Tiggs

My 2 eldest have been going to Tae Kwon Do for a few weeks. We choose it because its run at their school so is very local.

I went to collect them tonight and thought it was crap!

The kids in my eldest class arrive before the end of my youngest class (classes split in age groups) These kids just screw around while waiting for their class and generaly behave like fcukin chav/hoodie idiots. The class itself seems very relax and no one is picked up on errors or mild mucking about.
As my eldest is one of only 3 girls when he says "pair up" she is often left without a pair (as the chav boys buddie up with their mates) it takes instructor ages to spot she is without a partner then sticks he with someone too small for her so he cant hold the pad high enough for her kicks. He should have split up some chavs and paired them properly (imo) So she ends up doing a few kicks (that nearly kill the little guy shes with) and no one even watches to see if they are right or not.....pointless.

Now the instructor is supposed to be one of the top in the UK and runs loads of local classes so i wondered if its the wrong sport.....i did Judo for 8 years as a kid and remember it being far more strict and structured. I have also heard various bits about Tae Kwon Do not being a very usefull self defence either.

Basically i want them to have:

Fitness
Discipline
Self Defence
Fun (not too important)
Be able to beat the **** out of chavs in competions in a couple of years

Any pointers?

warrenm2

you dont say what area but can highly recommend http://www.wtdefence.com/ Very good - although obviously each instructor is an individual!

NeilT

How about Karate - I train in traditional Shotokan karate, and it covers all of the criteria you list. Most clubs run kids classes, separate from the adults and most I've seen are very stuctured, and teach a good level of discipline, from an early age. Also, they are unlikely to get injured in a kids class.

My kids are too young for my sensei to accept them (18 months 4yrs and 6yrs), but as soon as they reach 7 they'll probably attend the kids sessions.

BTW - I've tried Thai Boxing, Gung Fu, Bujinkhan, Wado Karate and now settled on Shotokan. All of the pervious clubs I've trained at have instructors that have insisted they are "britains #1 champion" "top UK instructor", "champion extraordinaire!", all that is apart from my current club, which IMHO is the best run of all, no BS, just good traditional instruction .....so from this I'd suggest avoiding any which make pointless boasts about their prowess.

Neil

Tiggs

theres a local shotokan club so i will go check that out.

Poor Guy

i study Wing Chun and i am a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. did TKD for many years and our instructor was rather strict and found it to be very useful. A fun one for kids might be 7 star praying mantis. lots of jumping and kicking, theres a couple of kids doing it at my local club and they seem to love it.

mart360

my son does Karate, agreed it teaches them some discipline, and they learn that getting hit can hurt too!!!

Mart

Poor Guy

Im not going to come out and say thats a load of crap because theres some truth in there. I got caught up in a situation recently where TKW couldnt be used, twas too close, but in a situation where you want to keep someone at a distance its useful with kicking. Within an extented arms length, Wing Chun is the one to go for. Mixing the 2 seems to be really useful. Where I study some friends were quite impressed witth the power in a well structured kick.

mad555

iTrader: (1)

Kick Boxing.
www.prokick.com for more info.

FASTER MIKE!!

what about ju jitsu? bit like judo, but its less strenth orianated prob better suited for self defence than other martial arts, personal i thai box but my old instructor was also a black belt at ju jitsu and used to show us some self defence moves at the end of the class and are quite handy, some are very simple but effective. hyperextening joints work very well

mike

warrenm2

wing chun was devised by a woman - hence strength not so important in this style

Poor guy - hows the lip? Why not use the Wing chun moves then?

Poor Guy

lip healed in a few days. I thought discretion was the better part of valour in that situation. 4 on 1, 3 being bigger than me is not the best odds.

talizman

iTrader: (1)

Tiggs,

I've practised and taught TKD for 17 years and it disappoints me when folk have negative experiences such as yours.

I appreciate that you may not want to disclose specifics, but may I ask what style of Taekwon-Do you your kids to (ITF or WTF) and also which UK association were they members of? (TAGB/UKTA/PUMA/GTF etc etc)

I appreciate that it is probably not of any concern to you, but national governing bodies take this type of thing very seriously as these type of Instructors give us all a bad name.

One of the main problems is that many kids classes tend to be run on a "creche" basis with a revolving door and lots of money changing hands.

I've personally experienced a kids class with 86 kids and one Instructor. (yes I did say 86!)

Now the kids were charged £3 for 1 hour lesson and not one kid was taught/corrected etc. Almost £300 for an hours work.... not bad!
Needless to say, this type of Instructor is running his class as a business first and a martial arts school second. Maybe thats why he drives a brand new S class Merc?

It sounds to me like your class may be similar to what I've described, so I'd look elsewhere for an instructor with smaller manageable numbers and a good reputation.

Now, regards TKD specifically. You are quite correct in that it is not the be-all-and-end-all self defence system, but what is?
Frankly NO martial art ticks all the boxes for self defence. Mixed Martial Arts is by far the best method of self defence.
Taekwon-Do is reknowned for flashy, high, aesthetically pleasing kicks and is a great sport/pastime/hobby but more appropriate for competition and fun, than street defence.

It is undoubtedly one of the most powerful martial arts but is not suited to close range, nor ground defence etc.
If you can keep someone at leg's length, then you can kick them umpteen times about the head before they know it, but if you are attacked from behind or end up rolling around with someone, you'd be grateful for some good old Brazilian Jui-Jitsu!

All the best and hope you find something that suits you and your kids

Poor Guy

This is why Im doing the wing chun, as 1 system cant really cover all. I want to study brazilian ju jitsu and aikido too. Absorb whats useful, discard whats useless and add whats my own. (3 guesses to whose philosophy I think makes best sence lol)

talizman

iTrader: (1)

For a "complete" self defence system, the following would bode fairly well.....

Punching/striking/knees/elbows - Muay Thai
Kicking - Taekwon-Do or Muay Thai
Take downs - Judo, Wrestling, Aikido
Ground defence - Brazilian Jui Jitsu
Submissions - Brazilian Jui Jitsu

Plus any other art thrown into the mix will add benefits but the above would be my choice if I were to attempt to achieve ultimate self defence.

The Chief

I am surpised at that, i did Tae-Kwondo for 4 years and i thought it was a great disciplined self defence. was it with the TAGB? by any chance, if not go onto the TAGB website and look for a local school, the last thing you need at a class is a load of p***ing about when you should be training.

Oh and the bit about TKD not being very good at self defence - utter crap, ok you dont start doing axe kicks or reverse hook kicks in the street - but there is another side to TKD that a lot of people dont see i.e. the nasty self defence side of it, you wont see this until you are quite a high grade btw, my instructor was world champion and he weighed in at 12 stone and i can honestly say i have never been hit as hard in my life by anyone!!! and i'm a big lad.

I woudl vouch for TKD for anyone

talizman

iTrader: (1)

Chief, I admire your loyalty to TKD and I am more loyal than anyone, having practised and taught it for 17 years, but I am also honest enough to admit that it is far from the Holy Grail in terms of self defence.

You speak of "the side of TKD that people don't see until quite a high grade".... what use is this to Tiggs' 9 year old? He wants a self defence martial art that works NOW, not in 15-20 years when he or she is 4th Degree!

The Chief

I totally agree with what you are saying in fact Dave Oliver once said that people think just because they have a black belt that makes them indestructible! the truth is some hardman or nightclub bouncer would wipe the floor with them, i would say if self defence is their only goal then do a self defence course, TKD as you know is so much more than that!

martial arts gives you an advantage over the average guy nothing more, like boxing which is a sport which i admire, just because you can box does not mean you can street fight

The Chief

Being an ITF practitioner, have you heard of Roger Lawrence by any chance, he won the middleweight world championship in 1999,

with regards to self defence i agree it takes years and years, i really dont believe you can learn anything advanced in a short space of time.

On a personal level i thought it (at first) it gave me a false sense of security and over confidence, when i in fact would have had my *** handed to me on a plate, however it gave me the insight to spot trouble and avoid it before it started, that i believe is the ultimate self defence!

warrenm2

Yes being aware is very relavent, check out Geoff Thompsons books particularly the 3 second fighter he covers this as a set of traffic light states.

The Chief

I recieved an e-mail off Geoff once, i asked about doing one of his self defence course's unfortunately he only did them in Coventry at the time, but he used to travel about a bit doing seminars around the country, a man i would love to train under

Tiggs

Its ITF.....the calss is not as bad as the one you mention with 86!!!! but there is a general lack of discipline that gets on my nerves. As an example.....last night was side kick practice, two boys do 10 kicks each (other holds the kick pad) - they finish their kicks before the other pairs and have a quick glance round (the teacher had not seen any of their kicks as he was with someone else so they may as wel have done these at home for all they learnt) with a few seconds to spare they start kicking the pad with their own "school playground attack style" to see if they can bust the pad open i think!!! anyway, after a few kicks the instructor hears the whacking , sees what they are pratting about at and just says "ok class, pads down....this is what we are doing next"................now i would want (even if it was my kid) him to tell them to stop screwing around, pay attention and do as they are told.

as for the self defence stuff.....at the moment eldest is 9 and hopefull isnt in regular need of self defence! however, when shes 16 and out in a club if she gets grab by some chav hiding in an alley i want her bust his nose and introduce his groin to his rib cage before he gets out his chat up line - not sure TKD will be best for such stuff?

Brendan Hughes

Tiggs, I wouldn't bother looking for a particular martial art at that age, I'd look for a good club / teacher. Any martial art is effective when taught well, and they are all equally crap if taught badly. Whatever your daughter learns, if she has 7 years of good teaching she'll be pretty dangerous.

BTW, the ability to be national champion has no bearing whatsoever on the ability to teach other people.

talizman - instructors like that make me puke

Tiggs

agree - going to see a local shotokan (sp?) karate place tonight.

T

jjones

try some parenting classes for yourself.

Tiggs

during the lesson she is under the rule of the instructor- my parenting has no impact on her at that time so not relevant.

thanks for your useless input.

talizman

iTrader: (1)

The name sounds familiar but can't place him.

I assume he is TAGB since you mention Dave Oliver previously?

We (ITF) don't mix much with TAGB. Although TAGB practise ITF style TKD (Chang Hon style) the similarities end there. TAGB from a very early stage concentrated more on the sport side than the art side and as such, haven't really kept up with the evolution of modern TKD.

I have 3 ex TAGB students training with me currently..... 2 x 1st Kups and a 4th Kup and watching their moves is like watching a video of me from the late 80's-early 90's!

The Zohan

I'll second Shotokan. I did it for several years.

I sounds a real shame that the club you are with at the moment lets some of its kids get away with bad behaviour!

One of the main things that struck me when a started training was the respect and disipline shown to all by all - which are sadly all too lacking these days.

pauly

iTrader: (1)

my little lad jus started karate and loves it he's only 4
i sat and watched his 3rd lesson the other night and was very impressed with the discipline and the quality of instruction he's also learning a hell of a lot already very probabaly BECAUSE ITS FUN
there are good and bad instructors out there. go round a couple of classes and have a look at them it will take you 5 mins watchin to see if they're any good or not.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Another vote here for Jiu Jitsu, it's focused almost entirely on practical self defence, and certainly ticks the 'fun' and 'fitness' boxes too. It's mostly non-competitive, which suits me fine - people are free to progress at their own rate and advance from one belt to the next whenever they're ready. Take a look at www.planetjitsu.com or http://www.jitsufoundation.org.

NeilT

a little off topic for a second - I've got my Shotokan grading this sunday .....wish me luck eh

Neil