Geezer

On the BBC news website today, there is a story of how in Kansas they have forced teachers to tell children that evolution is without basis in fact, lacks evidence and contradicts fossil record.

They have now have to teach them 'Intelligent Design', which basically says that the world is so complex that new species can be explained only as the product of an intelligent creator or designer.

Now I know that evolution ain't perfect, but the evidence for it does exist, admittedly with some holes, but there is no evidence whatsoever for Intelligent design, other than narrow mindedness which cannot accept that things can come into being without higher influence.

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it disturbing that the most powerful nation (currently) on earth can order their teachers to basically lie to children?

Geezer

OllyK

This isn't the first, Pensylvania did it some time ago, they are now trying to get it overturned: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=45694

Most seem to be happy to discuss ID in school, but in the Religious Education or Philosophy classes. It has no scientifc basis whatsoever and claims that Evolution is "just a theory" shows the complete lack of understanding these people have of what science is all about.

Reality

American kids have more to worry about than if there is a Dog .

JTaylor

I asked this question a while ago. Dubya is a creationist/Christian fundamentalist...... that's right folks, the most powerful person in the world thinks that Darwin, Dawkins, Hawking, Einstein et al were/are all wrong. He also said "I have opinions of my own - strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them"......

Brendan Hughes

What, like whether it comes with mustard and fries on the side?

Andrew Dixon

I'd reckon it's more a case of GWB claiming to have these views in order to gain favour with America's Christian voters ...? Perhaps the same reason that he recently claimed that God had instructed him to invade Iraq.

SJ_Skyline

Sure it wasn't Dog?

OllyK

I doubt it, his father was (is) a Christian fundamentalist nut job as well.

SJ_Skyline

Here was me thinking that Dubbya was just a crackpot simpleton with his finger on the button of 11,000 nukes....

Suresh

Intelligent Design is infact plausible i.e. not impossible. On the other hand, believing that all of this happened just by chance is a little too far-fetched, but is also plausible.

Teaching both possibilities is the right thing to do - so long as no particular religion is being promoted.

All IMHo of course.

Suresh

RedFive

So aliens creating the earth is plausible ?

Douglas Adams was right after all then

SJ_Skyline

It's at times like this I wish I'd listened to what my mother said!

OllyK

No ID is not plausible in any scientific sense. It does not present a falsifiable hypothesis. I agree there may be some issues with evolution, but because it is not 100% correct, does not mean therefore that ID is. ID is untestable and is NOT science - end of.

And that of course is where it all falls down, it's only really the YEC Christians that believe in ID.

OllyK

Your mixing your religions. 99.999% of ID proponents believe the designer is the god of the bible, specifically the new testament christian god. It is scientologists that believe that aliens created the earth.

RedFive

Yes & no.

ID is the new name for creationism, which was effectively banned (by law) from schools in the US. There was a problem mentioning this "god" person, so ID does state that
the "watchmaker" could be an alien or a god.

But I agree with you most "ID proponents" don't know about this, and just think it's the Christian God.

There was talk in the Netherlands too BTW to have this tought at schools.

JTaylor

Options are good and it's perfectly feasible for science and religion to sit side by side.

RedFive

I absolutely agree. I do however object to teaching ID in biology classes (which is what this is all about)

JTaylor

Agreed

Brendan Hughes

Why, what did she say?










.....

RedFive

I didn't dare to ask.

My guess was "now finish your bacon butty SJ! "

SJ_Skyline

I don't know, I didn't listen!

Brendan Hughes

RF, you missed that one? One of my favourite Arthur Dent quotes, I use it a lot

RedFive

Oh ****, you (and SJ) had me <shamesmiley>

I have to admit I only discovered his work this year. I first read the book (well, the trilogy in 5 parts version) and it blew me away. Totally. And read it again. And again.

Only yesterday, I saw the DVD. I preferred the book, but that is a long story and probably personal.

"Who is this God person anyway ?"

I seem to be having a problem with my lifestyle.

Anglophile, moi ? Nah I designed Norway

Brendan Hughes

Still haven't seen the film, it came and went round these parts

RedFive

It is a very good film if you don't know the book, or are not familiar with "Englishness". Some scenes are hilarious nonetheless. The improbability drive created whale is very funny

But having read the book, I kept thinking "no, that's not right !"

OTOH, the tour he gets with Slartibardfast is truly brilliant IMHO. I think the movie is worth watching for that scene alone.

OllyK

Let's just hope that Kansas see the light in a couple of months and follow Pensylvania: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4427144.stm

Drunken Bungle Whore

I absolutely agree with the fact that religion should be kept out of science classes - New Scientist have been following the case really closely so if you want more of the facts check them out.


It all kicked off with a statement read out at the start of a science class and has escalated from there. As I understand it the hard and fast rule in the US is that there must be a clear separation between the Church and the State - thus the options for teaching religion are somewhat limited - hence the fact they're trying to introduce ID into science classes. It's basically Creationalism re invented.

It's not a debate about whether or not religion should be taught in school - it's about whether it should be taught as a science.

The worst thing about this? I was in a really good mood and now I have to agree with OllyK - **** - I really hate it when that happens!

Leslie

There is no reason why you can't believe in God and also in the theory of evolution.

Maybe a bit strong to say that the Americans are teaching a lie since it cannot really be proved either way, but both sides of the equation should certainly be presented.

Les

OllyK

That depends on your particular flavour of god. In particular, if you belive the bible is literal, that god create Adam then you are in conflict with the evolutionary concept that man evolved from less complex primates.

If you want to teach ID as a belief system, then that's fine by me in RE or philosophy classes.

As you say, ID cannot be proved or disproved which is a classic test for the scientifc method. If the hypothesis cannot be falsified, then it is not scientific. Either ID needs to present a falsifiable hypothesis or it needs to be kept out of science classes.

Geezer

Are you saying that God created basic amino acids 'n stuff, let them evolve for 3.5 billion years, not knowing what they would evolve into, then when evolution happend upon an intellgent form in his image, told them all about it so they could have religion?

Seems a tad unlikely!

The two things really are at odds with each other.

Geezer