the "easy" way out. hes not directly to blame and I hate how he should be forced to quit because he was incharge of the idiot who messed up
Asking SIB to walk is pathetic IMO. its the "easy" way out. hes not directly to blame and I hate how he should be forced to quit because he was incharge of the idiot who messed up
23 August 2005, 11:27 AM
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If it was Blair's say-so to gun the bloke, he deserves to resign. If the copper just went off on one, the cooper deserves to be done for manslaughter, if not murder.
23 August 2005, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by davegtt
Id full back the shoot to kill policy even if another innocent got killed again....
The Idea of a shoot to kill policy is fine - provided it's being carried out by people who can be trusted to get it right.
If the guy did vault the barrier when challenged by Police then I have no problem with him being shot ! Equally - having some muslim stand up in a train and shout "death to the infidels" - bullets first - questions later. But boarding a train to go to your job (even if you are working illegally) is not grounds for execution !
From the day this happened I have said that I can't believe anyone is THAT stupid - looks like the guy wasn't stupid - he was just at the wrong end of a bungled "intelligence" operation
.Oh - and they shoot a real terrorist with a ******* Taser - He could have a bomb with a detonater - lets send 20,000 volts through him
23 August 2005, 11:34 AM
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I see what your saying Reality, but 1 dead person by way of a mistake could have saves hundreds....
If the leaked reports ring true then yes there had been a big mistake and something had gone terribly wrong. not something you expect to happen. I dont think they asked SIB were following a suspect shall we shoot him. theyd obviously been told anything out of place, use your own diligence. And you cant blame him for that, in the space of 2 weeks we'd had 8 attemted bombs on the LU and 4 of them went off.... Got to look at the bigger picture.
Reality, asking me "even if it was my son" off course this brings mixed feelings.... although even if my son was a suicide bomber do you think Id like to see my own son shot. although 99.9999% of the population would say yes.... the guy who did blow himself up his father had been convinced it wasnt him etc etc.... Its a question you cant answer.
If the leaked reports ring true then yes there had been a big mistake and something had gone terribly wrong. not something you expect to happen. I dont think they asked SIB were following a suspect shall we shoot him. theyd obviously been told anything out of place, use your own diligence. And you cant blame him for that, in the space of 2 weeks we'd had 8 attemted bombs on the LU and 4 of them went off.... Got to look at the bigger picture.
Reality, asking me "even if it was my son" off course this brings mixed feelings.... although even if my son was a suicide bomber do you think Id like to see my own son shot. although 99.9999% of the population would say yes.... the guy who did blow himself up his father had been convinced it wasnt him etc etc.... Its a question you cant answer.
23 August 2005, 11:35 AM
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Dave, the leaked info from the IPCC is enough proof for me, amongst other sources. 
The leaked evidence, given to the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) by police officers and eyewitnesses, shows that Mr de Menezes:
Did not jump the ticket barriers. He used his Oyster card to enter and even picked up a free Metro newspaper.
Was unaware that he was being followed.
Was never properly identified. A surveillance police officer was unable to record video footage as Mr de Menezes left his home, because he had been "relieving himself".
Wore a light denim jacket, and not a heavily padded coat that could have hidden a bomb.
Did not jump the ticket barriers. He used his Oyster card to enter and even picked up a free Metro newspaper.
Was unaware that he was being followed.
Was never properly identified. A surveillance police officer was unable to record video footage as Mr de Menezes left his home, because he had been "relieving himself".
Wore a light denim jacket, and not a heavily padded coat that could have hidden a bomb.
Last edited by Angry; 23 August 2005 at 11:38 AM.
23 August 2005, 11:38 AM
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Angry, fine its enough proof for you, its not for me. And even if it was, Id still support the shoot to kill policy. 1 innocent/1 coc up is a small price to pay for safety to the majority on the LU... Just think its a bit contradictory to the eye witness reports....
thats my opinion, dont have to agree with it.
thats my opinion, dont have to agree with it.
23 August 2005, 11:50 AM
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Davegtt - If you are shooting to Kill you dont make mistakes.
They clearly didn't know this guy was a bomber - so why the **** did they shoot him.
It is fair to ask if it was your son being gunned down - you said it was OK for innocents to get shot. As to fathers of actual terrorists - I couldn't give a **** how they're feeling to be honest (I do not believe that had absolutely no idea what their sons were capable of)!
Getting back to the original question - this should be kept hi profile until we get some real answers - happened a month ago now and all we're getting is leaked tit bits.
I believe we should have a shoot to kill policy - but for terrorists not commuters.
They clearly didn't know this guy was a bomber - so why the **** did they shoot him.
It is fair to ask if it was your son being gunned down - you said it was OK for innocents to get shot. As to fathers of actual terrorists - I couldn't give a **** how they're feeling to be honest (I do not believe that had absolutely no idea what their sons were capable of)!
Getting back to the original question - this should be kept hi profile until we get some real answers - happened a month ago now and all we're getting is leaked tit bits.
I believe we should have a shoot to kill policy - but for terrorists not commuters.
23 August 2005, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Reality
I believe we should have a shoot to kill policy - but for terrorists not commuters.
23 August 2005, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Angry
The info I just posted is also backed up by a conversation I had with my cousin, who is head of intelligence at the Met...
The head of ALL intelligence services at the Met is compromising his signing of the official secrets act via a conversation on a public telephone system with his cousin??
23 August 2005, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by TelBoy
The head of ALL intelligence services at the Met is compromising his signing of the official secrets act via a conversation on a public telephone system with his cousin??
.
23 August 2005, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by TelBoy
The head of ALL intelligence services at the Met is compromising his signing of the official secrets act via a conversation on a public telephone system with his cousin??
23 August 2005, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by TelBoy
The head of ALL intelligence services at the Met is compromising his signing of the official secrets act via a conversation on a public telephone system with his cousin??
Feel free to believe that I am exaggerating, only I know who my family is
23 August 2005, 12:16 PM
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Either way mate, that's a worrying statement. I had a close realtive in similarly high office who wouldn't even tell me what was in his sandwiches each day!! I'm genuinely surprised, if you're telling the truth.