wacky.banana

Just learnt that ANPR is a fact of life on the Midlands Motorway network. For some reason this seems to have passed me by.

Does anyone know when this system became operational, how widespread is it on the network in terms of coverage, how it's used, especially between forces in terms of information flow and data protection laws, and what the legal basis for its installation is. Have any legal groups challenged this yet, by the way?

Hedgehog et al, I asssume you can throw some light on this?

For anyone responding to this thread please don't roll out the tired arguments about "if you have nothing to hide then you should be ok". I'm looking for factual answers on this please.

Many thanks

WB

harvey

iTrader: (48)

I cannot help you re Midlands but since July and perhaps before, there have been ad hoc ANPR sessions on the A1M Southbound from Darlington with vehicles pulled over at Barton and Scotch Corner.

AlfasudQV

Yes, get completely p***** off with that stock response as well.
Try the following URL
http://www.pito.org.uk/what_we_do/id...ation/anpr.htm
Just another Orwellian nightmare.

wacky.banana

Alfasud,

Thanks for the link. This is much more serious than I thought. "Fingerprinting by the roadside...", "National Database with tools to mine this (information".

What happened to the public debate that one would expect around this kind of development? Where are the legal safeguards?

WB

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

There's always been a set of what looks like ANPR camera on the M5 (after Droitwich IIRC)

fatherpierre

Drive into the City of London and you get auto checked.

Why worry if you're pukka?

No data protection issues between different police forces - a simple computer message (like email) passes on the info.

Just wait until the ANPR highlights those driving cars without insurance cover.......... On its way.

wacky.banana

Two things: The CPO I heard talking about this system said, quote, "mistakes are sometimes made". The way he said it did not inspire me with confidence.

Second, number plate cloning is a growing menace. It would be interesting to see how ANPR protects the innocent in this scenario.

I happen to know someone whose plate was cloned and she spent a horrible 3 months being stopped virtually every time she stepped outside her front door. Was the cloned car ever stopped? Not to her knowledge, but it did rack up a shedload of speeding fines on her behalf.

Sorry, FatherPierre, don't buy the argument of "don't worry if you are clean", which is why I expressly asked for this type of comment not to come into this thread.

Anyone else got any more constructive comments to add to this? I am particularly interested in what happened to the public debate on this. Seems very quiet on that front.

corradoboy

http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=478809

http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=471241

AlfasudQV

Also read somwhere that the 'powers that do what they want' want to use RFID in number plates. I understand that the Worst insurance company Norwich Union , have been trying to instigate insurance only if vehicles have trackers in them.
Ultimately all of these things will come to being, and nothing will stop them. Your future movement is going to be monitored as is a high percentage of other things. Can come up with lots of argument for the 'if you have done nothing wrong brigade' but it all becomes too depressing for words, think I will rename the 'Scud' Marvin

wacky.banana

Corradoboy,

Thanks.

I don't spend that much time on here so missed the debate. The problem of innocent people being caught up in this via mistakes and abuse of the system,eg number plate cloning, is so high I can't understand why the debate around this hasn't reached the volume of, say, the infamous poll tax.

We are sleepwalking into armageddon here.

WB

hedgehog

I agree that this is very worrying and that there seems to be very little complaint. Part of the reason, I suspect, why there is little in the way of complaint is that this is a scheme targeting the generally law abiding people in this country and so those most likely to engage in civil unrest are unconcerned. I think one of the most worrying quotes from the press coverage of the intention to, basically, cover the whole country with ANPR is the following from the CC of Herts:

Particularly important are associated vehicles," Mr Whiteley said. The term "associated vehicles" means analysing convoys of cars, vans or trucks to see who is driving alongside a vehicle that is already known to be of interest to the police.

Now I know we get a lot of "i never do anything wrong so it will not worry me" but the people making these posts are the very people in for the biggest shock when the system is used against them. The above quote from the CC gives some idea of one of the ways in which the innocent might get caught up in something that is nothing to do with them. The DVLA also admit to an approximate 30% error rate in their database and on top of this there is scope for a range of other mistakes.

The current ANPR system is installed in some police cars and police officers admit that it is normal to switch it off as it generates so many false alarms it soon becomes annoying. Is this really a system that the innocent would like attached to an automatic enforcement machine similar in nature to that we see with the speed cameras? In truth it is the innocent who have most to fear, the criminals who take steps to avoid detection will be the only ones with nothing to fear from this system.

I have been maintaining for some time that the satellite tracking and speed control systems were likely to be linked to number plate recognition and also to the RFID tags embedded in your number plate. When ISA (intelligent speed adaption) is mentioned most people say "oh i will just stop it working by covering the box with lead" but, of course, you will not be able to because there will be a range of interlocking systems all aimed at ensuring that you don't do the government out of their £££ and that you satisfy the greens by never exceeding 40mph. Disable your ISA and within a very short distance your car will stop operating as the RFID, ANPR and road charging systems decide that you are up to no good.

The other interesting aspect of the roll out of ANPR cameras is that they are to be placed every 400 yards on motorways. Now, if their only purpose is to see who uses the roads why not just place them on the slip roads? Well one likely use will be to ensure that your ISA system hasn't been disabled to allow you to exceed the speed limit but another reason for placing the cameras so close together is likely to be to limit your access to certain lanes of the motorway. We recently discovered that there is going to be a £5000 fine for using one of the "olympic" lanes that are to be created on roads across the UK for the forthcoming games. Once the games are over you will find that the legislation which enabled the fines for using lanes restricted to olympic visitors will also be used to control which lanes you and i can use on the motorways. This will be enforced by the ANPR cameras and your fine will be in the post should you be a criminal element.

It is likely that this, and other restrictions on the roads that you are actually allowed to drive along, will be sold under the banner of "congestion relief." However, as any engineer will tell you the roads in this country are being designed with congestion in mind in order to make congestion appear to be a problem when, in truth, it need not be. We may get to a situation where only those willing to pay a very high level of motor tax will be allowed to use the outside lane for example, or only those paying a this special tax will be allowed to use some roads in city areas. For the sake of changing the phasing of a few lights and doing other engineering works to increase congestion the government have provided themselves with a whole new income stream and a whole new form of control over the citizens.

Currently i think it is easy for many people to begin to see how all these systems are going to fit together, when i first posted about ISA, ANPR, RFID and so on some years back many thought i was a paranoid nutter who was making it all up, today most motorists who are interested in their right to keep driving are starting to see it coming. The most important thing to remember, the fundamental element behind all of this, is that the British Government have, in writing, committed themselves to removing access to private transport because it is socially divisive. In 1996 (yip, before New Labour) John Major signed the Copenhagen Declaration and since then we have had 10 years of anti-motoring legislation driven by the greens, the far left who object to personal freedom and a range of other pressure groups who want you out of your car. Never lose sight of the fact that ANPR, ISA, Congestion Charging, Road Charging, speed camera expansion, lowering of speed limits, closing of roads, lies about global warming etc. are all a means to an end and that end is that you will have no access to private transport. In the mean time what access you might currently have has to be made so unpleasant that private transport becomes oppressive and impractical for any purpose.

wacky.banana

Hedgehog,

You have just articulated the nightmare scenarios that are so obvious with the introduction of both ANPR and associated/linked systems. You are absolutely right, the criminal fraternity/terrorist/et al will always find ways round these constrictions and should/will have no concerns at their introduction.

I am at a loss as to why the general law-abiding pulbic, who will be most impacted by these changes and are most likely to be caught up in this as seriously inconvenienced innocents, are so quiet about it all. There has been virtually no protest about any of this at all!

Is it that people don't understand the implications or believe this will just pass them by or is the whole shooting match being introduced by stealth?

I hope the press get their act together on this quickly and start asking serious questions, or are they complicit in this also?

WB

matty01

Err , yeah, but if you really don't have anything to hide why are you so concerned? This tired old line is trotted out evey time because it has a point to make . It makes you sound like a criminal or uninsured driver trying to circumvent the law, if you are legal why the concern ,it is a valid point ....As Aldoud Huxley wrote decades ago [words to the effect of ] "...when the anthrax bombs start dropping people won't mind how much big brother snooping there is as long as the bombs stop dropping..."

Ok maybe i'm bieng a bit of a devils advocate and didn't read all the other threads blah blah....

GCollier

Hedgehog, for all your nice rhetoric, do you SERIOUSLY believe that (this side of the invention of the teleporter device) the government wants to remove access to private transport?

Government ministers may be many things, but stupidity - particularly when it comes to policies which spell oblivion for their career - is not one of them.

Gary.

Mr Sympathy

Well i can only speak from experience having been through 2 ANPR checks i saw down the line the assortment of nails and cars they stopped seemed good enough to me, i appreciate the concerns but these are theories as yet and do we really need the press escalating this out of all reasonable concern.

Is there any evidence from the use of this technology elsewhere in the world that bear fruit to hedghogs concerns?

wacky.banana

Matt,

Please read the whole thread carefully. You will then understand the concern. Those that these systems are meant to catch won't be bothered as they will circumvent them, those who are meant to be innocent won't get by without inconvenience.

I find it does help to read threads in whole and to get one's head around the debate before putting finger to keyboard.

WB

Mr Sympathy

Do you mean cameras just south of Junction 4A (M42) on foot bridge at bottom of slope, on northbound and southbound side? cropped up on here a few times, think they are SPECS linked to some others on M42 but no definite answer and not on a lot if they are.

Beastie

iTrader: (2)

Someone..Please tell me that the Data protection act can be used here to stop this in its tracks. I dont like the way this is all going and i personally am very unhappy about this total breach of our fundamental rights.

such as:

Data Protection Act 1998

Unlawful obtaining etc. of personal data
Unlawful obtaining etc. of personal data. 55. - (1) A person must not knowingly or recklessly, without the consent of the data controller-

(a) obtain or disclose personal data or the information contained in personal data, or
(b) procure the disclosure to another person of the information contained in personal data.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to a person who shows-

(a) that the obtaining, disclosing or procuring-
(i) was necessary for the purpose of preventing or detecting crime, or
(ii) was required or authorised by or under any enactment, by any rule of law or by the order of a court,
(b) that he acted in the reasonable belief that he had in law the right to obtain or disclose the data or information or, as the case may be, to procure the disclosure of the information to the other person,
(c) that he acted in the reasonable belief that he would have had the consent of the data controller if the data controller had known of the obtaining, disclosing or procuring and the circumstances of it, or
(d) that in the particular circumstances the obtaining, disclosing or procuring was justified as being in the public interest.
(3) A person who contravenes subsection (1) is guilty of an offence.

(4) A person who sells personal data is guilty of an offence if he has obtained the data in contravention of subsection (1).

(5) A person who offers to sell personal data is guilty of an offence if-

(a) he has obtained the data in contravention of subsection (1), or
(b) he subsequently obtains the data in contravention of that subsection.
(6) For the purposes of subsection (5), an advertisement indicating that personal data are or may be for sale is an offer to sell the data.

(7) Section 1(2) does not apply for the purposes of this section; and for the purposes of subsections (4) to (6), "personal data" includes information extracted from personal data.

(8) References in this section to personal data do not include references to personal data which by virtue of section 28 are exempt from this section

total act here: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/19980029.htm

Mr Sympathy

surely any police officer exercising his rights under section (i) (ii) (b) (c) and (d) can already do this with a PNC check, why is an ANPR check different? any police here like to comment on this?

hedgehog

ANPR, ISA, congestion creation schemes and the anti-car committment of the British Government is not based upon belief, it is based upon written evidence and documents which have been signed by our Government. The submissions on transport which ended up making up part of the Copenhagen Declaration, for example, were presented by an organisation called "The Car Free Cities Network." You will note that they didn't ask for contributions from the Association of British Drivers, or the AA, or the RAC or the RHA. Nope, the Government signed a document worded by The Car Free Cities Network.

Not only are they calling for the elimination of cars, hence the name, but they are also calling for an end to low density housing developments as these lead to the need for cars. They want everyone to live in high rise developments with bus stops at the door. Ring any bells with anyone? Anyone want to exchange their nice suburban semi for some of Comrade Stalin's collectivised housing?

Personally I can hardly believe that our government signed a document containing the following, my rhetoric presents quite a friendly image of the future compared to the one the government have actually signed up to:

Access to many low-density suburban areas is currently perceived to be cheaper and faster by car than by public transport, and the proportion of trips made by car in suburban areas is higher than in central cities.

We must encourage land use patterns that reduce the need for motorized travel and minimize the amount of public space allocated to cars. In particular, we must discourage the further development of extensive, low-density urban forms. The European city offers the possibility of a modern urban lifestyle with fewer cars and more open space for ecological and public use.

GC8

Hedgehog, some people just cant be helped. Others use their ignorance as a refuge, I wouldnt bother if I were you.

^OPM^

As the scottish one said (cant remember his name) " we're all doomed.."

GC8

"Doomed I tell you!"

GC8

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Sorry for late reply (I'm going through my user CP history )

It's both southbound and North bound...more closer to J5 IIRC

Can't be SPECS, as there is only a single set (set of 3- 1 for each lane) on each carriageway. SPECS needs at least another set half a mile down the road - and there isn't any.


Otherwise, I'd have no driving license by now

Not that I condone speeding, but when you have a trip to Plymouth and it's a sunny sunday morning at 5:00am on an empty road. I can shave off up to 45mins on my overall journey time