Aquarium sump design (fish geeks only)
29 August 2005, 09:57 AM
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Aquarium sump design (fish geeks only)
Current set up - 350 Trigon Planted....stunning tank design but too much hassle with the plants and dry fertilisation routine (4 hours pruning/wet work a week)....
so switching to a 5ft (either a juwle vision 450 or a mer aquatica - stunning price, need to view the quality - 5ft 2ft 2ft custum job) and using a pangea back ground for the back - and parts of the base (pangea - http://www.aquarium-background.com/C...slot/Bslot.asp ) The tank will have a LOT of rock added to match the background and become an african tank. Plan is to have something visually stunning before fish and require very little of my arm in it afterwards!
filtration plans - i have two eheims but for the new tank plan to fit a sump (similar to AJMs on his piranha tank) to handle bio and then use an undergravel jet system (google UGJ) to stir up the bottom - prob run 6 jets powered by a submersible with a prefilter - the idea is that the jets stop anything settling on the base and reduce the need for substrate cleaning.
so do i bother with the ehimes? i was thinking of running one of them (which has a built in heater) as theres plenty of space behind the background so why not? prob run it with floss only and it will carry the back up heater built in (main heat via sump)
may also run a powerhead drawing water behind the background (to keep it clean back there and circulated) and dropping it back into the tank with a splash for surface stirring - this will be on a timer for random flow and "rain"
any thoughts? or plans- spent al day on the net yesterday and at 2am i concluded that the best sump design (in terms of pictures to see how it works) is AJM's!!! ther must be something better out there to follow?
T
ohh...ajm + other sumpys - how loud is the setup? i was going to use a durso setup (my tank is back drilled not base) - does any noise come from the water on the *****??
so switching to a 5ft (either a juwle vision 450 or a mer aquatica - stunning price, need to view the quality - 5ft 2ft 2ft custum job) and using a pangea back ground for the back - and parts of the base (pangea - http://www.aquarium-background.com/C...slot/Bslot.asp ) The tank will have a LOT of rock added to match the background and become an african tank. Plan is to have something visually stunning before fish and require very little of my arm in it afterwards!
filtration plans - i have two eheims but for the new tank plan to fit a sump (similar to AJMs on his piranha tank) to handle bio and then use an undergravel jet system (google UGJ) to stir up the bottom - prob run 6 jets powered by a submersible with a prefilter - the idea is that the jets stop anything settling on the base and reduce the need for substrate cleaning.
so do i bother with the ehimes? i was thinking of running one of them (which has a built in heater) as theres plenty of space behind the background so why not? prob run it with floss only and it will carry the back up heater built in (main heat via sump)
may also run a powerhead drawing water behind the background (to keep it clean back there and circulated) and dropping it back into the tank with a splash for surface stirring - this will be on a timer for random flow and "rain"
any thoughts? or plans- spent al day on the net yesterday and at 2am i concluded that the best sump design (in terms of pictures to see how it works) is AJM's!!! ther must be something better out there to follow?
T
ohh...ajm + other sumpys - how loud is the setup? i was going to use a durso setup (my tank is back drilled not base) - does any noise come from the water on the *****??
Last edited by Tiggs; 29 August 2005 at 10:05 AM.
29 August 2005, 10:27 AM
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I'll paste my responses to your PM's for the consumption of the masses:
Originally Posted by ajm
Hello my misguided gas BBQ chum!
My reply is too big to fit in one go so here is part 1...
Because I have a large volume of water already I wasn't too concerned about having the extra reserve of water underneath like some marine setups would have so I designed it to be more filter than sump, ie it runs with only a small amount of water in it. The operating level is about an inch above the egg crate. This kind of answers the next question, the egg crate is there to keep the ***** out of the water so they can get as much of the water film exposed to oxygen as possible. You could argue, why not just fill it up completely with bioballs, but from a cleaning point of view it makes it easier. I haven't yet had to rinse the *****, but when I do I want to be able to do it in situ, and then syphon the sludge off from underneath.
Yes, absolutley, depending on the capicity of your overflow! The level is maintained when the pump is pumping the same amount of water as can escape from the overflow. If you increase the power of the pump the level will rise to a point where the level over the overflow is sufficient to force water out at the same rate again. So generally increasing pump power increases the level but this only works so far though... depending on the diameter of your overflow you can get to a point where the overflow can no longer match the pump, particularly if the overflow is not syphonic, i.e. it isn't working as a pure syphon. My overflow pipe is 50mm with a standpipe on top so there is no exposed end of the pipe. There is a small hole in the part of the standpipe above the water line to allow air into the overflow. This stops it becoming syphonic. It took some tuning, but basically if the level rose enough it could get the overflow running as a pure syphon and at that point literally hundereds of gallons a minute came rushing out the tank. This would cause the level to constantly rise slowly and then come rushing back down again in a cycle.
You want to choose an overflow large enough to match the pump when NOT running as a syphon. In any case its a good idea to use as large a diameter as practical to reduce the chance of a blockage. My 50mm overflow keeps up quite happily with the pump which is rated at about 900 US Gal. per hour.
I was a little bit lucky when estimating how much water the pump would hold up in the tank. When running the sump has about 5" in it. When I turn off the pump it fills nearly all the way up! If I wanted to use a more powerful pump for higher turnover I would have to use a bigger sump! I would also have to lower my overflow pipe to maintain the same water level in the tank.
The pump is rated at 900gph (US) and the tank is 375 US gal. so 2.4 times per hour. (In practise probably slightly less due to the height between the pump and water level)
Turnover rate is one of those statistics that is hotly debated. Obviously the higher it is the more water will pass through the filter, but then the less time the water is in the filter the less chance the bacteria have to do their nitrification! 2-3 times for a large tank is sufficient in my experience. People with overstocked tanks or filters with relatively small biological capacity will say 6-7.
When you are using a drip wet/dry system quoting the usual "rention time" is a bit meaningless, because the filter can be effective with only enough water in to wet the *****, as opposed to a volume of water that is perceived as "sitting" in the filter for long enough for the bacteria to do its thing.
They say one bioball in the right conditions can support one gallon of tank. Therefore I over engineered the biological capacity by using 2,000 ***** and then set the filter up to try and use them effectively, knowing the the turnover was "about right" I was fairly confident it would easily match anything the fish could throw at it, which so far it has! Waiting for the ammonia/nitrites to come down was still a bit of an anxious time though
My reply is too big to fit in one go so here is part 1...
Originally Posted by Tiggs
why do you set your bioballs of the base of the tank via the eggcrate? i assume the lower ***** are under water 100% of the time anyway (whats the operating level of the sump?) as long as the ***** can get into to pump chamber why bother with the gap?
also is it possible to overpump it....so that the pump chamber drops low because the water cant get back down the pipe and through the prefilter quick enough?
You want to choose an overflow large enough to match the pump when NOT running as a syphon. In any case its a good idea to use as large a diameter as practical to reduce the chance of a blockage. My 50mm overflow keeps up quite happily with the pump which is rated at about 900 US Gal. per hour.
I was a little bit lucky when estimating how much water the pump would hold up in the tank. When running the sump has about 5" in it. When I turn off the pump it fills nearly all the way up! If I wanted to use a more powerful pump for higher turnover I would have to use a bigger sump! I would also have to lower my overflow pipe to maintain the same water level in the tank.
what is the tank turn over rate? i assume its just a single inlet and a weir setup? - i have two 2028 eheims on my current 350 litre and im trying to imagine the power difference of a good sump pump set up.....my two canisters create very little flow current.
Turnover rate is one of those statistics that is hotly debated. Obviously the higher it is the more water will pass through the filter, but then the less time the water is in the filter the less chance the bacteria have to do their nitrification! 2-3 times for a large tank is sufficient in my experience. People with overstocked tanks or filters with relatively small biological capacity will say 6-7.
When you are using a drip wet/dry system quoting the usual "rention time" is a bit meaningless, because the filter can be effective with only enough water in to wet the *****, as opposed to a volume of water that is perceived as "sitting" in the filter for long enough for the bacteria to do its thing.
They say one bioball in the right conditions can support one gallon of tank. Therefore I over engineered the biological capacity by using 2,000 ***** and then set the filter up to try and use them effectively, knowing the the turnover was "about right" I was fairly confident it would easily match anything the fish could throw at it, which so far it has! Waiting for the ammonia/nitrites to come down was still a bit of an anxious time though
29 August 2005, 10:28 AM
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Part 2 ...
There is no other filter used. I use a fine foam in the drip tray which takes out visible particles in the water. I used filter floss for a while but but it clogged too easily as the fish are messy buggers. I haven't noticed any difference in particles by using the foam so it seems to do its job pretty well. I drilled some overflow holes at the end of the tray so that the water would not overflow should the foam get clogged up (which it does it I don't clean it at least every 3 weeks). I can hear water pouring through the holes and into the pump chamber when it needs to be cleaned!
The only other thing I use is a Tunze current pump to give the fish some more current to swim in. These are used by the marine guys to setup waves and things in reef tanks and have a nice broad flow because they are propellor driven. Powerheads tend to send out a narrower jet, and in any case I couldn't find a powerhead large enough. The reef guys rig them up to wave generators, or have them pulsing to simulate rolling waves. I just run mine 24/7 to give a more realistic river environment.
I use the generic Eheim 1262 pump which is very versatile. It can be plumbed in with a tank connector or run as a submersible. I chose to run it submersible because:
a) it is easier to setup, no drilling and fitting tank connector in the sump
b) less plumbing to leak
c) should I need to change it I can get the spare pump up and running in minutes without having to drain the sump.
Completely happy! It is so much easier to clean. Hard green algae comes off so much easier than glass for example.
Obviously you do need to be a bit careful not to scratch it, like never use any scrubbing devices designed for glass! Care moving rocks and decoration around etc. Even if you do manage to scratch it badl enough to be visible (small scratches or blooming on the inside is invisble underwater wanyway) it can be polished out in most cases.
The strength factor was what made it worthwile for me though. Acrylic is molecularly bonded together and as a consequece the tank is many times stronger than a glass tank. This means you don't need to use polystyrene on RSJ and breeze blocks to support the thing as the tank will take a tiny amount of flex in the stand.
If I was buying a smaller tank with a stand designed and built for it then I would probably go with glass. Those prices you posted up the other day do look very good!
Hope this is of some help!
I'm sure other people will have different views on turnover rates and filters. They say ask 10 fishkeepers and you'll get 10 different answers, but if you want to throw this open to the floor to get some other opinions, start a thread and I'll paste this lot into it!
...
Originally Posted by ajm
and do you run any additional filtration (mechanical/undergravel jets or anything)
The only other thing I use is a Tunze current pump to give the fish some more current to swim in. These are used by the marine guys to setup waves and things in reef tanks and have a nice broad flow because they are propellor driven. Powerheads tend to send out a narrower jet, and in any case I couldn't find a powerhead large enough. The reef guys rig them up to wave generators, or have them pulsing to simulate rolling waves. I just run mine 24/7 to give a more realistic river environment.
ohh....and you have a submersible pump...why that and not plumb out the tank into a dry pump?
a) it is easier to setup, no drilling and fitting tank connector in the sump
b) less plumbing to leak
c) should I need to change it I can get the spare pump up and running in minutes without having to drain the sump.
just wondered if you were happy with your nonglass tank? im trying to pick glass or not....trouble is glass seems soooo much cheaper!
Obviously you do need to be a bit careful not to scratch it, like never use any scrubbing devices designed for glass! Care moving rocks and decoration around etc. Even if you do manage to scratch it badl enough to be visible (small scratches or blooming on the inside is invisble underwater wanyway) it can be polished out in most cases.
The strength factor was what made it worthwile for me though. Acrylic is molecularly bonded together and as a consequece the tank is many times stronger than a glass tank. This means you don't need to use polystyrene on RSJ and breeze blocks to support the thing as the tank will take a tiny amount of flex in the stand.
If I was buying a smaller tank with a stand designed and built for it then I would probably go with glass. Those prices you posted up the other day do look very good!
Hope this is of some help!
I'm sure other people will have different views on turnover rates and filters. They say ask 10 fishkeepers and you'll get 10 different answers, but if you want to throw this open to the floor to get some other opinions, start a thread and I'll paste this lot into it!
29 August 2005, 10:28 AM
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Part 3...
Its down to the drip tray really. In an ideal world you'd have thousands of tiny holes, but as these block easily and need a good depth of water above them to force the water through I went for 1" grid of larger holes. This was the hardest part to get right and I had to make two trays because the holes were too big the first attempt and the water never made it to the ends! 2nd time I started with 1mm holes and gradually opened them up from the outside holes working inward until I got good coverage. Despite a good tray there will be dry spots within the stack of bioballs, this is inevitable and another reason to use more than theoretically recommended!
I have ball valves on the overflow and the return. Not only for maintenance, but also for tuning the flows if necessary. I managed to get mine set up so both can be left wide open. Use pipe diameter adapters so the valve is a size larger than the pipe so there in little effect on max flow rate as the internal diameter of the valve tends to be less than the size of the pipe it fits.
You shouldn't get flooding if your sump is big enough to hold all the water the pump is holding up in the tank. You'd know this anyway as you'd fill the tank up until it started to overflow and then fill the sump up before switching the pump on!
For the flow rate mine is actually quite a small sump compared with most. Mine doesn't hold enough water to flood the tank. When the level in the sump gets really low due to evaporation (or a blocked overflow if it happened) the pump starts sucking air in and the flow rate drops until the level holds. The pump shouldn't blow although cavitation with air being sucked in isn't ideal!
You also want this to occur before the level gets below your heaters if you have them installe dint he sump! Mine lie on the base of the sump partially under the bioballs (another reason for the egg crate). The pump starts sucking air with about 1/2! depth to spare over the heaters!
Most sumps would actually flood the tank if the overflow got blocked which is why its important to use a good diameter pipe! My weir is a little unusual because it has slots at the bottom and top, so it isn't really a weir in normal sense, so the level on the inside is the same as on the outside. I did this because of the mess my fish make lower in the water. Surface skimming alone would be inadequate. Also, it means I can put foam over the top to stop large pieces of debris (like a fish!) making it into the overflow, this minimises the chance of flooding!
The other flood risk is your return back-syphoning when the pump is turned off. If your return comes out in the tank deeper than the 'switched off' levelin the tank then you need to drill a small hole somewhere in the return pipe slightly above the 'switched off' level to let air in and break the syphon otherwise water will syphon back through the pump and flood the sump!
My return feeds out just under the 'switched on' water level, so it back syphons for a few seconds until the end of the pipe becomes exposed.
The top of the upturned 'u' is about 1/2" under the water level. When I first set it up I had it far too high, I was surprised it took that much depth over the overflow to match the pump. My overflow is acutally adjustable. It passes though a tank connector in the base of the tank so I can loosen it off (having drained the tank!) and slide the whole thing up/down to get the level right. It is a time consuming thing to get it set up right! Some people, if they have room, take the overflow through the back of the tank about 1/4 of the way from the top, this way they can mess around with the pipe lengths without having to drain the whole tank!
See above re my weir. I have slots at the bottom too!
Enjoy your 'grill' 
Originally Posted by ajm
Originally Posted by ajm
Originally Posted by Tiggs
if the ***** are above the sump operating level is there any issue with them drying out at the edges or is that simply good drip tray design?
to assist with cleaning the sump have you installed (or should you have) an on/off tap in the return just after the pump- thus stopping any water syphon via the return when you shut the pump down? seem a good idea of the top of my head!
anti flood - i suppose if the pump fails the only flood issue is if the syphon via the return overfills the sump (which it shouldnt if its only a few inches deep at normal levels) or if the overflow blocks you overflow the tank (which you shouldnt with only a few inches of sump water (although i guess the pump blows in that case)
For the flow rate mine is actually quite a small sump compared with most. Mine doesn't hold enough water to flood the tank. When the level in the sump gets really low due to evaporation (or a blocked overflow if it happened) the pump starts sucking air in and the flow rate drops until the level holds. The pump shouldn't blow although cavitation with air being sucked in isn't ideal!
You also want this to occur before the level gets below your heaters if you have them installe dint he sump! Mine lie on the base of the sump partially under the bioballs (another reason for the egg crate). The pump starts sucking air with about 1/2! depth to spare over the heaters!
Most sumps would actually flood the tank if the overflow got blocked which is why its important to use a good diameter pipe! My weir is a little unusual because it has slots at the bottom and top, so it isn't really a weir in normal sense, so the level on the inside is the same as on the outside. I did this because of the mess my fish make lower in the water. Surface skimming alone would be inadequate. Also, it means I can put foam over the top to stop large pieces of debris (like a fish!) making it into the overflow, this minimises the chance of flooding!
The other flood risk is your return back-syphoning when the pump is turned off. If your return comes out in the tank deeper than the 'switched off' levelin the tank then you need to drill a small hole somewhere in the return pipe slightly above the 'switched off' level to let air in and break the syphon otherwise water will syphon back through the pump and flood the sump!
My return feeds out just under the 'switched on' water level, so it back syphons for a few seconds until the end of the pipe becomes exposed.
on that point how low is you return? just below water line?
my worry is that with the return and overflow up the top do you still get all the gunk find its way up there?
i'll post my planned setup in the SN post.
......and what a sunny day! may have to spark up the BBQ later
......and what a sunny day! may have to spark up the BBQ later
29 August 2005, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ajm
I'll paste my responses to your PM's for the consumption of the masses:
hang on??? you left out the part where you said "...i really want a gas BBQ - i think they are so cool.......gas rocks"
back to fish - why drill the base and not the back wall - doesnt that increase risk of flood or is that very unlikley? - i was planning to drill the back with an outlet at each end and inlet at one end (3 holes)
29 August 2005, 10:38 AM
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Whoops, that lot looks a little ott. I hope I haven't scared any other respondees off with my moses-esque uber-pastes!
You will get water noise from two places:
1) air being sucked in, gurgling. The durso should sort this if set up correctly
2) water falling down a long tube and hitting a 90 degree bend. If yours is back drilled it probably won't have far to fall so should be ok. Try and use gradual angles when doing the plumbing. Mine plummets down a vertical tube and then hits a large flexible tube that gently takes it around the corner.
I'd be surprised if you could hear water trickling over the *****, the next loudest culprit will be the pump. The Eheim I mentioned above is pretty quiet as pumps go, but a good soundproof cabinet really helps!
You will hear some watery trickling noises however, it comes with the territory. Its actually quite theraputic if you don't have a weak bladder!
Originally Posted by Tiggs
ohh...ajm + other sumpys - how loud is the setup? i was going to use a durso setup (my tank is back drilled not base) - does any noise come from the water on the *****??
1) air being sucked in, gurgling. The durso should sort this if set up correctly
2) water falling down a long tube and hitting a 90 degree bend. If yours is back drilled it probably won't have far to fall so should be ok. Try and use gradual angles when doing the plumbing. Mine plummets down a vertical tube and then hits a large flexible tube that gently takes it around the corner.
I'd be surprised if you could hear water trickling over the *****, the next loudest culprit will be the pump. The Eheim I mentioned above is pretty quiet as pumps go, but a good soundproof cabinet really helps!
You will hear some watery trickling noises however, it comes with the territory. Its actually quite theraputic if you don't have a weak bladder!
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29 August 2005, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Tiggs
hang on??? you left out the part where you said "...i really want a gas BBQ - i think they are so cool.......gas rocks"
back to fish - why drill the base and not the back wall - doesnt that increase risk of flood or is that very unlikley? - i was planning to drill the back with an outlet at each end and inlet at one end (3 holes)
Yes, if the tank connector springs a leak I am looking at a big time flood, but 1/4 of the tank would still be a bigtime flood!
An overflow at each end is a good plan, in fact most people opt for that. It gives you extra plumbing to worry about but you have a backup overflow should one get blocked and you have water being taken from each end, so a lot of circulation in the tank is not as neccessary.
The reason I opted for a single overflow and retun located in the centre of the tank was so I could have a rhombus shaped weir on the back wall, which makes it almost invisible when viewed from the front of the tank.
29 August 2005, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Tiggs
how is your overflow plumbed to the drip tray?
29 August 2005, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ajm
It comes out the base of the tank through a ballvalve and then into a large piece of flexible hose which is attached to a 90 degree bend that is cemented through the perspex lid of the sump.
so the lid of the sump is allways attached to that pipe? or can it be unhooked to move the lid clear for cleaning?
did you ever do pics of the setup? i remeber the sump making at the final tank - but an undertank the shot (fishkeeping ****!)
29 August 2005, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Tiggs
so the lid of the sump is allways attached to that pipe? or can it be unhooked to move the lid clear for cleaning?
did you ever do pics of the setup? i remeber the sump making at the final tank - but an undertank the shot (fishkeeping ****!)
did you ever do pics of the setup? i remeber the sump making at the final tank - but an undertank the shot (fishkeeping ****!)
View from the front... notice the bowing in the lid due to the warmth of water underneath it! One area of potential redesign! I tend to turn it up the other way when I clean the sponge and it straightens out before curling the other way!
End showing pump. Note the water level is a couple of inches low here. That is just 2 weeks of evaporation!
29 August 2005, 12:20 PM
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so your water level is only just over the pump?
no danger of the pump running on low levels without you realising?
when you add water do you add it to the sump directly...in fact - how do you water change....i was planning to do water changes via the tank (i am plumbing in a water supply and waste not far from the tank so i just plug in my pipe and drain into the waste then switch to the water supply and fill - a water change on an african tank can be tap water so its fine slowly added to the tank - i was assuming i would just fill the tank until the sump level was set back to normal and that was it - but some people seem to water change via the sump? not sure i want to add fresh tap into that!
no danger of the pump running on low levels without you realising?
when you add water do you add it to the sump directly...in fact - how do you water change....i was planning to do water changes via the tank (i am plumbing in a water supply and waste not far from the tank so i just plug in my pipe and drain into the waste then switch to the water supply and fill - a water change on an african tank can be tap water so its fine slowly added to the tank - i was assuming i would just fill the tank until the sump level was set back to normal and that was it - but some people seem to water change via the sump? not sure i want to add fresh tap into that!
29 August 2005, 12:29 PM
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The pump has a tube on the inlet pointing downwards so it won't run dry until the level gets very low. As I said, you can tell when it gets low because you can see bubbles starting to come out the return in the tank!
It takes about 3 weeks of summer evaporation to get that low, but I normally do a water change weekly or once every two weeks.
Plumbing to the tank is a great idea. For me it would have been too much of a nightmare as the nearest drain is a long way away. I use a big water butt in the garage premixed with conditioner and preheated. I syphon the water out using a long hose and then pump the fresh water in from the garage.
If you are doing a large water change it probably is better to let the sump fill up with tank water to keep the bioballs wet and the bacteria happy and then put the fresh water into the tank. However, if you are looking at plumbing freshwater to the tank you could also think about installing an automated topup system on the sump. There are several commerically available products that work basically like an electric ball ****.
It takes about 3 weeks of summer evaporation to get that low, but I normally do a water change weekly or once every two weeks.
Plumbing to the tank is a great idea. For me it would have been too much of a nightmare as the nearest drain is a long way away. I use a big water butt in the garage premixed with conditioner and preheated. I syphon the water out using a long hose and then pump the fresh water in from the garage.
If you are doing a large water change it probably is better to let the sump fill up with tank water to keep the bioballs wet and the bacteria happy and then put the fresh water into the tank. However, if you are looking at plumbing freshwater to the tank you could also think about installing an automated topup system on the sump. There are several commerically available products that work basically like an electric ball ****.
29 August 2005, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ajm
The pump has a tube on the inlet pointing downwards so it won't run dry until the level gets very low. As I said, you can tell when it gets low because you can see bubbles starting to come out the return in the tank!
It takes about 3 weeks of summer evaporation to get that low, but I normally do a water change weekly or once every two weeks.
Plumbing to the tank is a great idea. For me it would have been too much of a nightmare as the nearest drain is a long way away. I use a big water butt in the garage premixed with conditioner and preheated. I syphon the water out using a long hose and then pump the fresh water in from the garage.
If you are doing a large water change it probably is better to let the sump fill up with tank water to keep the bioballs wet and the bacteria happy and then put the fresh water into the tank. However, if you are looking at plumbing freshwater to the tank you could also think about installing an automated topup system on the sump. There are several commerically available products that work basically like an electric ball ****.
It takes about 3 weeks of summer evaporation to get that low, but I normally do a water change weekly or once every two weeks.
Plumbing to the tank is a great idea. For me it would have been too much of a nightmare as the nearest drain is a long way away. I use a big water butt in the garage premixed with conditioner and preheated. I syphon the water out using a long hose and then pump the fresh water in from the garage.
If you are doing a large water change it probably is better to let the sump fill up with tank water to keep the bioballs wet and the bacteria happy and then put the fresh water into the tank. However, if you are looking at plumbing freshwater to the tank you could also think about installing an automated topup system on the sump. There are several commerically available products that work basically like an electric ball ****.
my water supply is going to be simple and 500% leak proof!
basically i am going to drill two holes in the living room wall just above skirting board behind a sofa (about 2 ms from where the tank sits (which is not on the external wall but close by)
both holes will have a tap and a quick release conector - on the other side of one will be a drain pipe that runs down the side of the house to the cover over the main waste pipe drain (which is under our decking)
the other pipe will run via a hose to our outside tap near the backdoor.
a water change will simply be a case of hooking a 3 m pipe tothe waste hole - turning the tap, use a syphone device in the line and syphon water from the tank (filter on the pipe so no large gunk gets in the pipework. when lowered enough (having already filled the sump as you suggest) i will switch the pipe to the water inlet and pipe fresh back in - having hooked the hose up before hand.
this means no mains water will be plumbed into the main room so no chance of the kids/dogs/me flooding the place - it will just be simpler than using a python hose through the house from the utility room as i do now.
my only issue is putting fresh water staright in - i do this now on a 10% weekly change and levels are fine.
an alternative is to mount a butt on the external wall above the tank height and prefill this, heat it ect and use that as the fresh supply.....the external wall is actually covered by a lean-too shed that runs the lenghth of the house so that may work instead.
29 August 2005, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ajm
If you are doing a large water change it probably is better to let the sump fill up with tank water to keep the bioballs wet and the bacteria happy and then put the fresh water into the tank. .
does your pump hold enough water in the tank for that to fill the sump just by turning of the flow?
29 August 2005, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Tiggs
does your pump hold enough water in the tank for that to fill the sump just by turning of the flow?
29 August 2005, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ajm
Yes, if I switch off the pump the sump fills nearly all the way.
so that extra water normally is the volume that exist in the return pipe plus the surface area of the tank X the ?mm that the surface is above the overflow........do you calculate that or guees and adjust?
29 August 2005, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Tiggs
so that extra water normally is the volume that exist in the return pipe plus the surface area of the tank X the ?mm that the surface is above the overflow........do you calculate that or guees and adjust?
I had a stab at calculating it, but there are so many factors. The pumps never perform exactly as they say due to the head of pressure, plus factors that affect the flow of the pipes, bends etc.
Mine is probably the smallest I can get away with for the flow rate I am using, even though the biological capacity is much more than needed.
If I wanted more flow rate I'd have to upsize.
29 August 2005, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ajm
I hate to say it but it is largely trial and error!
I had a stab at calculating it, but there are so many factors. The pumps never perform exactly as they say due to the head of pressure, plus factors that affect the flow of the pipes, bends etc.
Mine is probably the smallest I can get away with for the flow rate I am using, even though the biological capacity is much more than needed.
If I wanted more flow rate I'd have to upsize.
I had a stab at calculating it, but there are so many factors. The pumps never perform exactly as they say due to the head of pressure, plus factors that affect the flow of the pipes, bends etc.
Mine is probably the smallest I can get away with for the flow rate I am using, even though the biological capacity is much more than needed.
If I wanted more flow rate I'd have to upsize.
so if you increase the flow now the tank would not drain back to the sump fast enough?
29 August 2005, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Tiggs
so if you increase the flow now the tank would not drain back to the sump fast enough?
Either that or I'd have to get the overflow drilled to a larger diameter!
30 August 2005, 08:44 AM
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Having been reading up on the marine fora of late, quite a few make use of various non-return values, ball valves to allow swap out of components (pumps) without the need for draining. Also float switches have been used to control levels and activate auto top mechanisms to deal with evaporation. Marine sumps seem to be considerably more complex in terms of having skimmers, rowaphos etc etc in there as well.
One comment would be, as you are producing a drain tap for water changes, I suggest a higher dilled hole in the sump that runs to the same drain, this whould be well above normal operating levels, but enough to stop any excess from flowing over the carpet in the event of a pump shut down. This would allow you to get away with a smaller sump.
I'd also recommend running your tap water in to a drum to stand for a couple of days before running it to the tank. Worth pre-heating and adding any water conditioners at this point, then pump from the drum. Water direct from the mains is not the best, even for reasonably hardy fresh water trops, although I have managed to get away with tap to bucket to tank with only a short standing time (10 mins) with suitable anti-chlorinating agents and conditioners.
One comment would be, as you are producing a drain tap for water changes, I suggest a higher dilled hole in the sump that runs to the same drain, this whould be well above normal operating levels, but enough to stop any excess from flowing over the carpet in the event of a pump shut down. This would allow you to get away with a smaller sump.
I'd also recommend running your tap water in to a drum to stand for a couple of days before running it to the tank. Worth pre-heating and adding any water conditioners at this point, then pump from the drum. Water direct from the mains is not the best, even for reasonably hardy fresh water trops, although I have managed to get away with tap to bucket to tank with only a short standing time (10 mins) with suitable anti-chlorinating agents and conditioners.
30 August 2005, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by OllyK
I'd also recommend running your tap water in to a drum to stand for a couple of days before running it to the tank. Worth pre-heating and adding any water conditioners at this point, then pump from the drum. Water direct from the mains is not the best, even for reasonably hardy fresh water trops, although I have managed to get away with tap to bucket to tank with only a short standing time (10 mins) with suitable anti-chlorinating agents and conditioners.
Leaving water to stand is unfortunately not as effective as it once was as most water companies use chloramine instead of chlorine in the water now. Chloramine is much less volatile and doesn't fume off the water like chlorine does, so I'd always recomend using a water conditioner (which is effectively just sodium thiosulphate plus a few bits and bobs to boost the fishes slime coats)
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